Average Joe

Good come back. This person and I are on decent terms but every now and then my being LDS seems to drive him a little crazy for some reason, and its time to defend the faith again.

The temple session is highly symbolic. Those presented represent both individuals and titles/types. Men and women have role models in the biblical creation story of Adam and Eve, and in the bible they were told to be fruitful, multiply, and subdue the Earth. This past general conference Elder Joseph W. Sitati of the seventy explained: "To subdue the earth and have dominion over every living thing is to control these things so they fulfill the will of God as they serve the purposes of His children. Subduing includes gaining mastery over our own bodies. It does not include being helpless victims of these things or using them contrary to the will of God." The earth in Genesis chapter describes the creation of the earth according to the temple pattern. The earth is a living thing - to be viewed as a temple in the wilderness for it travels a course from its fall to its redemption. We, being of the dust of the earth, have our bodies called temples by the apostle Paul. I light of that I like to consider Luke 17:20-21: "And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." There are more thoughts along this line but I'm not sure this is the direction you were seeking to go.

Rednecks ain't PC they say what they think

I suppose so...there are maybe one or two less mormons here in the heart of the bible belt so we have to settle for what abuse we can find

lol, perhaps...but not as interesting as the discussion with the supervisor who asked me if I was "saved"

I don't know how many of you live or have lived in the deep south but today was another one of those "defend the faith" days... A guy I know at work asked me if I was still LDS so naturally I said yes (Although I thought about telling him "no, I'm a Snuffer-ite now"), and waited for the test to begin. Round one (outside the men's room) - Him: "Do you still have the seer stone Smith used to translate the Book of Mormon?" Me: "I believe the angel Moroni took those back when Joseph had finished translating." Him: "Do you still have the plates the Book of Mormon was written from?" Me: "The angel Moroni took those back too when Joseph had finished translating." Him: "So you don't have anything?" Me: "We have the Book of Mormon, and in a future day the plates will be revealed again and the sealed portion will be translated." Him: "So no one else saw the plates but Smith?" Me: "The testimonies of eleven witnesses who saw the plates is in the front of the Book of Mormon" Him: "But no one saw the plates while he was translating?" Me: "Not that I'm aware of although several people took turns writing while he translated." Round two - Me (in a note we work in different parts of the plant): "You believe in the bible, and if so, is there an original version of any of the books or epistles of the bible in existence? What happened to the original versions - each one specifically? Do we still have the breastplate the Jewish high priest wore or the Urim and Thummin he used? Do we have the Ark of the covenant, the menorah, the altar of incense or the table of shewbread from the tabernacle in the wilderness or the temple in Jerusalem? So we don't have the original version of any of the books or epistles of the bible, we don't know what happened to them. We don't have the breastplate the Jewish high priest wore or the Urim and Thummin he used and we don't know what happened to them. We don't have the Ark of the covenant, the menorah, the altar of incense or the table of shewbread from the tabernacle in the wilderness or the temple in Jerusalem and we don't know what happened to them. That's OK, I believe the Book of Mormon is the word of God even the I don't have the gold plates or the Urim and Thummin, and I believe the bible is the word of God as far as its translated correctly." * Round three tomorrow (hopefully it will be something new and exciting for once)...you get this stuff much where you are?

Yes the source does but I think that was poorly worded (if not outright error I overlooked) I'll stand by the edit I made to this post today. Thanks for pointing that out about the source. :)

Fire away, I'm certain my comments often need to be taken with a grain of salt...if not a couple of advil The creation pattern is found through the bible and book of Mormon. And the creation pattern starting with Genesis chapter one is based on the temple pattern. I try to get to the temple as often as I can and was in the Atlanta temple the last week of May, and will likely be in the Columbia temple before months end. I prefer private discussion, meditation and prayer in the celestial room to elsewhere on the temple grounds.

The answer would be no posterity except for the highest degree. The lowest degree would not have been married in temple, just endowed. The middle would have had marriage in the temple but still have come up short of the highest degree of glory, therefore they would remain as angels having no increase. Sorry my post wasn't clearer (too busy watching my two fingers typing I guess) I have edited the post to clarify. Thanks for pointing out the error of my ways. :)

lol, split the royalties with me

my ward has always been Sacrament meeting first so no big deal here :)

thanks, just trying to put into words what nature does for me :)

Thank you very much. I may not be much for city life but I truly love nature.

I love this time of day when the sky is faintest blue and the sun lies a pale yellow-white glow above the distant trees with shadows fading with the sun into the coming dusk and the air lies still save barest breeze which stirs not bough but leaves and its quiet now when most have gathered in from the hot, humid of the day and the rise and fall of insect hums is all of day's remains

lol, my mind gets hung up on quirky things but they mean something to me :)

In the outer court or telestial kingdom there is glory comparable to the stars. Here we find the altar of sacrifice and the lavar. The outer court was open to the heavens. Those of the telestial kingdom will be required to learn the first law of heaven – obedience, for every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is lord. Both the brazan altar and the lavar of the outer court were made of bronze which is inferior to gold. The altar of incense and table of showbread of the holy place were both made of wood overlaid with gold and the menorah of solid gold. Within the holy of holies the cherubim facing each other across the mercy seat were of pure gold. The value of the materials used in workmanship increase as we go up each degree of glory. Within the telestrial kingdom are shown two major groups, those who are baptized and those who are not. From here arose like incense the savour of sacrifice unto the lord. This represents those who accept the sacrifice made by Christ on their behalf without accepting baptism itself. These are they who are ministered to by others. Within the bronze lavar was living water, the water of baptism. Herein the heavens were reflected. Washing here was necessary before entering the holy place. These are they who accept the need for sacrifice and the baptism of the lord. They minister to the unbaptized of the telestial kingdom.

If the holy of holies was the pattern of the celestial kingdom the holy place with its three pieces of furniture: the menorah, the altar of incense, and the table of Shewbread represents the pattern of the terrestrial kingdom. According to Clement of Alexandria and Philo Judaeus, the seven lamps of the golden menorah represented the seven classical planets in this order: the Moon, Mercury, Venus, the Sun, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn. This is description of the terrestrial kingdom shows greater bodies as opposed to the telestial kingdom which is comparable to that of the stars. The Menorah represented light and knowledge, without which the rest of the holy place would remain in darkness. “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.” (John 8:12) It also symbolized the tree of life with its branches looking like that of an almond tree, containing buds, blossoms and flowers. The tree of life and light of the world are both symbolic of Christ. Within most temples we follow a level linear progress from room to room. However, in reality it’s a linear progression with one room/kingdom above the next. There was a hole in the roof of the tabernacle’s holy place above altar of incense which would have allowed the smoke of the incense [as described in Revelations 8:3 as “And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.”] to ascend from the terrestrial the celestial kingdom. The table of showbread held 12 loaves of bread representing each of the 12 tribes. Each of the loaves wouldn’t be changed out with fresh bread weekly and the old bread was eaten by the priests. So in this sense, the menorah represented the higher degree within the terrestrial kingdom, giving light to the other two degrees. The altar of incense came next in importance as the incense was offered daily. The showbread being the lowest being eaten weekly. Members of the terrestrial kingdom will have been baptized having washed at the lavar of the outer court before entering into the terrestrial. The level of degree within the terrestrial apparently has much in common with service and importance of the service. Just some thoughts...

The Bible gives indication that Moses was caught up in the Shekinah of God in verses such as Exodus 24:15-18. While in the presence of God (in Heaven?) Moses was shown heavenly items to which he was to use as the pattern for their earthly counterparts: Exodus 25:8-9 - "And let them make Me a sanctuary that I may dwell among them. According to the pattern of the pattern of the tabernacle and the pattern of all its furnishings, just so you shall make it." The book of Hebrews attests to the same thing: Hebrews 8:5 - "... who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the Tabernacle. For He said 'See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain'." The Prophet encouraged the Saints to learn of these things for themselves, beseeching them to go forward and “search deeper and deeper into the mysteries of Godliness.” J. Smith, Jr., Words, 12 May 1844, p. 366; J. Smith, Jr., Documentary History, 12 May 1844, 6:363. These are the Prophet’s words in context (J. Smith, Jr., Teachings, 2 May 1844, p. 364): The Savior has the words of eternal life. Nothing else can profit us… I advise all to go on to perfection, and search deeper and deeper into the mysteries of Godliness. As their reward, the faithful are promised: “And to them will I reveal all mysteries, yea, all the hidden mysteries of my kingdom from days of old.” (D&C 76:7). So, what of the kingdoms of glory according to the temple pattern? The Celestial Kingdom D&C 131:1-4 reads as follows: In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]; And if he does not, he cannot obtain it. He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase. As above, so below, and in Exodus 25:18-22 we read: 18 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat. 19 And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof. 20 And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be. 21 And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee. 22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony… Within the Holy of Holies (the Celestial Kingdom) are three beings: God is “above [higher]” and “between [in the midst of]” the two cherubims. Lowest degree or cherubim with Endowment only: Men and women who attain the first ritual degree of the celestial kingdom, inheriting the blessings of the “sons of Moses,” are privileged to come to the veil of the temple to “behold the face of God” and enter into celestial glory. This temple blessing anticipates the day when the faithful will enter into God’s presence in actuality. However, attaining this degree in the ordinances is not sufficient to qualify one for the full blessings of exaltation. Those who come only thus far and subsequently refuse the patriarchal order of marriage are described in revelation as “ministering servants” who “remain separately and singly, without exaltation… to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.” Middle degree or cherubim with the patriarchal order of marriage: Those who have previously qualified to enter within the veil become “the seed of Abraham“ when they attain the second celestial degree, the patriarchal order of marriage, with its promise of eternal family relationships and a “continuation of the seed.” However, while the middle degree would have had marriage in the temple they would have still have come up short of the highest degree of glory, therefore they (or the unworthy spouse) would remain as angels having no increase. Highest degree as “kings and priests [or “queens and priestesses”] of the Most High God”: Finally, according to the Prophet Joseph Smith, those who attain the third celestial degree, “keeping all the commandments and obeying all the ordinances of the house of the Lord,” obtain the “fulness of the priesthood” through their becoming “kings and priests [or “queens and priestesses” of the Most High God,” with responsibility for “the church and kingdom” according to the “power of Melchizedek.” Thus, in the words of William Clayton, they are (ritually) “prepared for the enjoyment of a fulness of the third heavens,” in other words, the enjoyment of the highest of the three degrees within the celestial kingdom. (source)

Grandpa, c'mon inside and take your meds :)

or there is another option. become a church discipline problem and your bishop will contact your new bishop for/about you

C'mon, if you really wanna get real, its gotta be a WWF cage match...or matched dueling pistols

yeah, I've been arrested a few times by good cops...the bad ones usually accept the bribe and I go home

FIGHT! FIGHT!! FIGHT!!! and remember, Marquess of Queensberry Rules!

Welcome to the site :)

Actually, J. Golden was mentioned because his quotes always get a reaction In his day he could reach pioneer farmers and ranchers the way other other GA's couldn't. Now since everyone seems to be quoting chapter and verse here I'll toss out a few (to see if I can do anymore damage to what little good reputation I may have left around here) 2 Ne. 28:1 states: “And now, behold, my brethren, I have spoken unto you, according as the Spirit hath constrained me…” Speaking of the power or influence of the priesthood, D&C 121:43 states: “Reproving betimes [immediately] with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy.” So leaving J. Golden for now, how did the Holy Ghost constrain Paul? In Galatians 2:11-14 we read: 11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face [Reproving betimes with sharpness], because he was to be blamed. 12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. 14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? So Paul dressed down the head of the church in front of witnesses. Was he out of line? Peter may have become used to it since in Matt. 16:22-23 we read: 22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. 23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. How would you like to be called Satan and offensive? So, was this conversation wrong (Reproving betimes with sharpness) or necessary to get everyone on the same page – or in “unity” as the thread is titled? It seems to me that everyone trying to be all PC manic doesn’t get the heavy lifting done in the church. As for this site, they give warnings and ban folks so, remember to try and keep it between the lines and outta the ditches. :)