Jersey Boy

John wasn’t much of an actual eyewitness of Christ’s suffering in Gethsemane when it’s considered that he, Peter and James were some distance away from Christ at the time of his suffering, and that they were fast asleep. It may rightly be said that John accompanied Christ when he entered the garden and that he was with him at the time the Gethsemanic suffering was over, but it’s a stretch to say he was an eyewitness.

I doubt elder Oaks’ rather strange and totally uncharacteristic General Conference address is the one he originally planned on giving. It’s hard to believe that after 6 months a brilliant mind like his couldn’t have come up with something more original to say. It seems to me his address was hastily cobbled together at the last minute just to be able to fill his allotted time. After President Nelson admitted in his address that President Oaks and President Eyring have been having disagreements, albeit civil ones, I’m wondering if President Eyring opined at the last minute that President Oaks’ originally planned address was too hard hitting and controversial, and for these reasons President Oaks was forced to prepare a talk on the fly that included virtually no thoughts of his own? I know what I’m saying seems far fetched, but at very least I’m fairly certain something happened behind the scenes that caused President Oaks to give the most unoriginal and unusual of all the General Conference addresses he’s ever given since becoming a general authority. To reiterate, President Oaks had a full 6 moths to come up with another one of his thought provoking talks, but the best he could do was quote the Savior on a wide range of subjects with no particular central focus or theme? Now I do indeed realize that I could be flat out wrong, but I think it’ really is possible that something unusual happened behind the scenes that caused him to give such a strange and totally uncharacteristic conference address.

If those who remained loyal to Christ and freedom were the first part and those who followed Lucifer and tyranny were the third part, who exactly were those in the second part and who did they follow? You say they were not numbered among the noble and great who followed Christ, but are not the rank and file soldiers who fight for their nation in war considered loyal? Or are they only considered loyal if they do something above and beyond the call of duty?

The scriptures make it clear that it’s impossible for fallen mortals to atone for their own sins through suffering. The only way sin can be be properly atoned for, in order to fully satisfy the infinite and eternal demands of divine justice, is through an atoning sacrifice for sin made by an infinite and eternal being, and that being is God. It’s folly to imagine it’s possible for wicked, fallen men to have the power to make an infinite and eternal atoning sacrifice for their own sins. The purpose of suffering in hell for those destined for the telestial kingdom is to humble them through suffering until their hearts are fully broken and their spirits are rendered fully contrite, and this that they might finally be able to exercise living faith in Christ, sincerely repent of their sins, receive divine pardon for their sins, and at last receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, the Holy Ghost being that member of the Godhead who ministers to the inheritors of the telestial kingdom of glory. The penalty spoken of is finally paid when the penitents have suffered enough to enable them to understand that they are utterly dependent on the Savior and need to advantage themselves of his atoning sacrifice if they are ever going to be able to escape what would otherwise be an endless punishment in hell. Suffering for personal sin actually is endless unless and until the sufferer exercises living faith in Christ unto true repentance that allows the burden to be lifted. In order to gain a proper understanding of Doctrine and Covenants 138:59, it’s essential to read and correctly understand the verses that immediately precede verse 59. With this correct understanding it becomes clear that the washing referred to in verse 59 is the saving ordinance of baptism. With this comes the realization that the Savior really did speak the truth when he testified that only those who believe in him AND ARE BAPTIZED can be saved. The answer you are looking for is found in the very same Section of the Doctrine and Covenants (138) that prompted your question… 57 I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead. 58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ORDINANCES of the house of God. (Doctrine and Covenants 138) The “ordinances of the house of God” referred to in verse 58 are the same referred to in verse 33: 32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets. 33 These (I.e. the wicked who rejected the gospel message taught by prophets while they were in the body on earth) were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands. (Doctrine and Covenants 138)

Although at times it may not appear to be so, due to man’s limited understanding, the fact is that God never does a single thing, ever, that isn’t for the benefit and salvation of his children. 23 For behold, my beloved brethren, I say unto you that the Lord God worketh not in darkness. 24 He doeth not anything save it be for the benefit of the world; for he Loveth the world, even that he layeth down his own life that he may draw ALL men unto him. Wherefore, he commandeth none that they shall not partake of his salvation. (2 Nephi 26)

If dwelling in everlasting burnings denatures protein, why doesn’t that fire also denature the protein in God the Father’s body of flesh and bone, a body that’s as tangible as man’s? In other words, why doesn’t the fire consume and destroy God’s flesh and bone? Or is it only the DNA portion of resurrected human protein that will denature in fire?

Do you believe the earthly body of Only Begotten Son of the Father, Jesus Christ, had human DNA? If you do, from where and whom do you believe he got the male side of his DNA profile?

Yes seriously… Why don’t you try answering my very reasonable and logical questions? How about the following? 1) Do you believe the glorified man we call God the Father has DNA? 2) If you answer question 1 in the affirmative, do you believe Jesus has DNA from both his mother AND his Father?

So do you believe Mary was somehow impregnated without a sperm fertilizing her egg? Do you believe that Jesus had DNA from his Father (meaning that God the Father was his literal human Father?)? Or do you believe he was some sort of hybrid half-human with DNA from his mother only? One last question: If God the Father is a perfect Man whose resurrected human body functions perfectly, do you believe his resurrected reproductive system produces DNA?

An essential element in the proper understanding of salvation by the grace of Christ is coming to the realization that there are two principle ways in which the grace of Christ is able to save us: The first way Christ’s grace saves us is when we are justified (cleansed of our sins) through his atoning sacrifice. The second way his grace saves us is when we are sanctified (spiritually empowered and made holy) through the indwelling of his Spirit which is only made possible through his atonement. The principle of sanctification by grace reveals that we would never be able to successfully climb the ladder, of which you speak, without first receiving the spiritual enabling power which Christ graciously imparts to us through the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. This indicates that we are not able to successfully do the work God requires of us by means of our own unaided efforts, but that we are only able to grow and progress spiritually, in thought and in deed, when we submit ourselves to becoming the workmanship of Christ Jesus unto good works through the enabling power of the Holy Spirit. Even Christ himself testified that the only reason why is was able to do the will of his Father is because a spiritual power greater than his own (the Father’s) dwelt within him. Even Christ was saved by grace… “I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.” (John 14)

If you received a strong spiritual impression that your family was complete, why did you ignore that strong impression and (with the full cooperation of your wife) create a new child? Did the spiritual impression cause you to believe the laws of nature were going to be miraculously thwarted on your behalf and that not one of the millions upon millions of highly motivated sperm you released over those five years were going to find their way to their “target?” Did you believe the Lord was going to install some kind of miraculous Intrauterine barrie? You could have made your strong impression a reality by simple means of abstinence, but you elected to to do what comes naturally and a very natural consequence followed in the wake. Considering how you continued to carry on as you did for those five years, the only other way your impression could have had a good chance of coming true is if the Lord is a “hands on,” proactive participant in birth control.

You are correct. A correct understanding of the obvious meaning of Doctrine and Covenants Sections 76 and 138 can lead to no other conclusion.

Very simple. Those who come unto Christ are first commanded to exercise living faith in him, and then to sincerely repent of their sins before they can expect to receive God’s forgiveness for sin. After this first blessed experience with obtaining divine pardon, the believer is further commanded to continue to maintain the same broken hearted and contrite repentant attitude for the rest of his life, while also diligently striving to grow in the grace and knowledge of God. By enduring to the end in this fashion, the cleansed believer will ultimately be empowered to apprehend that for which he is also apprehended of Christ Jesus (I.e. obtaining the redemptive power to overcome the world). The Book of Mormon testifies that as long as believers continue to manifest a sincere attitude of daily repentance, and a willingness to be spiritually refined, by earnestly striving to comply with the will of God, he enters into a state in which he retains a remission of his sins on an ongoing basis.

Perhaps the sperm that beat out the competition was left in the dark about the revelation? And remember, as tiny as that little rascal was he was still an intelligence capable of independent action (see Doctrine and Covenants 88). Never lose sight of the fact that he was just trying to fulfill the measure of creation. You could learn much from his valiant, heroic example.

Read and ponder Doctrine and covenants Section 138. The entire section powerfully and repeatedly testifies that repentance and the remission of sins through faith in Christ is available for all after death, except for the sons of perdition who commit the unpardonable sin. Therefore the answer to your question is a resounding yes.

In order for these people to be healed of their ailments and witness great miracles, it was necessary for them to first exercise faith in Christ. But since they had little to no faith Christ and his the healing power, his miraculous power was largely withheld from them.

It’s probably fair to say that the reason why she’s never been exposed to the church doctrine that the righteous resurrected saints are going to be “caught up” to meet the Lord at the time of his Second Coming is because she’s either never read the pertinent verses in 1 Thessalonians 4, Doctrine and Covenants 88, and Doctrine and Covenants 109; or if she has read them they apparently didn’t make a sufficient enough impression on her mind. I’ve been well acquainted with this Church doctrine for decades without anyone having to teach me about it because when I read the pertinent passages I was able to comprehend what was being said.

Over the years, I’ve learned that just because I’m personally unfamiliar with a particular Church teaching doesn’t mean it isn’t an official doctrine of the Church. I presume you’re unfamiliar with the following verses taken from the very significant “Olive Leaf” revelation? 95 And there shall be silence in heaven for the space of half an hour; and immediately after shall the curtain of heaven be unfolded, as a scroll is unfolded after it is rolled up, and the face of the Lord shall be unveiled; 96 And the saints that are upon the earth, who are alive, shall be quickened and be caught up to meet him. 97 And they who have slept in their graves shall come forth, for their graves shall be opened; and they also shall be caught up to meet him in the midst of the pillar of heaven— 98 They are Christ’s, the first fruits, the who shall descend with him first, and they who are on the earth and in their graves, who are first caught up to meet him; and all this by the voice of the sounding of the trump of the angel of God. (Doctrine and Covenants 88)

Are you sure the fall doesn’t damn us? The Book of Mormon teaches that in spite of the resurrection there will be those among the resurrected who will be “as if there had been no redemption made?” In spite of their resurrection, the sons of perdition are fully cursed by the fall.

Alma 40 is in complete harmony with Doctrine and Covenants 76. Alma diligently enquired of God to know the state of all men between death and the resurrection, and an angel (no less) answered Alma’s earnest inquiry.. The angel revealed that at death all men, whether they be good or evil, are first taken home to that God who gave them life. Brigham Young said that, in this context, the meaning of being taken home to God is that all men, whether they be good or evil, are placed within the reach of God’s grace as he continues to strive with men, including the wicked, in order to bring to pass their eventual salvation in one of the three kingdoms of heavenly glory. It’s important to understand that whether the spirits of men are placed in paradise or in the spirit prison, God’s presence and empowered teaching missionaries are there striving with both the righteous and the wicked in order to either convert them to the gospel of Jesus Christ or more fully convert them (as Doctrine and Covenants 138 so amply demonstrates). But eventually there will come a time, just prior to the final judgement, when God’s arm of mercy and forbearance will be withdrawn, and by then all men will have either been resurrected into glory crossed OR over into paradise awaiting resurrection after having been taught the gospel of the Son of God and sincerely accepting it. Meanwhile those who yet remain in the spirit prison will be none other than the utterly rebellious and unconverted sons of perdition. If you read Alma 40 with the above perspective, it becomes obvious that the wicked spoken of in verse 13 are the sons of perdition who would not avail themselves the mercy they were being offered. 11 Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life. 12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous (i.e. all those who will eventually accept the gospel, including the repentant wicked) are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow. 13 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord (an obvious reference to the sons of perdition)’; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into outer darkness (another obvious reference to the sons of perdition) ; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil. 14 Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection (the wicked who accept the gospel in the spirit prison will be transferred to paradise prior to their resurrection). Alma 40

I guess you missed the part that testifies those who are worthy of the Celestial Kingdom will possess the fullness of eternal glory, which means they will be humble, meek and lowly in heart, the very opposite of arrogant, cliquish snobs. Is your post a joke?

The atoning sacrifice of Christ is infinite and eternal. It’s manifold blessings of salvation extend forever into the past and forever into the future. This is why the Bible tells us the Savior was slain even before the world was. Any spiritual progress toward holiness that was achieved by the spirit children of God in the pre-earth life was only realized through their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, just as it is in this phase of our existence. Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today and forever.

It escapes me how one could ever expect to become like the Savior without feeling the same holy spiritual emotions that motivate him to be as he is and do as he does. Without feeling the Spirit, our works are dead works that profit nothing.

Although it is not widely understood in the Church, in the beginning Jesus Christ participated with his Father in the creation of man, as is amply demonstrated in the following verse from the Pearl of Great Price. 26 And I, God, said unto mine Only Begotten, which was with me from the beginning: Let US make man in OUR image, after our likeness; and it was so. And I, God, said: Let them have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (Moses 2)

Because Christ’s atoning sacrifice of suffering for sin is infinite and eternal in scope and nature, he atoned for every sin that has ever been committed by every soul who has ever lived, is now living, and will yet live until there be time no more. But the immutable truth is that the mighty salvative blessings and benefits of Christ’s atoning sacrifice can only be accessed through living faith in him as Savior and Redeemer, followed by sincere repentance for sin. The only instances in which it will appear AS IF no redemption had made is in the case of those individuals who refuse to humble themselves before Almighty God, exercise faith in Christ and repent of their sins. The only individuals who will ultimately be found in the category of those for whom it will be AS IF no redemption had been made will be the sons of perdition. All others will eventually choose to exercise faith in Christ unto repentance and thereby receive a remission of their sins. Doctrine and Covenants 138 make this last point very clearly. One must be careful to not confuse the state of being so obstinately unrepentant that it seems AS IF no redemption has been made, with the fact that the Saviour did indeed suffer more than adequately for each and every sin that has ever been committed. The great tragedy of the sons of perdition lies in the fact that they refuse to accept a priceless gift of forgiveness, the cost of which has been paid in full by a loving Benefactor..