the Ogre

Seemed to be an observation.

ALL Double, double toil and trouble; Fire burn and cauldron bubble. Third Witch Scale of dragon, tooth of wolf, Witches' mummy, maw and gulf Of the ravin'd salt-sea shark, Root of hemlock digg'd i' the dark, Liver of blaspheming [Mormon], Gall of goat, and slips of yew Silver'd in the moon's eclipse, Nose of Turk and [martyr’s] lips, Finger of birth-strangled babe Ditch-deliver'd by a drab, Make the gruel thick and slab: Add thereto a tiger's chaudron, For the ingredients of our cauldron.

Ah, so then your issue is with the text and possibly translation. Didn't you make this point a coupla weeks ago?

But is having morals and being in Emma's UCRR the same thing? I don't think so. We're told to be in the world but not of the world and if your world is a bunch of people at church who think they have the right to legislate behavior, shouldn't we be looking another way?The Evangelicals are constantly telling us that we are still just a bunch of cultists. If they are the mainstream, do we have to want to be like them? You want to be part of the Christian Fundamentalist Political Movement even if they have told us we are not welcome and in fact part of the problem go right ahead. But don't assume that if I don't think they are such a nice bunch that I don't have morals.

I'm sorry, but man you lit that torch on your own above and other then that (and I hate wearing white, you can dress yourself just like you choose to interpret statistics) it sounds like we agree.

An interesting thing in the scriptures (another little gem for ya): G-d told the Isrealites to enter Cannan and kill off every one there and all sorts of things that nowadays gets one branded a hoard of German genocidal maniacs. Of course they didn't do it right, but it turns out those who failed were the ones in the wrong. What the L-rd says is okay and what society says is different; what's new? An angel of the L-rd comes up to me and says "Ogre, take your oldest son Andy over there up to the top of the Y and shoot him as a an example for all of Isreal" and you want to know if I would do it? Man, what kind of question is that? Are you asking if Abraham had second thoughts or something? Are you trying to be clever and say something like you are screwed no matter what you do. One way you are in hock to the L-rd and the other I'm spending twenty years in Blanding waiting for a firing squad to be assembled. Not everyone does what Angels say. Look at Laman and Lemuel. Nice Jewish boys in town for the weekend and an angel tells them to stop being a pair of momzers and all they they can think to do is grumble like a bunch of passive-aggressive Utah-Mormons unhappy about cleaning the church on Saturday before church. Who knows what I would do? I'm not Abraham and Andy is not Issac willing to be a sacrifice (he barely does the dishes when I ask him). Work harder at irony when you ask these kind of questions will ya?

I like this name. It represents well the societies of the religious that like to legislate behavior and social codes. I wonder if this is the great church discussed in Revelations.

Musashi, I was an exec in a BYU Ward (BYU Asian Ward 1990-1992) when I reactivated and our Bishopric didn't even pray about it. As far as I could tell at the beginning of fall semester, the bishop gave out callings on a lottery basis as he didn't even know half the people in the ward. When I was a Sunday School President the bishop always called those I recommended and I didn't pray, I just guessed they would like to do it or had the gumption and perseverance to handle the 12-14 year olds or patience to deal with sister so-and-so whose answers were always masked attempts to look down at some other member of the ward. On the patriarchal blessing bit, me and three of my five brothers went in on the same day and although the wording wasn't exactly the same (and we did compare because we were a bunch of rotten little twerps), they said the same stuff with only slight variation (I didn't go on a mission like my blessing said I would--I was a drunk instead--but my brothers did). I don't know what to tell you. I don't know if there is some type of SOP regarding church processes like this unlike what goes on in the temple or how the church excommunicates people. Sorry if I wasn't a bigger help. I liked your post very much and appreciate the sincerety of your question, but I'm just one of those members where it is good that the church is true. My whole life, I've been a kind of dipstick. Aaron the Ogre

I find the Left Behind series an interesting and highly approachable exercise in theological speculation. I just ordered the entire series on Amazon. I am really pumped to see what all the excitement is all about.

PC,that is not a bad analysis. One of the problems with LDS people (at large) is not exploring deeply what goes on or actually forming a testimony independent of society. Many members do not read deeply the scriptures or conference talks and because of this their faith is easily shaken. Many members do read carefully and study carefully all the new "revelations" and "revelators" and can discern (without the help of some pathetic apologist) what is at stake. I do believe it often requires a certain level of commitment. The Book of Mormon describes the tribulations that come upon many people who don't spend the amount of time it takes to gain a solid testimony. What did the S-viour say about building on sandy foundations? Oh well.

Sorry,I know the issues are often thicker, but what you say is a myth is the truth for others. Think what you want. Maybe, you know more. Personally, I want someone to just be honest with why they left and now decide to hate those who stay. Most of people's reasons are so coated in dishonesty it's ironic. I know a lot of people who have left the church because they dislike the way the church treats homosexuals, they dislike that there are so many members in the military, President Hinckley has not taken an openly hostile position regarding the war in Iraq, because President Hinckley does not have a pet (an actual post on this site), because they found out the church practiced polygamy, or whatever else the reason (MMM, anti-feminism, etc.). My little brother says he left because some members think it is okay to abuse the environment because the L-rd will repair nature after the second coming, not because he was already smoking, drinking, doing meth, fathering children out of wedlock and deserting them because it wasn't his fault the girl wasn't on the pill and committing petty crimes. Why couldn't he say, I'm leaving the church because I just want to treat society and myself destructively without feeling guilty? A close friend left because her bishop sided with her ex after he raped and beat her. I can understand that, but has that got to do with the faith of others? I know many women who have left the church because their bishops tried to stay neutral between disputing spouses. I know others who have left because their rotten husbands were let back in after an excommunication while remaining the same crudcicle and hypocrite he always was. What has this got to do with the doctrine of the church? I dislike with my whole soul the Society of Mormons (I do use one of the words I hate because it does represent well Utah's culture of middle-class oppression of people on the fringe), but I am not going to lets some yutz at church and his goofy sense of propriety dictate my testimony even if he goes out of his way to make my children feel unwelcome because they are of mixed race and he uses McConkie to defend himself. He has his own reward just like I will if I let him and others like him get in the way of my salvation. Whatever, I think most personal apostasy comes from pride and choosing to be offended. You want to hold the church accountable for my close-mindedness, my opinion, and my personal faults, go right ahead, be just as self-righteous as that yutz in church. You have a different opinion, enjoy it, but don't facilitate another's dishonesty or cheapen their childishness with validation. Yeah, whatever. Maybe, you know more. Aaron the Ogre

Hasn't Wal-Mart been selling this kind of stuff for years?

What the blazes is MLA, APA, or CMS!!?? I mean... Obviously the madness needs to come to an end! DUH!! But the maddness just doesn't stop there. What about Turabian adn AP? Personally, I vote MLA, but then I'm an English Major so I've practically got the stupid thing memorized.Aaron the Ogre

great post Aaron the OGRE (a fatter, basketball-fan relation to troll)

Well PC, considering your original question and the response from TheL-rdSaves, I would say the answer is Tequilla and the worm. Honestly, a lot of the Utah locals who are mad at the Church are mad for reasons that have nothing to do with theology, but the common Chr-stian plague of "someone in church was rude and judgemental." All faiths have the problem, but since it is so hard to shake LDS bullheadedness at times, antis will take their "concern" for the LDS soul to extremes. Aaron the Ogre

Yed,You are the reason I came back. That was one of the greatest comments of all times. You are truely the best!!! Aaron the Ogre Amen

JUst use green or purple to make that jaded part not sound so red.

I have a problem with many of the insinuations of the current immigration debate. Mostly it smacks of reincarnated racism. Personally, I don't care legal or not, immigrants are here. My parents have found through geneological research that most of my Scotch-Irish and Jewish ancestors would be considered illegal aliens by today's standards. Is anyone going to send me home? Home to where? There is a woman at work who was recently asked where in Mexico she came from. She said Chicago. The flustered person reasked: what about your parents? Dearborn and Chicago. And their parents? Chicago and Michigan, maybe a great-grandma from Columbus. She now lives in American Fork and her husband is from New York, but his grandparents came from Puerto Rico. Niether of them speak Spanish nor do they have Spanish given names. Nor do their three children. Does it matter? Should the discussion have even come up? It doesn't matter because it did. The problem is that this woman's presence in the US might somehow be considered questionable because she is Hispanic. I have a Scottish friend who is here illegally, but he is never asked for his green-card or passport. The construction company he works for pays cash and his wife takes care of the taxes. He doesn't even hide that he came here on vacation and didn't return to Scotland. Most people think it is cool that he is here. So why not for Hispanics? Like I said: a type of reincarnated racism. The funny thing about it is that both major political parties sound just as racist as the other regardless of how enlightened they seem to be. The real question should be how to close the supposedly genderless and raceless administrative/governmental policies that make coming to the US such a smart move by those who suffer from various work-ethic disablities and entitlement addictions. Solve those loop-holes (physical, government, administrative or whatever), prosecute the "natives" who perpetuate them and the discussion and problem will go away.

Yed, don't be angry. When I read a lot of stuff that the antis bring up it is just a review of old news. I' BIC and bothered to investigate and examine what the antis have had to say, but have recognized spin for what it is (on both sides). This is where I dislike the aplogists, why try to explain away/refocus the mysteries... they exist and in most cases occam's razor provides the reasonable dissection of anti-logic.Investigation of the mysteries of LDS history/quasi-theology is a personal thing. The people who are disallusioned are those who were prepared to leave anyway. One of the best things is to not rely on DeseretBook for an explanation of things LDS. I am excited about the new data coming to light. I am not worried that the content will somehow squish my fragile testimony, though it might be a fear others have. I think what is available should be brought to light and let it stand for itself. Aaron the Ogre I'm with you on the hiding and omiting and also what many LDS scholars do in confusing LDSishness through the application of logical tools found in the anthropology, literary theory, and philosophy of the academy. No one needs another to gain a testimony beyond the Holy Ghost and the Saviour. Crazy,I bought Rough Stone Rolling and a number of other LDS books from the Lindon, Utah Wal-Mart. Aaron the Ogre

Yep, that step by step precept upon precept thing.

In 1991, my then wife and I and our three children went to Korea for vaca. My kids were 30mos, 18mos, and 6mos. My daughter, then 18mos, got very sick on the plane and would not stop crying. There was nothing we could have done. Her diarrhea was so bad she used all the pampers the stews and we had (Korea Airlines). The other two were really good and two old Korean women on the flight volunteered to help us and over all the Asians on the flight were very understanding, but an American decided to scream at us for an hour midway through the flight for daring to take a sick child on the flight.There was nothing we could do. We followed the directions on all the medicine bottles we had and a doctor on board said there was nothing else that could be done. Babies just get sick sometimes. The irate fellow traveler would not let up. He accused us of all sorts of terrible things and said we shouldn't even be considering a long international flight with kids that age and should have waited until they were at least old enough to know how to entertain themselves. We were not the only people with kids on board and one of the other fathers stepped-up to "help" this guy learn to shut himself up. People need to travel sometimes and often the have to take their kids. If you do not like it, start chartering your own flights or something. Since then, I have made that same flight more then fifteen times for personal and business reasons. I do not mind crying babies and one day hope to be able to help out to compensate for the horrible experience I foisted on my fellow travelers. The people I hate on flights: drunks, loudmouths, cell-phone users, and impatient businessmen (usually the biggest [...] on a plane). When you travel, you have to recognize the rights of the other people on the plane and when that other person is a child, be prepared for what children do.

I like the romantic idea of this notion, except for: "When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves" (NIV.Gen.3:6-7).Opened from what to what? Only nudity? They were already aware of everything else? Except the nudity bit? I buy that Satan could have been lying when he said: "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil" (NIV.Gen.3:5). Maybe Satan lied, he is known for having a pretty broad dishonesty streak in him. My point is, we don't know what they knew or didn't know (except the nudity bit, we know about that).

Sorry for getting in the debate halfway, but I've been busy. Who are we to determine the sin in others other then than the sin we commit ourselves. I cannot be held accountable for the sins of Adam and Eve and as such nor should I be concerned. " believe will be punished for [myown] sins, and not for Adam's transgression" (Article of Faith 2). As such, why should I be concerned about the minutia? I like the idea of "willing" pawns. Like yourself, PC, you have accepted a call to be a minister. Could not Adam and Eve done the same (a type and shadow of reading between the lines)? Sounds good. I don't know. I think you are reading a lot into it. The account is fairly sparse. We don't know everything that went on, just the highlights. The only way LDS theology regarding the fall is if one believes Joseph Smith is a prophet of G-d, and I do.I do accept the idea of personal beliefs and interpretation, but one must recognize h/she is reading between the lines.

Perhaps we agree???? I feel that if someone cannot determine truth from error concerning dinosaurs for which there is so much empirical evidence - how can they be trusted with things of G-d and eternity for which there is no empirical evidence to do a sanity check. The Traveler Right. The then stretch (as you imply) is to realize the actuality of both G-d and ancient geologic history and that scripture and science do not of necessity contradict each other. Religion and science are both important. Without science and engineering we would not have many of the modern conveniences we have today and without religion there would be no hope. What is terrifying is the number of people who have given up on hope and eschew science and reason and only pursue hedonistic self-destruction. Aaron the Ogre

PC,Thanks for the response, I appreciate. I was being a bit strong, I apologize. I was a bit frustrated, though. I think if someone knew the basis of LDS thought regarding the apostasy, then why the drawn out discussion of last week. The deafness I was and am referring has to do with: the truth (regarding LDS belief) is available in clear language, so why then is the discussion? Is it a type of baiting, I sometimes wonder? I don't know. I dislike it when I get beat over the head with our (LDS) supposed ignorance. One way there is a type proof of apostasy is the lack of unity or lack of interest in unity and also the actual reformation (why did it happen at all if everything in the Catholic Church was correct?). Sure, I don't memorize large tracts of scripture like many people do, but I do know what it is that The L-rd teaches as the gospel. I think if there is going to be some type of question of LDS theology, shouldn't it come from within instead of being crammed down our throats by people who do not generally even think we are Christians regardless of the evidence or truth-claims otherwise? It is just frustrating. Sorry if I came across so strongly. Aaron the Ogre