What's in a name?

Now Eowyn . . . my parental guidance to my kids is far more explicit than anyone has brought up on this topic so far.  Who's PG rating are we using?  
 
I have this little analogy that has bounced around in my head for a decade or so that helps me frame, and express, the mental anguish I go though at times.  Perhaps it's silly to others, but it is meaningful to me.
 
You know how when you play in the snow without gloves (or sometimes even with gloves that get wet), when your fingers start to get cold and they hurt?  But after a while, your fingers become numb, and you can tolerate making and throwing a couple more snowballs with little breaks between to keep the frostbite at bay.  But then . . . when you start to warm your hands back up . . . owww!  It hurts to thaw out!  You are ok being warm, and you are sort of ok when numb, but that transition period from one state to the other is a bugger.  
 
That's what the mental anguish is like to go from warm and well, to being cold and alone. There is a period of time there when the pain is almost unbearable. But finally it becomes numb.  Thankfully, I've become pretty much numb lately.  I don't look forward to trying to rewarm. That hurts too.  I'd rather remain numb the rest of my life, thank you, and not go through the freeze/thaw cycle any more.  I've been through it too many times, and have no interest in more of the same pain. 
 
The exercise of posting here and receiving feedback has been a fruitful one.  I'm not sure I've actually learned anything new, but I do believe I understand some things on deeper levels, and with greater clarity.  Having become numb, I'm also not so myopically focused on the tree trunk right in front of me, but can step to the side and see more of the forest.  
 
My internal responses to some posts were an unexpected surprise to me.  I used to participate in forums. I used to have friends online and offline. I used to be recognized as a leader in one of my hobbies.  All of that changed about 4.5 years ago, shortly after remarrying.  I was cut off from those sources that used to fill my bucket, at least some.  I thought I was ok, self-sufficient enough, and honestly am not one that needs much if any recognition.  But, with those sources of fulfillment forcefully cut off, and then the cessation of the primary way I felt accepted and loved in marriage, my bucket ran dry.  It had been dry for some time now. It took a few drops of compassion and caring from posters to wet the bucket bottom for me to clearly see how parched and dry it was. 
 
I'm in the process of making sure to put my oxygen mask back on before continuing to help others get theirs on.  
 
Ladies, it isn't the act itself, or the pleasure derived that is nearly so important to the stereotypical man than it is about feeling loved.  It's just that many men (esp worldly men) don't comprehend it is all rooted in attempts to find meaning and love.  I'm sure those versed in reading have heard complaints of unwillingness, or begrudged giving making it bad. The "just lie there" or "get it over with" dilemma.  For this man, it is the act of giving herself to me, willingly, wanting to give to me (even if not wanting the act) that tells me in no uncertain terms that I and my feelings are important to her. That I am wanted, valued, and she cares about my happiness.  The withdrawal of that love (or worse - demeaning because of the desire to feel love that way), combined with physical drives, can really cause extreme mental anguish. Just like you want (need) your SO to give compliments and show appreciation out of genuine concern and love for you, he wants (needs) you to give yourself to him.  You don't have to want it. You don't have to pretend anything. You simply have to be totally sincere that you want him happy and feeling loved.  If you don't fill his bucket that way, don't be too surprised when he tries finding surrogate feelings of worth through power, control, or other ways the typically emotionally unaware male flails about to find some feeling of value. 

Abuse is no excuse. It absolutely isn't. And I feel qualified to say that, having been sexually abused myself for several years when young, and living with and overcoming the ramifications of that. The implicatIons still color some of my personality traits (such as being reluctant to unilaterally seek my gratification, even if spouse is encouraging it - that is a turn off when for many it is fine).
As heinous as such abuse is, it is the individual that chooses what to do with it. Are they going to make lemmonaid,or continue to suck on sour lemons? I know that if I were more emotionally mature two decades ago when the abuse really hit me (about 12 years after it ceased), I could have moved on much faster, healed better, etc. But I'm certainly no Elizabeth Smart. Nor was I entirely willing to wallow in self pity and make excuses either (although I certainly did from time to time!).
I absolutely don't intend to criticize her for not moving on yet. We all have our own paths and capabilities, And no one is wrong or better. It just is what it is, and progress is not a matter of comparison to others, only to our former self. What matters is for you to understand who she is, and what her capabilities are, and if that is ok to you. Will you really have endless patience if you marry and she decides to wallow in self pity long term? Does her difficulty in progressing indicate an overall incapability to cope? Or was the abuse particularly heinous and the amount of progress so far indicates she can handle any thing life can dish up?
I'm guessing based on your post, and the anxious/avoidint attachment (breakup - makeup, breakup - makeup, repeat), she is more of the type (currently) to wallow and make excuses, and not tackle the issue internally where it really resides. That is concerning for success in marriage, where challenges are sure to arise.

I think a lot of the replies here are too harsh.  The OP has obviously been working to overcome the problem, has taken all the steps one should take, and yet some of you guys are still beating him up over it.  What more does he need to do?  The man came for advice.
 
It's true we are only getting one side of the story, but there was something very telling... The wife's refusal to accompany him in marriage counseling.  The path to recovery from something like this has to be a marital team effort.  Handling something like this alone is bad mojo.  A marriage is a team.  Yes, I get that she's hurt and feels betrayed and all that, but she needs to work through those feelings as well, and obviously isn't doing a very good job of it on her own.
 
exmisionaro92, you are right that her threatening divorce at this point are unhelpful and inappropriate.  For what it's worth, it's probably a type of lashing out... She feels hurt, and on some level rejected.  This is a very common way for a spouse to feel of they've been cheated on or if the other person has been consuming porn.  They feel like they've been rejected in favor of someone more attractive.  This might be why the divorce card keeps getting played.  Maybe she wants you to feel rejected too.
 
I don't know her, so I don't know the best way to handle it, but clearly it isn't helping.  She DOES need counseling along with you, because she is causing greater damage at this point, rather than being part of the solution.

Thank you for the reminder, and the generous thoughts.  I really have grown rather impatient. Esp as of late.  Started to think that a couple years of asking and waiting was "more than enough". Didn't do that consciously, but obviously I have done so. Not a constructive thought process, as you eloquently illustrated.  

Beefche . . . somehow you have been able to see past all of the emotional drivel and understand the core matters I was seeking help on. Not sure how you did that, but for it I thank you.  Even if you have no answers beyond what has been offered, feeling understood by someone, anyone, has meant the world to me this day.  Thank you.  

I believe that there are some things in life that we must endure. And each person's trials are different than our own. Our trials in life are for our learning and experience. And some of those trials will be with us all of our life. So, I believe that some things we may never understand in this life. Your thorn may be with you your entire life and you may not understand why while you are in this life. 
 
I'm just at the beginning of my understanding of faith in a different way than I believed before my marriage. Faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of something. You may understand one or two things about this trial, but to truly have faith, you will not understand or know it completely. 
 
So, perhaps, what you need to learn is to simply endure it well. Learn what it means to live with faith. Learn what it means to truly rely on the Lord and His laws. Learn what it means to continue to love and have charity for others (including your wife, children, neighbor, etc.) even when it seems we are being beaten. Learn about the Lord's compensation for what we have lost. 

What's in a Name,
 
Hi, I don't have much in the way of advice... I sincerely wish I had a silver bullet for your problems, but I don't... and honestly I question if one exists.... 
 
I'm writing you this as a person who's have BPD, been sexually assaulted, had all sorts of issues related to intimacy, and have a huge libido that sometimes goes unfilled (yes, that does happen to women too).  These issues can be daunting- life controlling... but they can also be healed.  "Healing" doesn't mean the scars vanish, but that they become scars in the background, not the dictators of our daily activities.  
 
I liked much of your posts, including your introspective can't see the forest because you can only see the trees.   I remember that point: the pain when you don't know why things are, can't see a way out, hurt so badly-- just wanting it to be over or at least to know WHY it is you're here.  For me, the urge to know why or to rush the journey became maddening-- a self-destructive obsession.  I kept trying to rush it: to force a seed to grow on my timetable.  I didn't know how to sit and be still: how to trust in the Lord when I didn't know what the course was- what the seed would become or when.  That not knowing, that blind trust-- to not know why or how long, that was so much harder for me.  Finally, the seed did bloom, and I beheld a beautiful flower that was me- a beauty I had no idea existed and growth I cannot express.
 
I cannot tell you of a silver bullet, but do send my sympathies, prayers, and hugs.  Hang in there, trust in the Lord: He knows what's going on.

Weak sauce or not, your thoughts are appreciated Vort.  
 
 
 
Hi blunt!  How are you? I’m long-winded and rambling.  Sorry about that.  Well, generally so.  The answer to those questions would take way more than even I’m willing to type out.  
 
First, I concluded it was right as we got along so well, had similar spiritual and family goals, etc. All the typical college sweethearts stuff.  Not for her looks, although I was attracted to her, not for money, fame, intimacy, or anything in particular. We were friends, dated, and it fit.  And Heavenly Father said it was right.  Kinda hard for me to rationalize in post-mortem analysis of flawed motivations when HF affirmed the choice to me.
 
Second, I wish it were possible to convey what it is like to court someone that expresses symptoms of having BPD.  It’s readily described on the net, so I won’t try.  As I said to Anatess, I wasn’t looking for any problem to be solved. Just an innate desire to be wed on two people’s part, seeing great signs of compatibility in ALL areas of life, and, as Holland says, holding hands and jumping in with both feet hoping for the best.  Having a second chance to make right, I sought out all the advice and wisdom I could, from books, family, friends, bishop, etc.   I have no delusions that I was perfect and whole.  But I know I was a whole lot better of a person from my refiner’s fire than I had ever been in life.  I’ve asked myself many times if my motivations and desires were flawed, or I missed warning signs.  I have a hard time concluding I should have been more skeptical and not trusted so much.  Honestly, I didn’t have the life experience to see the deception, let alone even begin to comprehend it.  But analyzing that further doesn’t really do much to change the here and now, does it?  
 
Of course I’ve thought of the second question many times over.  Pondered it much.  Bluntly asked it with a real intent to understand.  I get I was, at times, quite difficult in the first marriage.  I’m sensing people are not used to my level of being forthright about my flaws though, and are likely to over-judge that.  It is what it is. I’m generally glad to take my part, own up to it as best I can, and try not be critical of the other side.  No abuse. No cheating. No porn.  Squeaky clean faithfulness.  As attentive and loving as I knew how to be, or was capable of.  Bringing flowers, courting, trying to resolve differences, very respectfully and considerate.  But a jerk when emotionally hurt.  And withdrawn when attacked.  We had the discussions about why.  There was talk of the need for filling her emotional needs first, etc, etc, etc. And I’d do that in all sincerity.  And almost nothing in return or consideration of my emotional desires.  She’s a good person. I don’t want to cast her in a bad light. But not everyone wants physical intimacy.  And some people have grown up with guilt and shame that clouds their perspective long after intimacy is right and good. 
 
I’m well aware of the adage that good relations begins in the kitchen (or laundry room, etc).  There is some truth to that of course.  But there is no way to slice cheese so thin that it doesn’t have two sides.  Happy wife, happy life is a sexist fallacy.  In reality, it should be: happy spouse, happy house.  BOTH spouses need to look out for, and go out of their way to meet the emotional needs of the other.   I’m no stellar romantic that does great at courting.  But when you have an honest discussion with your wife about why she doesn’t want to be intimate, and you come up with a plan together to address her emotional needs, and you follow that plan for months without reciprocation. . . well, I simply wasn’t that strong or great back then.  Not sure I am now either, but I’m much further along than before. 
 
With the second, I have asked repeatedly.  At first it was nothing that I had done, and there was no explanation why.  Over time, hormones were suspected, but tests indicate no issues.  Hormones are certainly a part, but they are not clinically out of whack despite the physical changes indicating something has changed.  As I’ve tried to discuss (at times, failing miserably and inquiring out of bitterness and hurt, and at times in all sincere loving, looking for mutual solutions) it further over time, it has not gone well.  It’s because of that time I did x two years ago, I was an a this other time, you failed to give me what I wanted there, and a whole litany of all the ways I’m a flawed human that no one would ever want to be in bed with.  I don’t ask any longer, as it has not gone well for a long time, no matter how kindly I approach the subject.   I understand why she does this.  It’s defensiveness to ward off feelings of inadequacy.  Still, it’s not anything I dare venture into any longer. 
 
I have a thousand more thoughts, but I’m sure I’ve written too much already.  

Interesting... when women sometimes show less then desirable actions or characteristics, and men call them on it... They will be told that "men just don't understand why a woman might act that way"  And that men need to practice greater empathy and understanding of how a woman is.
 
When men show less then desirable actions or characteristics, and women call them one it...The idea that women "just don't understand why a man might act that way" is dismissed and the men are told they need to repent and step up.

Your usage of the word "want" here basically tells me that you (unsurprisingly...as no woman really can) do not understand the male libido/sex drive. It's not a "need". But it also is not equivelent to "want"...like missing your favorite tv show or something. It is a literal strong biological drive. In some (particularly younger men) it is exceedingly strong.
 
 
Why should lawfully married men be shamed for feeling they have some level of entitlement to at least some sexual relations with their spouses? (And that goes for women too). Heaven forbid we expect sex from our wives! How dare we?!?
 
 
This is certainly true. But it doesn't change the reality of whether men become like this when "deprived" of a strong biological drive when they have every reason to expect that drive to be satisfied at some level. I do not mean to say that it is justified to respond this way. But it should be at least somewhat understandable with even a basic understanding of how powerful that drive is.

Weak sauce or not, your thoughts are appreciated Vort.  
 
 
 
Hi blunt!  How are you? I’m long-winded and rambling.  Sorry about that.  Well, generally so.  The answer to those questions would take way more than even I’m willing to type out.  
 
First, I concluded it was right as we got along so well, had similar spiritual and family goals, etc. All the typical college sweethearts stuff.  Not for her looks, although I was attracted to her, not for money, fame, intimacy, or anything in particular. We were friends, dated, and it fit.  And Heavenly Father said it was right.  Kinda hard for me to rationalize in post-mortem analysis of flawed motivations when HF affirmed the choice to me.
 
Second, I wish it were possible to convey what it is like to court someone that expresses symptoms of having BPD.  It’s readily described on the net, so I won’t try.  As I said to Anatess, I wasn’t looking for any problem to be solved. Just an innate desire to be wed on two people’s part, seeing great signs of compatibility in ALL areas of life, and, as Holland says, holding hands and jumping in with both feet hoping for the best.  Having a second chance to make right, I sought out all the advice and wisdom I could, from books, family, friends, bishop, etc.   I have no delusions that I was perfect and whole.  But I know I was a whole lot better of a person from my refiner’s fire than I had ever been in life.  I’ve asked myself many times if my motivations and desires were flawed, or I missed warning signs.  I have a hard time concluding I should have been more skeptical and not trusted so much.  Honestly, I didn’t have the life experience to see the deception, let alone even begin to comprehend it.  But analyzing that further doesn’t really do much to change the here and now, does it?  
 
Of course I’ve thought of the second question many times over.  Pondered it much.  Bluntly asked it with a real intent to understand.  I get I was, at times, quite difficult in the first marriage.  I’m sensing people are not used to my level of being forthright about my flaws though, and are likely to over-judge that.  It is what it is. I’m generally glad to take my part, own up to it as best I can, and try not be critical of the other side.  No abuse. No cheating. No porn.  Squeaky clean faithfulness.  As attentive and loving as I knew how to be, or was capable of.  Bringing flowers, courting, trying to resolve differences, very respectfully and considerate.  But a jerk when emotionally hurt.  And withdrawn when attacked.  We had the discussions about why.  There was talk of the need for filling her emotional needs first, etc, etc, etc. And I’d do that in all sincerity.  And almost nothing in return or consideration of my emotional desires.  She’s a good person. I don’t want to cast her in a bad light. But not everyone wants physical intimacy.  And some people have grown up with guilt and shame that clouds their perspective long after intimacy is right and good. 
 
I’m well aware of the adage that good relations begins in the kitchen (or laundry room, etc).  There is some truth to that of course.  But there is no way to slice cheese so thin that it doesn’t have two sides.  Happy wife, happy life is a sexist fallacy.  In reality, it should be: happy spouse, happy house.  BOTH spouses need to look out for, and go out of their way to meet the emotional needs of the other.   I’m no stellar romantic that does great at courting.  But when you have an honest discussion with your wife about why she doesn’t want to be intimate, and you come up with a plan together to address her emotional needs, and you follow that plan for months without reciprocation. . . well, I simply wasn’t that strong or great back then.  Not sure I am now either, but I’m much further along than before. 
 
With the second, I have asked repeatedly.  At first it was nothing that I had done, and there was no explanation why.  Over time, hormones were suspected, but tests indicate no issues.  Hormones are certainly a part, but they are not clinically out of whack despite the physical changes indicating something has changed.  As I’ve tried to discuss (at times, failing miserably and inquiring out of bitterness and hurt, and at times in all sincere loving, looking for mutual solutions) it further over time, it has not gone well.  It’s because of that time I did x two years ago, I was an a this other time, you failed to give me what I wanted there, and a whole litany of all the ways I’m a flawed human that no one would ever want to be in bed with.  I don’t ask any longer, as it has not gone well for a long time, no matter how kindly I approach the subject.   I understand why she does this.  It’s defensiveness to ward off feelings of inadequacy.  Still, it’s not anything I dare venture into any longer. 
 
I have a thousand more thoughts, but I’m sure I’ve written too much already.  

Weak sauce or not, your thoughts are appreciated Vort.  
 
 
 
Hi blunt!  How are you? I’m long-winded and rambling.  Sorry about that.  Well, generally so.  The answer to those questions would take way more than even I’m willing to type out.  
 
First, I concluded it was right as we got along so well, had similar spiritual and family goals, etc. All the typical college sweethearts stuff.  Not for her looks, although I was attracted to her, not for money, fame, intimacy, or anything in particular. We were friends, dated, and it fit.  And Heavenly Father said it was right.  Kinda hard for me to rationalize in post-mortem analysis of flawed motivations when HF affirmed the choice to me.
 
Second, I wish it were possible to convey what it is like to court someone that expresses symptoms of having BPD.  It’s readily described on the net, so I won’t try.  As I said to Anatess, I wasn’t looking for any problem to be solved. Just an innate desire to be wed on two people’s part, seeing great signs of compatibility in ALL areas of life, and, as Holland says, holding hands and jumping in with both feet hoping for the best.  Having a second chance to make right, I sought out all the advice and wisdom I could, from books, family, friends, bishop, etc.   I have no delusions that I was perfect and whole.  But I know I was a whole lot better of a person from my refiner’s fire than I had ever been in life.  I’ve asked myself many times if my motivations and desires were flawed, or I missed warning signs.  I have a hard time concluding I should have been more skeptical and not trusted so much.  Honestly, I didn’t have the life experience to see the deception, let alone even begin to comprehend it.  But analyzing that further doesn’t really do much to change the here and now, does it?  
 
Of course I’ve thought of the second question many times over.  Pondered it much.  Bluntly asked it with a real intent to understand.  I get I was, at times, quite difficult in the first marriage.  I’m sensing people are not used to my level of being forthright about my flaws though, and are likely to over-judge that.  It is what it is. I’m generally glad to take my part, own up to it as best I can, and try not be critical of the other side.  No abuse. No cheating. No porn.  Squeaky clean faithfulness.  As attentive and loving as I knew how to be, or was capable of.  Bringing flowers, courting, trying to resolve differences, very respectfully and considerate.  But a jerk when emotionally hurt.  And withdrawn when attacked.  We had the discussions about why.  There was talk of the need for filling her emotional needs first, etc, etc, etc. And I’d do that in all sincerity.  And almost nothing in return or consideration of my emotional desires.  She’s a good person. I don’t want to cast her in a bad light. But not everyone wants physical intimacy.  And some people have grown up with guilt and shame that clouds their perspective long after intimacy is right and good. 
 
I’m well aware of the adage that good relations begins in the kitchen (or laundry room, etc).  There is some truth to that of course.  But there is no way to slice cheese so thin that it doesn’t have two sides.  Happy wife, happy life is a sexist fallacy.  In reality, it should be: happy spouse, happy house.  BOTH spouses need to look out for, and go out of their way to meet the emotional needs of the other.   I’m no stellar romantic that does great at courting.  But when you have an honest discussion with your wife about why she doesn’t want to be intimate, and you come up with a plan together to address her emotional needs, and you follow that plan for months without reciprocation. . . well, I simply wasn’t that strong or great back then.  Not sure I am now either, but I’m much further along than before. 
 
With the second, I have asked repeatedly.  At first it was nothing that I had done, and there was no explanation why.  Over time, hormones were suspected, but tests indicate no issues.  Hormones are certainly a part, but they are not clinically out of whack despite the physical changes indicating something has changed.  As I’ve tried to discuss (at times, failing miserably and inquiring out of bitterness and hurt, and at times in all sincere loving, looking for mutual solutions) it further over time, it has not gone well.  It’s because of that time I did x two years ago, I was an a this other time, you failed to give me what I wanted there, and a whole litany of all the ways I’m a flawed human that no one would ever want to be in bed with.  I don’t ask any longer, as it has not gone well for a long time, no matter how kindly I approach the subject.   I understand why she does this.  It’s defensiveness to ward off feelings of inadequacy.  Still, it’s not anything I dare venture into any longer. 
 
I have a thousand more thoughts, but I’m sure I’ve written too much already.  

I don't really have any answers (if I did, I wouldn't be in the same boat).
 
One of the things that stands out to me in your post is this:
 
As much as I like Dr. Chapman's philosophy, these statements lead me into Dr. Schnarch's philosophies. What is it about your "reflected sense of self" as seen in your married sexual relationship that causes you such deep pain and suffering (emotional fusion) that you cannot function normally? I know that this was one of the things I needed to learn, too -- how to maintain emotional equilibrium in a sexless marriage. I (an engineer and mathematician, so I have no marriage or sex therapy credentials at all) might suggest that the best thing you could learn from this is how to maintain your emotional equilibrium in the face of your sexual struggles. I don't know that it is easy, and it sounds like you have tried, but that's the best I think I have got.

I will tell you the same thing I have told others.  Remember that your covenants are between you and the Lord.  Not you and your spouse.  So before you seriously think about taking any action that might break those covenants, be on you knees in prayer to him. 
 
Don't take such an action until he tells you that your sacrifice is acceptable and he no more requires it of you.  And if you don't get such an answer ask what more he wants you to do.  Then do it.

Let me see if I can break it down to simple terms. Your greatest fear in marriage is happening. And it was a fear for a real reason--you are hurting, afraid, angry, betrayed, and even confused. You felt that you took all the precautions you could prior to marriage to prevent this from happening, but despite your efforts and confirmation from the Spirit, it still happened.
 
I noticed that you aren't asking what to do regarding your marriage. You are asking what to do on your end--what to learn? how to cope? what to pray for?
 
I have learned that marriage is more difficult that I ever expected. If my assessment of your situation is correct, then I am living that same thing. My greatest fear in marriage has happened and despite my precautions and spiritual confirmation, it still happened. I can't change my spouse. I can only look to myself. 
 
I prayed for patience. I prayed for increased love. I prayed for charity (which is more than just love). I prayed to know what I could do to influence my spouse. I prayed to know how to live today with faith. I prayed to know how to continue with a marriage that is so far from what I wanted and from what God wants. I prayed to know that by choosing to stay in this marriage that I was doing God's will. 
 
I try to focus on the good of my spouse. I try to praise that good. I discuss issues with him but I pray before and even after sometimes to know what to say and how to say it. I try to remember that he is a son of God and no matter how angry I am, how hurt I am, his choices hurt God more than me and yet He still loves him. I try to suppress the feelings I have when I want my spouse to make choices other than what he is making. 
 
Sometimes, I have to rely on the answer I got when I prayed about my marriage. I received 2 very distinct answers to my prayers about my marriage. There are times when I'm in the midst of my pain and anger that I remember those answers and tell myself to endure. I know that I can't prevent the choices my husband makes and someday those choices may result in the dissolution of our marriage. But, I refuse to focus on those "what ifs." 
 
I'm sorry this is happening to you. I'm sorry that such a great disappoint has happened despite your efforts to prevent it. One thing I can say is do not, DO NOT, let them influence you to choose to leave your faith behind. While you may not be at your spiritual high, abandoning your faith altogether WILL result in more sorrow and misery. Sometimes, we have to wade through the mud and muck before we get to higher ground. And it can get very muddy and mucky before we can even tell that there is higher ground. That is when faith is needed. Keep the faith.