CV75

Assuming the worst about him (which is an unstable foundation for anyone to use), the keys of the kingdom were still intact and exercised by the First Presidency and Twelve. The covenants were still in place and active in the saints' lives. It's not a matter of being the best the Lord has to work with at the time, it is a matter of whom the Lord chooses to work through at the time for His own purposes. Should your line of thinking extend to Church leaders and officers (typically local units) committing crimes, the same thing holds true. The Lord atoned for all our sins and if He did not, we would not have the agency to commit them.

I think there is a difference between the source, the means (trifecta), the receipt and the application of truth. My read of the scriptures (and my experience) is that the Son of God is the source of all truth for this world. He conveys it in many ways, from the sustenance of all existence and life on earth to the immortal parallels in eternity. The means of conveyance, which requires the involvement of the Holy Ghost, depends on how much and how well the existing organized entity can act or be acted upon. Elements act very little, life forms act somewhat, and people act very much. The "receipt" of truth is addressed in Elder Kearon's last General Conference talk. As we put forth a good faith effort in following Christ a disciples, we get better and better at it. A great part of receiving the truth is applying it to the glory of its Source. How well we receive and apply truth will determine how well the trifecta works. But the Lord has promised that He will bless even a particle of faith or even the desire to believe. The Holy Ghost has several roles of increasing conveyance: witnessing the truth of a matter, an intermediary of sorts in prayer (a form of quickening); serving as a constant companion to illuminate our choices; acting as the agent for purification and sanctification; confirming or validating the fulfillment of covenants in alignment with with Christ's atonement (Holy Spirit of Promise).

I believe there is an inherent reason for Moses (and all of us) to learn and express sacred reverence. The Lord teaches us in various ways. I do not know what it is about bare feet that inherently accomplishes that universally, but we find bare feet in Eden before the Fall and then as part of washing, dusting and courtship rituals as described in scripture. You addressed what I was asking in the last question – thank you!

I don't think the Lord adopted Moses' culture, but spoke to him in his language according to his understanding. As a result of the interviews, Moses' spiritual language and understanding undoubtably advanced. We are being trained to adopt God's culture in the long run, not He to adopt ours. Yes, your conclusion is useful. Do you think permitting Moses to physically touch holy ground is similar to touching the Lord through the veil, that this action is literal (the last day) as well as symbolic (temple ritual), and if so, what happens with that location of holy ground today?

I think it is a symbolic, cultural norm.

Yes, "judge" entails ruling by law (or a ruler), with a subset role of dispensing judgment according to law in some applications and contexts. Judgement as an official role in the Bible and Book of Mormon entails this and every other aspect of judgement and law, including that dispensed by general (secular and/or religious) leadership, tribal chief leadership, or political and military figures. When God judges us (determines our alignment with the law), He does as part of His lawful judgement (rulership), and hopefully we accept and find that He judges (rules over) us forever and ever in exaltation! In His mercy He offers us every opportunity to do so, just as in love and mercy He granted us our agency to begin with. Because of agency, we learn to act upon things and learn to be acted acted upon, and choose which is the right thing to do. It is right for God to act upon us, and for us to accept what He offers us (wrong to reject it). It is wrong to be acted upon by the adversary or our own devices (e.g., Isaiah 50:11) and to accept what he offers us (right to reject it). In a way, we also act upon God in that He is affected by our choices, which is why He endlessly seeks our immortality and eternal life, for the sake of His and ours together (John 17). This is why one model of the Atonement of Christ is called the "partnership" model: bringing together the elements of covenant relationship, mutual benefit, active engagement. I boil this down to the "work" model where, because of His work from before the foundation of the world and into the Church of the Firstborn, Christ is the True Judge .

Nephi 2: 10 teaches that, “because of the intercession for all, all men come unto God; wherefore, they stand in the presence of him, to be judged of him…” Justice takes full sway after the intercession is established. From verse 4, “the way is prepared from the fall of man, and salvation is free.” Jesus’ sacrifice answers the ends of the law (verse 7), not justice; the law is one of mercy and justice (see the verses on opposition in all things), and so the ends of the law include mercy. One end addresses sin, the other end addresses a broken heart and contrite spirit. This is borne out in verse 10, “Wherefore, the ends of the law which the Holy One hath given, unto [A] the inflicting of the punishment which is affixed, which punishment that is affixed is in opposition to [B] that of the happiness which is affixed, to answer the ends of the atonement.” A justice-only scenario denies the principle of opposition. “And if these things are not there is no God.” (verse 13). A justice-only scenario is to say there is no law. For me, the role of agency in this is that God expands our agency between advancing estates. We have more agency now than as premortal spirits as we operate in a temporal/physical world with the eternal/spiritual world as the backdrop to the mortal setting; exalted beings have more agency than we do because they operate in a reconciled temporal/physical and eternal/spiritual world in an immortal setting. The role of the veil in this expansion is that, while we forgot those things we knew and the choices we made in the pre-existence, the ability to choose between good and evil in an “added upon” setting is by definition an expansion. And glory can then be added for ever and ever (Abraham 3: 26). In another thread or post there is talk of transgression and sin. I think this is an example of expanded agency and how we use it for good or evil. The various elements of lesser agency give a person the power to commit transgression (eyes not yet opened). The elements of greater agency give us the power to commit sin (knowing as the gods). The former offers opportunities to gain agency through experience and learning, the latter the curse to lose agency by rejecting the light we have been given. Both ends of the law are ruled by the atonement of Christ, the first being a reflection of mercy and the second a reflection of justice.

What do you mean by the demands of justice being properly fulfilled first, given that the atonement of Jesus Christ was established before the foundation of the world in anticipation of the justice that would otherwise be executed upon God's accountable children? The death of the innocent is not just, but it is offset by the merciful atonement of Christ. Where is the plan of justice (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2025/04/33rasband?lang=eng)? This indicates that in order for there to be justice, the gift of mercy must properly be fulfilled first. The Fatherly guidance in every estate is merciful. as long as there are conditions set for the execution of justice and the extension of mercy, it seems that both principles are perfectly reconciled, balanced and interdependent in Christ according to the principle that there is opposition in all things, in this case, complimentary opposition. For example, the interplay between justice in the premortal world would be expressed as devils being cast down and the rest of us given bodies. None of us had the stature of Christ, so mercy is shown in the opportunity for exaltation rather than to justly continue at our personal level of nobility and greatness. The plan of mercy preempted and bypassed that outcome entirely.

The sin comes after the Fall. The anticipated and prerequisite transgression was not a tragedy, but opened the way to probation where many would sin (but Christ and the unaccountable would not). That is where the "if" comes in; it is their choice. There are two sets of Adam and Eve: the original couple (our first parents), and us. The tragedy is refusing to repent sufficiently to obtain a fulness.

D&C 93: 1 - 20 speaks of the grace Jesus received step by step through His entire life experience as He fulfilled all righteousness by faith (verse 17 refers to this as "continued from grace to grace" -- a practical expression of godly faith, which we need to develop and exercise) and obedience, until He received a fulness. The sense I get is that He began this process "before the world was" (verse 7).

I think faith (which can be considered foreknowledge) and knowledge (which can be considered confirmed faith) are two aspects of the same thing. Existence is experienced through the application of action and intelligence (the combination being agency) within the sphere that God has placed truth, and a fulness of experience would then be a fullness of truth (D&C 93: 30, 31; 26, 27). All of God's children, whatever sphere in which He has placed them, will have this opportunity, an idea I take from Acts 17: 26, 27. (that last recognizes @Anddenex's comment about haply finding God in the spirit world ).

Something that helps me with the “order” of the attributes of God is the idea that His course is one eternal round (1 Nephi 10:19 – 21). Not only is He everlastingly consistent in His attributes and ways, meaning He exhibits them all at once. D&C 88 (the parable of the visiting Lord), shows how He passes through “every kingdom in its hour, and in its time, and in its season, even according to the decree which God hath made,” wherein “kingdom” can refer to a person, group, time, place, personal and group attribute, etc. So, from God’s perspective in the center of eternity, He is simultaneously merciful, just and perfect in every other holy attribute. But from our perspective, we must begin somewhere, so sometimes we are taught justice first, sometimes mercy first, but love underlies both. He brought us into mortality with love and takes us into immortality with love. He brought us into the premortal spirit world with love, and sent us into this one with love. We are co-eternal with Him with love; he always loves us, but we may or may not be consistent, hence the graduation or failure between advancing estates. I too take Job to be a way of illustrating the dynamic of the role of temptation and trial in mortality in light of the atonement of Christ which was established and effective from before the foundation of the world, rendering this fallen world not one of exile but one of testing (Abraham 3: 24 - 26). It also illustrates the role of the adversary which only shows that all things work for our good through the merits and labor of Jesus Christ (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2024/04/25gong?lang=eng). If we could remember back far enough, we would remember what it was like to be thoroughly infused with the light of Christ and embrace the principles of justice and mercy as forms of love. Of course, we do not remember that far back, and even further back there is a veil, so the point at which we begin in this life to discern between them (and other godly attributes), and learn to practice them, is the point at which we discern the beginning and consciously or knowingly tie it to an eternal principle, but we eventually grow to see that all of them are part of the eternal round.

I think the two scriptures are compatible in that knowledge opposes ignorance. We are saved in Christ, not ignorance.

My experience is, the larger the Church unit, the greater number of people that are willing to give sacrament talks, prayers, volunteer for service projects, temple attendance etc. There are also stages of unit development where a balance between the number of worker, the workload, and the distribution of the workload by kind of work.

Are you praying for more personal revelation, or for more prophetic revelation about our Heavenly Mother? I suppose different personalities approach revelation differently, but I would begin with what I can receive about what I am looking for before waiting on a Prophet to receive more for me.