Jersey Boy

Christ atoned only for the sins of those who exercise faith in him and sincerely repent. For those who do not come down in the depths of humility and repent, it is as though no atoning sacrifice has been made. 5 But remember that he that persists in his own carnal nature, and goes on in the ways of sin and rebellion against God, remaineth in his fallen state and the devil hath all power over him. Therefore he is as though there was no redemption made, being an enemy to God; and also is the devil an enemy to God. (Mosiah 16)

Yes, you are right. 😀

Just as an aside, I’ve been trying to understand why so many people in today’s America say, “No, you’re right” (and other such similar incongruous expressions) rather than saying, Yes, you’re right.” As a consequence, I’ve been trying to locate some kind of English language expert who can explain to me why this strange linguistic phenomenon is happening so often lately? “Am I right in my assessment?” Yes. “If so, is it good?” Yes. So maybe someone can explain to me why so many 21st century Americans start affirmative answers to yes and no questions with a ‘no’ rather than a “yes?’

If you had taken a moment to perform a simple search of the Book of Mormon you could have quickly answered your own questions. While on the Church website, I searched the Book of Mormon for any use of the word Hebrew and I found the following statement from the prophet Mormon written a thousand years after the Lehites first arrived in America. 33 And if our plates had been sufficiently large we should have written in Hebrew; but the Hebrew hath been altered by us also; and if we could have written in Hebrew, behold, ye would have had no imperfection in our record. (Mormon 9) So yes, the Nephites could read and write a somewhat altered form of Hebrew one thousand years after their first arrival in America.

Whom do you think is confusing the Brass Plates with the Gold Plates?

It’s appears obvious you’ve never read the Book of Mormon, or if you have you didn’t retain the information found therein that answers your question. Do you remember anything about the Brass Plates, written in Hebrew, that the Nephites brought with them to America from the Holy Land? If you keep trying to play gotcha while remaining in ignorance of the LDS basics, you’re going to continue to needlessly paint yourself in a negative light.

Alvin was baptized. As soon as the doctrine of baptism for the dead was revealed, Joseph Smith had his older brother Hyrum vicariously baptized for their beloved deceased older brother. When Joseph Smith had this vision in 1836 his father and his mother were still alive! Joseph Smith Sr died in 1840, 4 years after the vision, and Luck Mack Smith died in 1856, 20 years after the vision. So what the prophet Joseph Smith saw in 1836 was a vision of his Father, Mother, and brother Alvin as they would be in the future, after the final judgment and the resurrection.of the dead. All those who inherit the celestial kingdom of post-resurrected glory must first be baptized either in the flesh or vicariously after death for the remission of sins. Doctrine and Covenants 76 testifies that the inheritors of the Celestial glory “are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given...”

Doctrine and Covenants 137.

1 Corinthians 15:29; 1 Corinthians 15:40; Doctrine and Covenants 76; Doctrine and Covenants 138

Of course they’re still going to be anxiously engaged in the Lord’s work. But isn’t the the original question that kicked off this thread focused on whether or not the work of salvation performed while in the flesh is a greater work than the work of salvation performed in the post-mortal spirit world? The point I’m trying to make is that Doctrine and Covenants 138 makes it clear the work or salvation performed in the spirit world is carried out only by righteous spirits who have not yet received the resurrection, so the verses quoted from Doctrine and Covenants couldn’t possibly be comparing the relative importance of the work of salvation on earth with the work of salvation in the spirit world.

What Peter desired of the Lord is to be resurrected to a fullness of celestial glory very soon after death, thereafter to dwell eternally in the immediate presence of God in heaven. This means Peter spent very little time in the spirit world after death, so it’s highly unlikely these verses have any focus at all on the work of preaching the gospel to the dead in the post-mortal spirit world.

Your question is a simple one and only requires a simple, straightforward answer. All the Lord is saying in these verses is that the inhabitants of these Nephite cities had become so fully ripened in iniquity that they didn’t deserve to have a even trace of their former existence left behind. The Lord was so offended and provoked by the extreme wickedness of these people that they deserved to not only die in a terrifying manner but deserved nothing less than total obliteration. There is nothing more complicated than this even suggested in these verses.

Your notion that it’s only those who obtain the fullness of exaltation in the celestial kingdom who are going to be cleansed from their sins is not true. Even the very lowest inhabitant of the post-resurrection telestial kingdom will have to be cleansed of his sins before he can have the right to occupy even that lowliest of all states of salvation. Doctrine and Covenants 76 makes it clear that it’s only the sons of perdition who are not going to eventually be redeemed by the, glory, power and triumph of Christ. Why else do you think it is that the inheritors of the telestial mansion of glory are going to enjoy the presence of the third Personage of the Godhead and be visited and ministered to by angels from the celestial kingdom?

You know I normally wouldn’t want to play the role of a grammar or spelling Nazi, especially in light of the fact that I make similar mistakes as well, but you seem like the kind of decent person who would appreciate some friendly input.

From an online dictionary: Discretion: “the quality of behaving or speaking in such a way as to avoid causing offense or revealing private information: "she knew she could rely on his discretion" 2.the freedom to decide what should be done in a particular situation:” I thought you might have been going for the word ‘desecration?’ “Desecration is the act of depriving something of its sacred character, or the disrespectful, contemptuous, or destructive treatment of that which is held to be sacred or holy by a group or individual.”

Talk about pure discretion toward the our divine nature and eternal destiny. Discretion?

Literarily speaking, it’s a clarifying aside to the reader. In this case, my use of the word aside has no reference to the statement’s relative importance. From the dictionary: Aside, in reserve; in a separate place, as for safekeeping; apart; away.

This verse cannot be properly understood without reference to the fact that the reason why Nephi was laboring so diligently wasn’t to persuade his people to understand that it is by grace that they are saved after all they can do, for that is mentioned only to the reader as a clarifying aside. No, the reason why Nephi was laboring diligently was to persuade his people to believe in Christ and be reconciled to God the Father through his atoning sacrifice. With this in mind , it becomes clear that what Nephi is trying to communicate TO THE READER is that a man can wear out his life in devoted service to God, but unless he first believes in Christ and has been reconciled to God through his atoning sacrifice all that expenditure of effort is in vain, for a man cannot be saved by his own effort. This is why we are told that “every knee shall bow and every tongue confess to the glory of the Father that Jesus is the Christ”. Without faith in Christ, receiving his forgiveness for our sins, and being redeemed from the fallen nature by virtue of his atoning sacrifice, all is lost.

Perhaps not first in terms of when it was recorded but first in the timeline is the fall of Lucifer. I agree with @laroniusthat the fall of Lucifer is the first example of divine justice. However, I have a problem with the Eden epoch as generally understood (especially among Traditional Christians) as a display of justice. Perhaps @Vort can explain or anyone???? If the fall was a demonstration of "Justice" - especially pure divine justice - How is it that every living thing on this planet suffers - not just or exclusively Adam and Even that according to the literal implications in scripture were the only beings that were involved or committed "THE TRANSGRESSION"???? By what sense of logic is this justice? The Traveler Because in the pre-earth life we were fully informed about what would happen as a consequence of the fall, and then after being fully informed about what we would face and experience, we voluntarily decided to partake of the fallen nature because we knew it was the only way to continue to progress toward greater spiritual empowerment and happiness. If we had had no say in the matter, then it indeed would have been unjust.

It is indeed God’s plan because abstract principles, which in reality cannot exist outside of the mind of a conscious, self-aware intelligence, are unable to plan or execute anything. Only intelligent beings can make plans and bring those plans to fruition. Mere abstract principles are powerless to do anything because they cannot think nor act.

The same way the preexistent Christ was God before he obtained a body of flesh, bone and blood.

If, as is often asserted (such as in the King Follett Discourse), God was once a man who existed in a fallen state, then God does indeed feel gratitude. He feels it not just for those of his children who sincerely come unto him for life and salvation, but he also feels intense gratitude for having been rescued and redeemed from a lost and fallen state and raised to a state of eternal glory by that Being who was the Savior of his fallen world.

It’s really very simple. Nephi is saying men must accept and embrace the fact that God has graciously done mighty things for the salvation of man that they are utterly incapable of providing to themselves. First, they must come unto Christ in faith as Lord and Savior, with the realization that without his atoning sacrifice they would inescapably be dragged down to the misery of hell and become angels to the devil forever. Next, they need to understand that in order to be saved they must be reconciled to God by receiving a remission of their sins through Christ’s atoning sacrifice, a gift of divine grace that they are utterly incapable of providing for themselves, for a man cannot atone for his own sins. While it’s true a man can suffer for his own sins and have his heart softened thereby, nevertheless he can never atone for his own sins, for only and infinite and eternal sacrifice of God, not man, can expiate sin. So Nephi is saying that if a man wants to be saved he must realize that though he might wear out his life in a quest of attempting to prove to God and man that he is righteous and worthy of salvation, unless that man comes down in the depths of humility and accepts the great and gracious blessings of salvation God offers him that he cannot provide for himself (for only God can provide them) he cannot and will not be saved. In other words, the true path to salvation starts at the point when a man comprehends that it is only in and through the grace of God that he can be saved. After coming unto Christ in living faith, and being reconciled to God the Father through him, a man can strive to live the kind of holy life that doesn’t frustrate the continued outpouring of God’s salvative blessings, but in the end it’s still only divine grace, realized by faith, that has the power to save him.

Nephi’s central point is unless a man comes unto Christ in living faith, and is reconciled to God the Father through the power of Christ’s infinite and eternal atoning sacrifice for sin, he cannot be be saved, no matter how hard he might strive to prove himself worthy of salvation by living a righteous life. Justification (forgiveness) and sanctification (spiritual strength, purity and holiness) can only be obtained through the redemptive power of Christ’s sacrifice. In the case of the Nephites, striving to keep the law of Moses with great diligence, persistence and exactness would not be enough to save any one of them because the only thing that could bring salvation is coming unto Christ and being reconciled to God the Father through his atonement.

You’re missing Nephi’s central point. He’s saying that unless a man comes unto Christ and is reconciled unto to God by embracing and internalizing the transformative redemptive power offered to him through the atoning sacrifice, that man can never be saved no matter how hard he tries to live a life that will prove he is righteous. Growing in the grace and knowledge of God by faithfully and conscientiously living the Gospel of Christ does indeed bring positive spiritual growth toward ultimate exaltation, but only after first coming unto Christ in faith and being reconciled to God through the Savior’s atonement. Even the inheritors of the Telestial Kingdom will be required to bow the knee to God the Father and confess to him that Jesus is the Christ before they will be permitted to enter into that kingdom of post-resurrection glory. 109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore; 110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever; 111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared; (D&C 76) 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2)