CV75

Nephi 2: 10 teaches that, “because of the intercession for all, all men come unto God; wherefore, they stand in the presence of him, to be judged of him…” Justice takes full sway after the intercession is established. From verse 4, “the way is prepared from the fall of man, and salvation is free.” Jesus’ sacrifice answers the ends of the law (verse 7), not justice; the law is one of mercy and justice (see the verses on opposition in all things), and so the ends of the law include mercy. One end addresses sin, the other end addresses a broken heart and contrite spirit. This is borne out in verse 10, “Wherefore, the ends of the law which the Holy One hath given, unto [A] the inflicting of the punishment which is affixed, which punishment that is affixed is in opposition to [B] that of the happiness which is affixed, to answer the ends of the atonement.” A justice-only scenario denies the principle of opposition. “And if these things are not there is no God.” (verse 13). A justice-only scenario is to say there is no law. For me, the role of agency in this is that God expands our agency between advancing estates. We have more agency now than as premortal spirits as we operate in a temporal/physical world with the eternal/spiritual world as the backdrop to the mortal setting; exalted beings have more agency than we do because they operate in a reconciled temporal/physical and eternal/spiritual world in an immortal setting. The role of the veil in this expansion is that, while we forgot those things we knew and the choices we made in the pre-existence, the ability to choose between good and evil in an “added upon” setting is by definition an expansion. And glory can then be added for ever and ever (Abraham 3: 26). In another thread or post there is talk of transgression and sin. I think this is an example of expanded agency and how we use it for good or evil. The various elements of lesser agency give a person the power to commit transgression (eyes not yet opened). The elements of greater agency give us the power to commit sin (knowing as the gods). The former offers opportunities to gain agency through experience and learning, the latter the curse to lose agency by rejecting the light we have been given. Both ends of the law are ruled by the atonement of Christ, the first being a reflection of mercy and the second a reflection of justice.

What do you mean by the demands of justice being properly fulfilled first, given that the atonement of Jesus Christ was established before the foundation of the world in anticipation of the justice that would otherwise be executed upon God's accountable children? The death of the innocent is not just, but it is offset by the merciful atonement of Christ. Where is the plan of justice (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2025/04/33rasband?lang=eng)? This indicates that in order for there to be justice, the gift of mercy must properly be fulfilled first. The Fatherly guidance in every estate is merciful. as long as there are conditions set for the execution of justice and the extension of mercy, it seems that both principles are perfectly reconciled, balanced and interdependent in Christ according to the principle that there is opposition in all things, in this case, complimentary opposition. For example, the interplay between justice in the premortal world would be expressed as devils being cast down and the rest of us given bodies. None of us had the stature of Christ, so mercy is shown in the opportunity for exaltation rather than to justly continue at our personal level of nobility and greatness. The plan of mercy preempted and bypassed that outcome entirely.

The sin comes after the Fall. The anticipated and prerequisite transgression was not a tragedy, but opened the way to probation where many would sin (but Christ and the unaccountable would not). That is where the "if" comes in; it is their choice. There are two sets of Adam and Eve: the original couple (our first parents), and us. The tragedy is refusing to repent sufficiently to obtain a fulness.

D&C 93: 1 - 20 speaks of the grace Jesus received step by step through His entire life experience as He fulfilled all righteousness by faith (verse 17 refers to this as "continued from grace to grace" -- a practical expression of godly faith, which we need to develop and exercise) and obedience, until He received a fulness. The sense I get is that He began this process "before the world was" (verse 7).

I think faith (which can be considered foreknowledge) and knowledge (which can be considered confirmed faith) are two aspects of the same thing. Existence is experienced through the application of action and intelligence (the combination being agency) within the sphere that God has placed truth, and a fulness of experience would then be a fullness of truth (D&C 93: 30, 31; 26, 27). All of God's children, whatever sphere in which He has placed them, will have this opportunity, an idea I take from Acts 17: 26, 27. (that last recognizes @Anddenex's comment about haply finding God in the spirit world ).

Something that helps me with the “order” of the attributes of God is the idea that His course is one eternal round (1 Nephi 10:19 – 21). Not only is He everlastingly consistent in His attributes and ways, meaning He exhibits them all at once. D&C 88 (the parable of the visiting Lord), shows how He passes through “every kingdom in its hour, and in its time, and in its season, even according to the decree which God hath made,” wherein “kingdom” can refer to a person, group, time, place, personal and group attribute, etc. So, from God’s perspective in the center of eternity, He is simultaneously merciful, just and perfect in every other holy attribute. But from our perspective, we must begin somewhere, so sometimes we are taught justice first, sometimes mercy first, but love underlies both. He brought us into mortality with love and takes us into immortality with love. He brought us into the premortal spirit world with love, and sent us into this one with love. We are co-eternal with Him with love; he always loves us, but we may or may not be consistent, hence the graduation or failure between advancing estates. I too take Job to be a way of illustrating the dynamic of the role of temptation and trial in mortality in light of the atonement of Christ which was established and effective from before the foundation of the world, rendering this fallen world not one of exile but one of testing (Abraham 3: 24 - 26). It also illustrates the role of the adversary which only shows that all things work for our good through the merits and labor of Jesus Christ (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2024/04/25gong?lang=eng). If we could remember back far enough, we would remember what it was like to be thoroughly infused with the light of Christ and embrace the principles of justice and mercy as forms of love. Of course, we do not remember that far back, and even further back there is a veil, so the point at which we begin in this life to discern between them (and other godly attributes), and learn to practice them, is the point at which we discern the beginning and consciously or knowingly tie it to an eternal principle, but we eventually grow to see that all of them are part of the eternal round.

I think the two scriptures are compatible in that knowledge opposes ignorance. We are saved in Christ, not ignorance.

My experience is, the larger the Church unit, the greater number of people that are willing to give sacrament talks, prayers, volunteer for service projects, temple attendance etc. There are also stages of unit development where a balance between the number of worker, the workload, and the distribution of the workload by kind of work.

Are you praying for more personal revelation, or for more prophetic revelation about our Heavenly Mother? I suppose different personalities approach revelation differently, but I would begin with what I can receive about what I am looking for before waiting on a Prophet to receive more for me.

This may not have much to do with explaining quantum entanglement, but we are a soul (spirit and element, connected separably in mortality or inseparably in immortality) irrespective of the spirit, intelligence or agency an electron might have. All things are matter also, but there are many kinds of matter. Everything stores, or is capable of, storing data, but there are different kinds of data/information/knowledge. We are the same souls day in and day out from birth to death, but our various attributes of spirit and element become like God through Christ. Since our spirit/spiritual attributes determine our quickened glory (D&C 88: 27 – 32), they determine the level to which the elements connected with us are glorified, how they function and what they do. We can come to master element just as the Lord does, through the light of Christ, to varying levels or degrees of glory. God has placed us in a sphere where we can become like Him through Christ. While learning to spiritually master element (or gut bacteria) in a fallen telestial world, our lack of expertise can be perceived or construed as the elements influencing us, but I think we learn in retrospect that we were really subject to our mortal ignorance and limitations, and not the elements and bacteria themselves. These, whether living or nonliving, possessing intelligence or agency, capable of intercommunion or not, are ultimately part of our stewardship and dominion.

A couple of thoughts and opinions: So, after 7 years are we really the same being? Yes (D&C 93: 33-34): “For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit (man) and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy; And when separated, man (spirit) cannot receive a fulness of joy.” Now there is another question, are we really a unique singular individual entity? Yes, and as demonstrated in the Fall, where all life followed after Adam and Eve into mortality, we have an integrated relationship stewardship with all other living things. When we are separated from them, we cannot receive a fullness of joy, the family being the most obvious application, but involving the entire eternal ecosystem. This entails the idea of oneness with God, oneness with each other, etc. Man (our spirit) is connected to them all in some fashion, most fundamentally at the level of the light of Christ. When we have a white stone and live on a Urim and Thummim, we will be aware and cognizant of all these interrelationships. Those living in lesser kingdoms will remain less so. I tend to look at faith and knowledge as a complex, or two sides of the same coin of “experience” (or as D&C 93:30 puts it, existence -- a subjective experience). Alma 32 suggests this interdependency, and we can expand this complex to include hope (a desire to believe) and the pure love of Christ (the most precious fruit that is "sweet above all that is sweet"). God uses this complex in His exalted sphere. In this way, faith is the same as “foreknowledge,” the attribute of God which we call “omniscience” from the perspective of our lesser sphere. God gave man his agency in the Garden of Eden as a continuation of premortal agency in a new sphere; the agency we exercise here as children of Adam and Eve is a continuation of that in this new sphere; the dead keep it in the sphere of the spirit world; we keep it post-resurrection spheres or kingdoms. The agency we exercise connects our spirit with the elements with which we are separably and inseparably connected, a fulness being that connection with all other life and existence.

Even if Job is allegorical, we have many other reports of the devil manipulating matter, but only within the sphere in which God has placed him. God cast him to the earth, and will someday cast him to outer darkness.

3. Why does God sometimes cause bad things to happen to Good people? (Various boogaloos in the old testament) I think the answer to this is Agency also, which includes the paradigms and bias through which view the world and the scriptures. I think God teaches us within the spheres in which our agency has prepared us to operated, and this sometimes involves unpleasant experiences as a prompt for exercising and this strengthening trust in Him.

Some points (mostly based on opinion) to add or consider in your analysis: - Intelligence (described as light/truth) is independent [in that sphere in which God has placed it – how independent is that?], and has the capacity to act freely [in that sphere in which God has placed i]. - Elements, likely meaning bodies or physical matter are also eternal, and inseparable from intelligence. [If spirit and element can be inseparably connected (eternally), they can also be separably connected (temporary): that is why we need a Redeemer]. [Since everything is matter, mater is inherently inseparable, but some matter operates in different spheres than others hence the separable/inseparable nature of different kinds of matter]. RE: Vere 22: There were also many of the less noble and great in the same place: where is the hierarchy? Tis seems more a reflection of varying spheres of operation where God places us where we are prepared to function. Brigham Young: The life in all things is the light of Christ and everything operates in its own sphere, and sometimes acted upon also, and some things are solely acted upon. The light of Christ in a speck of dust will not contradict the light of Christ ordering it to attach itself elsewhere. Satan can warp or filter the light of Christ to the point of appearing as an angel of light, and to heal, but no further than the sphere in which God has placed him to act. We do the same thing when we apply the laws of nature, all governed by the light of Christ, for evil purposes. Erstwhile ostensible saints can give that which is holy to the dogs. There really is no problem of evil; it is the mind of the beholder that does not understand the Redeemer.

I think "After this manner..." refers to the guidance you mentioned and the spirit in which the prayer is offered, not to using the Lord's example for literal verbatim recitation, which is what I take the missionaries meant by calling it "impersonal" (the rote aspect of it, and the reliance on formula over the Person).