zil2

Ah, gotcha. Yeah, Rush addressed only one president after Obama (which would make Rush's total count only 19), but the way the vision reads, there has to be two presidents after Obama (in order to get the 20 found in the vision), and the second of these (Biden) will serve for a shorter time than the first of these (Trump). Rush didn't need to know who would come after Trump, but just from the vision, it's clear someone would. Rush missed that altogether (this baffles me to no end - that's how clear it is in the text of II Esdras 11 & 12).

Perhaps he intended them to be in tandem, the one completing the other - you must do good works with good intent to be good. Are you so sure the following verses aren't the fine print? Perhaps Mormon is not asserting that a person is one or the other, but rather is trying to teach how to become a good person, by telling you the sorts of things a good person does. Perhaps the difficulty comes when using human, short-term perception to try to determine whether a thing is good or evil. IMO, the difficulties you point out are the reason why we must continually study all scripture, not just some of it, and not just some of the time. The whole collection is needed to paint a clearer picture, and repeated study is needed to gain more and more understanding over time.

Not in the manger, but they may have stayed in Bethlehem. Nope. Not even the two hours to Jerusalem. That's why I figured they likely found somewhere in Bethlehem. Once the census was over, it shouldn't have been that hard...

Very happy to have given you something to think about! Correction - it would have been 41 days in Bethlehem, and then going to Jerusalem. (Though I guess they could have left the manger and traveled 2 hours to Jerusalem and hung out there until the days of her purification were complete. Heaven knows - and I'm content leaving it to them for now. )

Nope. The vision in II Esdras is clear on this. Biden's presidency would *have* to be *shorter than Trump's* - not cut short per se, but shorter than the previous president's. There's no other rational way to interpret the vision. This is the error Rush made - he didn't recognize that after Obama there would be two presidents and the second of them would serve a shorter term than the first. Again, would not fit the vision in II Esdras. I mean, if you're gonna make up nonsense without regard to what it says in II Esdras 11 and 12, then fine, the flying purple people eater can enter stage left, but I'm talking about that vision, regardless of any interpretation of it beyond: 1. The Eagle is the US. 2. The wings and feathers are its leaders. 3. We start with Herbert Hoover (because it's the only way all the durations work). It's the only way to keep anything consistent with what's written in II Esdras - Biden's presidency has to be shorter than Trump's. I'm confused. It's easy enough to go read various translations of II Esdras 11 and 12. So...?

Moroni is copying important sections of the Handbook.

The vision is very clear about the numbers. So it's not the numbers that could reasonably change (though I guess people could get stupid about the math again). It would have to be "it wasn't presidents at all, it was ..." OK, well, theories are all well and good, but nothing should trump simple logic and math. So, I guess if someone is still talking about this if / after Biden finishes his presidency, they'll be the people who can't reason. But here, I'll do them a favor: <start conspiracy voice>Biden hasn't been Biden for some time now - they replaced him with a look-alike (or someone wearing a mask, or someone with a good Hollywood make-up job), so Biden's presidency really was cut short even though no one else believes it, and we're just waiting for the big giant head (still can't resist) to wake up and gobble up the next two contenders.</end conspiracy voice> There, now they can go on yammering about this vision and brother Rush's interpretation thereof until the cows come home (or are stolen by aliens, or the Second Coming happens, whichever).

This was not an interpretation or understanding error. It was a mathematical error - simple counting of 12 + 8 = 20 error - he got to 19 and appeared to forget that 12 + 8 = 20.

The logic was wrong with Trump - Rush made an error and apparently whoever was talking about this 4 years ago didn't catch it (check out the vision and the numbers yourself - it shouldn't be hard to reproduce the exact thing I did, or confirm what I did - and I'm not the only one to have found it). The logic will be wrong if Biden finishes his presidency. There will be nothing left to talk about - the numbers don't fit any other set of presidencies. So yeah, I don't see how anyone can still be talking about this 8 years from now unless Biden's presidency is cut short. The only alternative would be to argue it wasn't about US presidents at all, and find some other "kings" that fit the pattern.

That would be the MSG and high fructose corn syrup talking. (PS: You can stuff Stovetop into the bird. The slimy slop comes from folks who don't know how to cook a stuffed bird.) And I should now note that I don't especially like stuffing, but when I have it, prefer Stovetop1 cooked until it's quite dry on the stove and wouldn't cook a turkey, let alone stuff one except to save myself from starving. But I hate deception and falsely presented truths. There's no danger is stuffing a turkey.2 Try it out: buy a (dead) turkey stuff something - anything (that's not still alive, please) - inside it toss the whole kit and kaboodle in the trash can wash your hands and forearms well report back afterwards whether you're still alive There is danger is under-cooking food - any food that needs to be cooked. It isn't complicated to cook a stuffed bird sufficient to cook the stuffing and kill off any bacteria that may be present - you just have to learn how. 1chicken flavor over turkey flavor 2above and beyond the danger of handling the turkey at all during prep (assuming the turkey is dead - if it's still alive, there are probably other dangers in trying to stuff it...)

Ether 14 v1-2: The slippery curse again (we see more parallels with the end of the Nephites, and since the Lord is repeating it twice, we must assume we will see parallels as the Second Coming approaches). v27: "fled to the land of Corihor" - perhaps the Cohor and Corihor mentioned in 13 were leaders of groups who had separated themselves from the Jaredites at some point, but were now dragged back in by this all-encompassing war. Ether 15 These last two chapters of Ether are the goriest part of the book of Mormon, if not so drawn out as "the war chapters". v1+: It's pretty sad when millions have to die before you consider that maybe you ought to repent. Don't wait that long - repent now! v5-7: Apparently his mourning wasn't enough to convince him to give up his own life to save the lives of his people (and apparently, that wouldn't have worked anyway - everyone was too far gone). What is there to say? It's hard to imagine such hatred and senselessness - and we should be grateful that it's hard for us to imagine it (v19). v34: Love the Lord so much that the rest doesn't matter, as long as eventually you get to dwell with him again. Moroni 1 v1, 4: "but I have not as yet perished" - as long as you're alive, try to improve the time you've been given. v2-3: Even if it costs your life, don't deny Christ (as your eternal life is worth far more than the mortal one). v4: Plead for the gift of charity. Moroni 2 Interesting that Moroni decides to document some formalities. v2: We all should seek to receive this gift. When acting in the name of the Lord, first pray. (Deciding to finish these short chapters.) Moroni 3 Again, pray before acting in the name of Christ. Teach and believe in repentance, that Christ can remit our since, if we endure to the end with faith in Christ. v4: God calls people to various areas of service and gives them corresponding gifts. v4: "ordained them by the power of the Holy Ghost" - we don't really talk about this, in my memory - we talk about priesthood power and authority or the power and authority of God or Christ. Anyway, this wording suggests that callings, being ordained, being set apart (terms we use in the Church, @Jamie123) are all done after receiving confirmation from God by the Holy Ghost that it's the right thing to do. Nothing surprising there. I wonder though, if there isn't more intended here. Perhaps it's simply the fact that we are meant to have the Spirit with us always and to be guided by him... Moroni 4 "in remembrance of the body of thy Son" - for the longest time, I think I only ever considered this to mean what Christ endured through the Atonement, but now, I think it is meant for that, and Christ's condescension in taking on a mortal body and living among us, and the fact that he was resurrected (and therefore the body is an important thing, and we will be resurrected, too). And perhaps all the things Christ did with his body - being baptized, all the ministering and teaching and blessing - things we are to strive to do, following his example. I sometimes wonder if "they are willing to..." applies to a list (three things), or just the first item in the list. Whatever the case, these three simple (if not always easy) things are what we need to do to receive that blessing of having the Spirit with us always. Moroni 5 "in remembrance of the blood of thy Son, which was shed for them" - similarly, I only ever thought of the Atonement (particularly bleeding from every pore in the garden), but now, I think similar things as above, but also, we know that in the resurrection, one has flesh and bone, but not blood - something else exists in place of the blood. Christ's blood was spilt multiple times and ways during the Atonement, but in the resurrection, every last drop of it was shed (gotten rid of) for us - so that we too can one day be resurrected. Here, the bar is a little higher - we witness willingness first, but here, we witness that we always remember Christ - not an easy thing to do, and all the more reason to engage daily in those things which remind us of him. OK, 6 and 7 tomorrow.

Look at you, turning chicken into turkey! Miracles happening in the UK. Must be all the faith gained from studying Ether 12.

Can't decide if I should laugh or cry in reaction to that, but yes.

Send him (her) to milk the cows!

I didn't watch any videos, or even go look for any by this particular guy. Maybe when he realized Trump wasn't the last short feather before the three heads wake up (which was the error in his book), he returned to the theory with Biden... Ditto. Would be quite content for the Second Coming to be sooner than later. (If that does happen, ask me again in the Millennium whether I was nuts to want to go through all that. ) Meanwhile, in happy news, here are two videos about Klaw's Not-Eagles:

The pure love of Christ.

Ether 13 v2: Personally, I consider this testimony of a global flood. Think of it what you will. We know from elsewhere that where much is given, much is expected. That's the only reason I can think of for special emphasis on this chosen land. After all, I think @askandanswer is right - the Lord wants all people everywhere to serve him. v4: @Jamie123, I've mentioned it before, but here's another example - we believe that all the prophets knew and testified of Christ. v7-8: That the Lord seems to go to great lengths to preserve genealogical lines emphasizes to me the importance of sealing parents and children back through the generations - as if the Lord needs individuals throughout each of these lines to do the work of sealing those lines - or something. I expect we'll learn much more in the Millennium. v11: The Lord fulfills his promises. v13: Don't cast out (literally or figuratively) the Lord's prophets. v17: I couldn't connect Cohor and Corihor to anyone or any title. I'd guess they were leaders of the day? v21: Interesting that Coriantumr was chosen to be the lone survivor. Perhaps this was as punishment. v22: It's sort of understandable that Coriantumr wouldn't listen to Ether. C would have seen E as his political rival - probably the rightful king. And it starts to sound very much like the end of the Nephites.

Hmm. Sounds like a sphere. Some interesting factoids: 1. Per Leviticus 12, they would have gone to Jerusalem after 41 days (8 + 33). So, if we assume they stayed in Bethlehem for those 41 days and then went to Jerusalem as required, the events of Luke 2 happened around that time, including going to Nazareth. 2. It may or may not be meaningful that they went to Jerusalem every year at Passover. (Note that Bethlehem is very close to Jerusalem (about 2 hours away by foot), and lots of people go to "Jerusalem" at Passover - and perhaps spill out into surrounding towns.) 3. In Matthew 2, Herod kills all children 2 years of age and younger. You've explained the math here, but it's still a wide range of time - meaning, the visit from the wise men doesn't have to have happened in those 41 days. Indeed, depending on where "in the east" is (some speculate Babylon), it likely took them more than 41 days just to make their journey. Verse 1 can be referring to initiating events more than precise times - after all, the star appeared at the birth of Christ, not before, so the wise men couldn't be there "when Jesus was born in Bethlehem" - it would have to be considerably after. At the very least, they've found a "house" (Matthew 2:11) - not in the manger any more... 4. Herod's experts tell the wise men that the Messiah is to be born in Bethlehem, and Herod sent them there, saying (emphasis mine): "Go and search diligently for the young child..." OK, sure, maybe that meant infant, or maybe not. 5. Now let us look at exactly what verses 9 and 10 say, without assuming what they say: They left the king And oh, hey, look, the star! Let's follow it. The star stopped when it "came and stood over where the young child was" - again young child. (Moving star - did you know about the Chinese record of the comet (or meteor, or something, I forget now) from this time?) They rejoiced when they saw the star Maybe, just maybe, instead of going to Bethlehem (2 hours of following the star?), they followed the star for a week until it came to Nazareth - or when night fell, they saw the star and it wasn't over Bethlehem, so they picked up and headed north... 6. They were warned not to return to Jerusalem (hard to do if they're in Bethlehem, but easy if they're in Nazareth). 7. Now, before you say, but why send Joseph to Egypt if they're in Nazareth and Herod is going to kill all the children in Bethlehem? Surely Herod wasn't a complete idiot. Joseph was there for a census. It's likely that census would have noted he was there with wife and newborn son. v13: "Herod will seek the young child to destroy him" - maybe Herod searched the census records. That v16 doesn't mention it doesn't mean it didn't happen that way. I mean, dude had to know about the census, right? Anywho, point is that the events can easily fit together without contradiction - the accounts are sufficiently vague that almost anything could be true.

Ether 12 This chapter probably deserves multiple days and a group discussion in real time. I consider it one of the best discourses on faith out there. For reference, when I think of faith, I generally think of two or three different definitions: 1. The kind of faith described in Lectures on Faith. The principle of action - that any action you do is driven by faith in an outcome, basically. I believe this is the sort of faith God has / uses - to see what could be and act as if it already were / were certain. 2. Faith in Jesus Christ - this is the faith that leads to salvation. 3. Faith in any other true principle or virtue - faith that kindness or patience are worth practicing, faith that following the prophet will yield positive results, faith that the Book of Mormon contains true teachings which can improve the lives of those who act accordingly, etc. This is the sort of faith Alma described when he talked about planting the word of God in your heart (and perhaps also #2, since Alma also taught of Christ). 4. I guess technically, there's a fourth, where it's used synonymously with "religion" or "belief system". v1: The king is descended from the brother of Jared and is a usurper. He or his predecessor(s) held the rightful king and his heirs captive. Ether is one of those heirs - perhaps the person who should be king. v2: Seek to follow the Lord to the extent that you are filled with the Spirit. v3: "by faith all things are fulfilled" - that principle of action type of faith. But also, #2 & 3 - by faith in Christ, we receive the word and by obedience to the word, we receive forgiveness and blessings. v4: The surety comes only because you know that God keeps his promises (faith, knowledge of the character of God and the history of his dealings with me - through scripture). Your faith gives you hope and that hope makes an anchor for your soul. Anchors always have a chain or rope that is attached to something else - otherwise, they're no good. If your hope is an anchor to your soul, then the other end has to be attached to Jesus Christ - the only sure thing to which one can anchor. And your good works strengthen that connection and keep the hope and faith strong (see John 7:17). v5: The Lord doesn't work the way the world does - you must believe before you can see. Why? Because it is your belief and faith (acting on that belief) that creates the thing you wish to see. Belief is the idea (or hope). Faith is the act of creation. v6: The Lord will test our ability to have faith in him, to be faithful to him, and to live by faith - to act according to the agency we've been given - which means to act in his name (or in our own, to our condemnation). v7-9: Christ showed by his resurrection that resurrection is possible. His existence gives reason to hope and to have faith that the word of God is true and that God will keep his promises and that through Christ, we can be saved. This is the anchor and our connection to it - our hope. v10+: The prophets of old were called by faith. They were able to do their work because they had faith (and the doing of that word was acting in faith). v11: Christ makes all things possible for all of us, if we will have faith in Christ. v12: I personally believe this is very literal and that whatever examples we may have that seem contrary are merely incidences where we don't have sufficient information. Perhaps there are times when the interpretation is that the children of men will not perceive the miracle (despite it having happened, through the faith of someone) - is a miracle that is not perceived as a miracle still a miracle? Or was it just an unexplained event? A missed blessing? v18: Here faith is explicitly tied to the Son of God. No other faith has power to work miracles. Indeed, even faith #3 (in principles, truths, virtues) is tied to Christ since he is the source of all truth and all good things. If you are trying to help someone who is struggling and don't know what else to do, help them to increase their faith in Christ. v19: Back to faith type #1 and verse 5 - first, you see with an eye of faith (the idea, the belief, the hope), second you act in faith to create (bring about, instantiate) what you saw only through faith, and then, once it has been created, your eyes see it. This is how you create (bring about, instantiate), or allow God to create, all good things in your life: whether it's creating worlds without number, or rending the veil of unbelief and entering into the presence of God, or overcoming sin and weakness, or gaining a testimony of the Book of Mormon, or believing that you can keep trying to be faithful for one more day - whatever it is, if it is a true thing, then seeing it in faith, and acting as if it is a surety will yield the foreseen results. "...and they were glad." v20-22: There are already many promises available to you. These verses suggest to me that there's nothing wrong with seeking promises from the Lord - but as with all things, we should seek the promises with which the Lord already wishes to bless us. Our patriarchal blessings may constitute such promises. v23-26: There are multiple ways that the Lord may bless people. Rather than be upset by the blessing you lack, seek to learn what you have, and then to seek more, according to the Lord's will v26: Do not mock. Just don't. It's hard in this world, but break yourself of the habit. We are all made in the image of God. God is not to be mocked, therefore his children shouldn't be. The works of God should not be mocked, therefore the works of his children shouldn't be. Unworthy works should be lamented, mourned, avoided, or ignored, but don't risk your soul for the fun of mockery - it's an arrogant form of amusement. "my grace is sufficient for the meek" - not for the proud, for the meek - "that they shall take no advantage of your weakness" - don't take advantage of others because of their weakness - don't cheat them because they are ignorant or foolish. Don't mock them because they couldn't express themselves well or don't dress nicely. Be meek, be humble, invite the Lord's grace. v27: And oh how we need that grace. The Lord has blessed us to be weak (note that weakness is singular), recognize it and be humble so that you can work in the strength of the Lord, by his grace. v28: Plead for faith, hope, and charity. v29: Believe what the Lord tells you! v30: Perhaps you will never need to move a physical mountain, but all of us have symbolic mountains we need to move. Do it through faith in Christ. v31+: Prayer can include telling the Lord what you've learned about him - bearing testimony. This can be a way to learn more, solidify what you learned, and receive correction of misunderstanding. v34: "except men shall have charity" - this can work both ways - we must receive the gift (v36) of having charity toward others, but we also must be willing the receive the charity that Christ has for us - if we reject either, we cannot inherit eternal life. v35: Moroni has been working through the logic / principle that Christ taught him. Do you do that in prayer? Perhaps we should do that in prayer. Also, if you reject the gifts of God, he starts to take them away from you and give them to others. Don't reject the gifts of God. v36: Charity is a gift given to us, not a skill we develop on our own. Practice it (pretend, work, think), but also plead for it. v37: What a notion: "it mattereth not unto thee". I can't expound on it, but it strikes me as something to ponder. Learn to really see your weakness - be humble and meek. v39: "in plain humility" - it's Christ's humility being described here! He sets the example. He always goes before. v41: Do this - seek Jesus! Seek him in scripture, seek him through your actions, seek him through the witness of the Holy Ghost.

To be fair, I have no idea how brother Rush lives the gospel and I'm not about to speculate against him when I have absolutely no evidence against him. The observations I made pointed out possible concerns, for which there could be other explanations, and which would require more reading to determine the truth. That he has chosen to delve into this vision doesn't in any way suggest that he's not magnifying his calling, ministering to others, doing temple work for his deceased ancestors, or striving to share the gospel. Once I came to understand that one of Satan's titles is "the accuser of our brethren", I have tried hard not to accuse people. If my wording here seemed like accusations, this is me revoking them. I believe that making accusations, especially in ignorance, which would certainly be the case here, can give Satan a way into your heart or mind. We can live the gospel and encourage others to do the same without making accusations. We can choose not to pursue brother Rush's interests without accusing brother Rush of anything at all.

One of my favorite quotes: -- Ursula K. LeGuin, The Other Wind

Ether 11 After reading the heading: One might think all this doom and gloom is depressing, and couldn't Mormon and Moroni have spent some more time abridging the good times, but we have to remember, they were instructed to write this for our day - a day the Lord showed them. In short, it is warning us of our future and how to avoid it, if we will. Utter destruction awaits all who "ripen" in iniquity, so don't do that! Follow Jesus Christ instead! v3: Those who receive the prophets are blessed. v21: The Lehites. v23: Note that Ether is born in captivity, in the line of the "rightful" kings, descended from Jared. And that right now (per v17), a descendant of the brother of Jared has them in captivity and is the king. (IMO, this will matter when the story resumes.) If I have time (which seems unlikely), I'll try to get chapter 12 in today - we'll see. It's a doozie and worth spending a lot of time on - one of the great discourses on faith.

I think we'd do well to call it the dangers of under-cooking food. Everyone ought to already know that.

Meanwhile, everyone whose family has been eating stuffing cooked inside a turkey for longer than you've been alive, without getting food poisoning from it, please raise your hands. "can" != "will" Cook the thing right and you've got nothing to worry about. (We're seriously in need of another world war to set our worry priorities straight. )

Ether 10 v2: Again, remembering what the Lord has done helps one to remain faithful. Spend time today remembering the Lord (shouldn't be hard). v3: Don't the the sort of person who only brings peace to others by dying. v28-: When the people are righteous, they prosper; when the leaders are wicked, people suffer. v31: Oh, the lock icon (in my PDF, last week's thread) means they lived their whole life in captivity.