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3 Nephi 17 v3: Don't settle for the meaning of the words alone (see v15-17). Ponder and pray for more understanding (like the first Nephi did). v4: There are those lost tribes again. Don't know why I'm so curious about where they were and what records they kept, but I am. Perhaps it's because we know about the Jaredites, Nephites, and Mulekites, but have zippo from the lost tribes. v5-6+: Despite 1 and 4 (It's time for Christ to go elsewhere and do other things), he stays. And clearly he stays for a long time. I believe there's a lesson in this for us, rigid though our scheduling may be in this age of nanoseconds. v8: Healing requires faith on the part of the one in need. Increase in faith. v14: I've always thought this was a strange moment for him to make this statement. v15-18: They could understand, and yet they could neither speak nor write what they understood, nor could they even have imagined it themselves. I often wonder about this. Did he speak in their language, or (more likely IMO) allow them to understand a pure language (presumably the one we spoke as spirits)? And what could he have said that filled their souls with inconceivable, overwhelming joy? Apparently I'm incapable of imagining. But there have been times when, for example, I have felt overwhelming gratitude for a group of people such that there were no words to convey to them the depth and nature of the gratitude I felt (in part because there were long, complicated, and painful events preceding their actions about which they knew nothing, but which gave more meaning to their kindness than they could have imagined). For them to know my gratitude would have required a transfer of experiences that gave additional meaning to their actions and formed the depth of my own feelings. And we all know, there's no way to transfer entire experiences from one mortal mind to another. So I wonder if this isn't part of it, that God's language can fully convey not just the dictionary meaning of words, but the emotional and every other meaning that exists in the speaker - the things in the speaker that led to the utterance. Perhaps the language of God includes some form of shared thought and feeling. I have no idea (and apparently can't have any idea), but I wonder about such things every time I read these passages. (And when we get to Ether - spoiler alert - I'll wonder at how just 24 plates could contain as much as it says they contained. Again, the language Ether used must have been a better one - or those were really, really big plates... ) v19: I wonder if his words didn't also include a bit of grace extended, so that they could arise. v20: I doubt the wickedness of the people of the house of Israel mentioned in v14 (and I assume it was all the house of Israel, not just the multitude around him) had suddenly ceased, nor that Christ was no longer troubled by it. But here we see that despite troubling things, one's joy can be "full". Unless I'm wrong, I think this is another lesson to be learned - to have joy despite there being troubling things. v21: Christ would, of course, know each one of these children. Would remember their pre-mortal spirits and everything about them. Don't forget that he knows you that well, too. And is no less concerned for you than for each of those children. Turn to him, run to him, forget whatever pitiful thing you can conceive and ask him for the things you cannot conceive. 3 Nephi 18 (NOTE: He still hasn't left! Perhaps the lesson here is to tell people you have to leave several hours before you have to leave. ) I don't know if there's significance to this, but it is interesting to note the sequence: Christ gives the disciples power to baptize, then he administers the sacrament (before any have had the chance to be baptized), then he gives the disciples power to confer the Holy Ghost. v5 and 11: These make it clear that the sacrament is for those who are baptized - or, that it's commanded to be given to those who have been baptized. (There's nothing explicit about those who have not been baptized, though Christ himself just ordered it to be given to the multitude who have not yet been baptized into the new covenant - though he knows they will be, so....) v1-14: Do as Christ commands (whatever the command may be) and don't alter the commands, and then you are "built on his rock". Anything else has no power to withstand hard times. v16: Christ is our example - learn of him and follow. (v24) Multiple verses instruct us to pray, always in Christ's name. v22: Come to church, let all who wish come to church. v25: Invite all to come unto Christ. Kicking people out - sending them away - is laying yourself open to temptation. v31-32: Ministering. Don't give up on anyone, because they might change (and we can't know whether they will, so don't give up). v35: We don't know how his going to the Father was for their sakes, but it's interesting that we at least know it was. Perhaps they needed a break so they could rest and ponder and record. v38-39: Interesting that they were allowed to see him descend but not ascend.

Sorry, realizing that probably sounded critical. Was trying to point out that the Lord knows difficulty and can help us do difficult things - by focusing on him and through his grace, you can find the strength and humility to go and maybe even enjoy the service. And perhaps God will extend a little extra help, too, but if not, let his grace be enough.

I completely understand this desire. FWIW, you already owe him a big favor. Perhaps look at going and worshiping him through song as a means of thanking him. If he can be humble enough to endure birth in a stable, perhaps you can endure knowing your wife is in the congregation. Perhaps God will inspire very tall people to position themselves between you, or for lights to shine in your eyes so you can't see who's where, or something... Whatever the case, prayers and best wishes for you, Jamie. Hope you can enjoy the singing of Christmas hymns - we did that yesterday - the whole Sacrament meeting was just singing hymns (and hearing why so-n-so chose that hymn).

In Approaching Zion, Nibley talks about "goods of first and second intent" - apparently an idea from Aristotle. IMO, goods of first intent should be our entertainment and goods of second intent our work. But that would require a lot more effort than turning on the TV. (It would also yield a lot more satisfaction and happiness and beauty in the world.)

3 Nephi 14 More rules for living, from which attributes can be abstracted - mercy, generosity, humility, love, reverence, faith, compassion, kindness, respect, discipline, wisdom, work, diligence, obedience. 3 Nephi 15 One day, it occurred to me that when Christ says "the law of Moses", he might not mean the same things that the Pharisees meant, or that modern Jews might mean (for example). We know the Pharasees (or the leaders of the Jews in ancient days at least) made up rules that weren't part of the law of Moses, to "hedge" the law so that no one could "come close" to breaking it. While I'm not going to try at the moment, I think it would be worth studying what Christ might have meant by "law of Moses". Certainly it would include the mandated animal sacrifices which were symbolic of Christ's atonement. v1: remember and do - sometimes we make things more complicated than they are. Don't forget to study and focus on the simple things Christ taught. v5-8: Just because the law of Moses is fulfilled, that does not mean we can ignore the Old Testament - there are other prophecies and covenants which are not fulfilled, but which will be. v9: Focus all you do on Christ - when you keep the commandments, keep them with a focus on Christ. v18, 22-24, 16:4: Don't be stiffnecked, don't make assumptions, seek sure understanding - like the first Nephi did. 3 Nephi 16 v1-3: I really want to know where these folk were and to learn about the Savior's visit to them. I expect he taught them the same thing as he taught the Nephites, but still, I want to learn more! v4: Seek knowledge by the Holy Ghost! v4-5: Wherever they were, all of Israel is now scattered and it's our job to help gather them. v6-8: Be a believer! v10: Sad days. v11-15: Trust the Lord. Be part of the house of Israel. Repent and be numbered.

3 Nephi 12 (It's worth noting that 11:18-41 was addressed to Nephi and the other disciples Christ had called, not to the multitude.) v1: The end of this is interesting. They have seen Christ, but really, at the end of the day, this doesn't prove that he's the Son of God, nor that he can save us from sin. Even these folks had to have faith that Christ would bring about their salvation, just as we do. v3+: I'm not going to comment on the entire sermon on the mount. Be these things and you will receive the gift of eternal life. v13-16: The few bring flavor and light to the many. Be one of the few, the humble, the disciples of Christ. v19+: The beginning of a higher law, one of thought, feeling, and intent, as well as action. v30: "take up your cross" - of all people, Christ would not use this phrase lightly. It's worth treating as a sacred command. v45: Really, this is the reason to do all these things - so that we may rightly be the children of our Heavenly Father. 3 Nephi 13 In some ways, these verses (and many of the last chapter) are exemplifying virtues or attributes we should develop. v1-8: humility, trust in God. v21: Also an underlying message through the whole chapter - where your heart is determines where you will go. v25+: I've heard someone use the fact that this is addressed to the 12 disciples as justification for seeking riches (if you're not one of the apostles). Personally, I think there's a principle here. Whether you're working to provide for yourself and your family, or whether you're in the full time service of the Lord, "seek ye first the kingdom of God". The details may vary, but the priority shouldn't.

Just posted next week's thread: Sorry, @askandanswer, I keep forgetting to do this on my Saturday!

Please see the Book of Mormon Reading Group thread for details (and discussion of 1 Nephi 1 - 5). Our goal is to read the Book of Mormon by the end of the year. I'll make a new post before each Monday so that it's ready to go - weeks go from Monday to Sunday for our purposes. This week's schedule: Dec 11 3 Nephi 16 Monday Dec 12 3 Nephi 18 Tuesday Dec 13 3 Nephi 20 Wednesday Dec 14 3 Nephi 22 Thursday Dec 15 3 Nephi 26 Friday Dec 16 3 Nephi 28 Saturday Dec 17 4 Nephi 1 Sunday Last Week: Book of Mormon Reading Group: 04 Dec - 10 Dec 2023 (Helaman 15 - 3 Nephi 13) Thread Index

Hmm. Henry Hoover is a good name for a vacuum. Looking forward to tomorrow's installment.

See here.

To those people, I say, "Go back to your humbug while the rest of us sing a beautiful hymn!"

3 Nephi 8 & 9 It's easy to miss that this voice was speaking while they were still in darkness. Chapter 8 ends noting that the darkness lasted 3 days, so it's easy to think that the darkness ends with chapter 8... I cannot find anything explicit in 8 or 9 to say it was light or dark, but... The heading of 9 says "In the darkness..." (and I'm not about to second guess Elder McConkie, even if he himself said these were neither scripture nor without error) 8:23 says that for three days "there was no light seen" and the people were "mourning and howling and weeping" continually. (But presumably they stopped with the voice started.) All of this is to point out that the voice of Christ was heard immediately after all the destruction, at some point during the three days of darkness. (And to set the scene for comments on chapter 10.) 3 Nephi 10 v2: They ceased lamenting and howling for the loss of their kindred - suggests that this is still during or immediately after the three days of darkness. v1-2: Other than Christ taking credit for all the destruction, the things he said in chapter 9, should not have been a surprise. They had been taught that Christ would redeem them from their sins, that they must repent, and that after Christ came, the law of Moses would be done away. It's likely the survivors (the more righteous, even if not that righteous) would remember at these the basics of that. Perhaps it was a little surprising that the new sacrifice was as "simple" as a broken heart and contrite spirit, but I don't think any of that is enough to account for many hours of silence. I suspect that it was both the voice out of nowhere (so to speak) and the power of Christ that caused this stunned silence. I have no idea what it's like to hear the voice of Christ speaking seemingly from nowhere, but I think there's a lesson here. Christ gave these people time to "process" what they had heard and felt. Whether they did that was up to them. Therefore, we should choose to take time to "process" (aka document, ponder, study, and pray) when we have spiritual experiences - great or small. We should make silent time and space wherein to receive what God has sent to us. I believe that the better we get at that, the more we will receive (and the faster we'll be able to process it). v5: "ye that dwell at Jerusalem". In 9:6-7, the Lord says the Nephite / Lamanite city of Jerusalem was sunk into the earth and waters were caused to come up in their place. Therefore, it seems more likely that the Lord is addressing the Jerusalem where he had ministered. And this makes me wonder: Is this one of those cases where the Lord addresses a people without them hearing it (similar to Luke 13:34 - few would have heard him speaking these words), or was his voice heard in the old world and we just have no record of it? The first half of his words (chapter 9) was very specific to the Nephites and Lamanites, but this part appears to be common to the entire house of Israel... Anywho, just a curiosity. (But before you go wondering how such a thing could be lost, see v16-17 about things that were on the plates of brass that are not in the Old Testament.) v5-6: Be like a cute baby chicken, and go huddle under Christ's wings where it's safe and warm. v9: Aha! So this was during darkness. v10: When the trial is over, praise and thank the Lord (but turn to him during it, too). v12: Receive prophets, don't murder saints. Seems like a pretty low bar for survival. Choose to survive. Better, choose to be a saint. v13: Fates to avoid. v18: Mormon at least knows that Christ returned to minister among his apostles before ascending into heaven, and that he came to the Nephites after that. Note that those who survived received great blessings. Be a survivor. 3 Nephi 11 Per the end of chapter 10, this is a considerable time after all the destruction, darkness, and hearing the voice of Christ. v1: When you feel prompted to go to the temple (and perhaps even if you don't), go to the temple! (Just in case you might otherwise miss out on something spectacular...) v3-6: There's no indication in chapters 9 and 10 that the people had any trouble hearing and understanding the voice of Jesus Christ also, no point of origin is specified for Christ's voice. But here we have a voice coming from heaven. And unlike Christ's voice, they cannot immediately understand it, not even the second time (v4) when it's no longer a surprise. It takes three times (a symbolic number, whether there's meaning here or not - though there's certainly meaning in God being willing to (I assume) repeat himself). v3: Important points: not harsh, not loud, "small" (probably like a whisper). And yet: it pierced them to the center, causing "their frame" to quake. It pierced them to the very soul and caused their "hearts to burn". If just God's voice does this (without even understanding the words), just imagine what his presence would do to you! Some connections my brain made: 1 Nephi 16:2 states that the truth cuts the guilty "to the very center" (God is, of course, a God of truth). It is perhaps slightly easier to understand why the Israelites in the wilderness told Moses, in essence, "You go talk to God, we'll stay here." Joseph Smith taught that "God dwells in everlasting burnings" (ToPJS, section six, p361). And of course, there's the obvious "burning in the bosom" that signified a confirmation from the Spirit for Oliver Cowdery. (Klaw says, "Too much scripture study! Not enough play!") v5: They "opened their ears", they looked toward the sound, looked steadfastly toward heaven - we should do the same! v8: I'm not so hard on the Nephites as @askandanswer - it's not like they had a photograph of Christ, or experiences similar to this to compare... I have to believe Christ was suppressing a significant percentage of his glory (which would be the same as the Father's glory at this point) in order for the people to endure his presence (and not immediately collapse under its "pressure" - for lack of a better way to phrase it). v14: I have always assumed that Christ had the power to keep or lose these marks of the crucifixion at his will, and that he will keep them for as long as he deems them necessary. As to the multitude feeling them one by one - clearly, the Lord wanted a people with zero room for any doubt, a people with absolute knowledge of this at least. And I have to believe that a massive spiritual healing and witness was happening for each of those individuals, at the same time - more than just what they saw and felt with their hands. v15-17: I don't think they needed all this before they could worship, I just think that's the sequence of events, as directed by the Lord. v28-30: We should not contend with anger about doctrine (or anything, but particularly about doctrine). We have a prophet, and we have various key-holders under him, we should yield to them and to scripture to teach us, and not argue it out in Sunday School. v31+: Christ's doctrine: repent, believe in Christ, be baptized. v35: Fire again. Seek witness from the Holy Ghost - that witness is more sure than whatever your eyes see and your hands feel. v37-38: When the Lord repeats himself, pay attention! v39-40: Oh, hey, building. Gonna have to go note this in my other thread! Only when you base your behavior on Christ's doctrine are you safe and stable - base it on anything else and you're doomed to fall eventually. v41: Share the gospel of Jesus Christ with everyone.

Some links, for reference: 3 Nephi 11:39-40 Matthew 7:24-27

Well, we can't let this part of the story go by without the one Christmas hymn in hymnal written by a Latter-day Saint: Not my favorite rendition, but whatever.

I loved the joke between him and Elder Holland in this and E. Holland's talk.

Joseph Smith was seeking and expecting an answer from God - he was already listening. These people were just going about their lives, surprised by a voice suddenly coming from who-knows-where. It took them time to figure out what was going on and listen. I find it more interesting that to understand the voice of God requires active effort on the part of the person God is addressing - that's not something we really think of in regards to listening to someone speaking in our language. I think their reactions in v3 (in other words, the effect of the voice on the hearers) are equally interesting and revealing. It would seem that baptism under the old covenant (law of Moses) was not sufficient, and the people now needed to be baptized into the new covenant.

No worries, I just like to go read the original, see footnotes, etc. And I'm far from having chapters and verses memorized. I knew that it was New Testament and recognized it, just didn't know which gospel it was from, or which chapter. Thanks!

OK, it was an "Ewwwww" icon:

Wasn't someone saying we need a "barf" reaction icon?

I believe the sacrifice consists of choosing God above all else / all others. Choosing him no matter the cost or perceived cost. Some examples: being anxious to give up whatever the Lord asks you to give up (stuff, behaviors, thoughts, feelings, even people) being anxious to do whatever the Lord asks you to do being willing to enter heaven while all around you are trying to keep you out or even (and yes, this is absurd, but it makes the point) being willing to enter heaven if everyone already there is saying they don't want you there, but God is saying, "Come." When you're able to choose God first and always, no matter what or who, then you're ready to be chosen by him. This, I believe, is why the first commandment is first, and why it's the greatest. And why it's to love God, because nothing short of love would give you the strength to do all that.

3 Nephi 8 v8+: Don't stay in those places where wickedness is all that's left. (If a "place" is causing / encouraging you to choose wickedness, leave it and go where folks will help you choose repentance and righteousness.) v21: When you cast the Lord out of your life, there can be no light. Do whatever is necessary to have him in your life instead. v24-25: Repentance is less painful than regret. 3 Nephi 9 v2: I don't know about now, but back in the 1980s, this portion of the Hill Cumorah Pageant (and Wikipedia) was pretty impressive. They had man-tall speakers booming out this "wo, wo, wo" and you could feel it vibrating right through you. v13-14: Turn to Christ - everything he offers is good. v17: Though we are all spirit children of our Heavenly Father, this "And as many as have received me, to them have I given to become the sons of God" (italics mine) is something more - a covenant and future relationship with God the Father and Christ. This phrasing, "become the sons of God" appears in the New Testament (John 1:12), Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants (11:30, 39:4, 42:52, 48:8). The idea is expressed in other phrases in additional locations (New Testament, Pearl of Great Price, probably the Book of Mormon and D&C). Anywho, I find this phrasing interesting - "given to become", "power to become". To a member of the Church, this can only be a reference to our covenants and the promise that we may inherit all that God has. But I also think it refers to becoming adopted children of Christ, through those covenants. v20: A broken heart and a contrite spirit. Remember to work on these, humility being the common element. v21: Christ came to save. Choose to be saved. v22: ...by repenting.

(Any chance you could make an effort in future to give us the citation? Yes, I can find it easily enough, but I could find it even easier with a book and chapter.) This starts in Mark 10:23 and Luke 18:24 (some days, I hate the topical guide. Why did it not include this one, too: Matthew 19:23). If I'm reading the Blue Letter Bible entry for "riches" correctly, then in the plural it most often means "money", but can mean "whatever is for use, whatever one uses, a thing, matter, affair, event, business". Here's the entry of "for a rich man". That first entry could be interpreted as anyone who has any money (even just a penny) or any possession at all. The second one appears to be limited to those "abounding in material resources". I don't know why they were so amazed and astonished, except perhaps as a cultural thing. Perhaps it would be like speaking to an American and substituting "liberty" for "riches"... I don't know. I do know that it's awfully hard not to "trust in riches" - I mean, in theory, I could sell everything but the clothes on my back, give the money to the poor, and then get on my knees and say, "OK, what now, God?" - but I don't have sufficient faith to do that (especially not on December 8th in the northern hemisphere).

Peter is a strange fellow. Fude nibs: (from this page (not the same artist): https://sketchbookskool.com/blog/sailor-fountain-pen/ ) If you start the video at 8:34, Peter demonstrates. What's so special is that they can create a range of line widths depending on the angle to the page and whether you turn them upside down (called reverse writing). Generally speaking, this is most useful for artists and they are probably the target users, but you can use them for writing text, if you wish. There's a very wide range of specialty nibs. The "common" nibs have mostly round tipping at the end of the nib and make a single line width regardless of the direction in which the pen moves (the letter O has the same line width around the circle). They come in different sizes (extra-fine, fine, medium, and broad being the most common) and the line width corresponds to the size. These are most like other types of pens. Then there are stub and italic nibs which make a wider line going down and a narrow line going across. The architect or Hebrew grind does the opposite - narrow down-stroke, wide cross-stroke. Flexible nibs allow one to write Spencerian or Copperplate style text (where a portion of the stroke is wider and a portion very fine, without changing the direction of the stroke): And many, many others.

Best wishes figuring out the perfect gift! I know that can be a difficult decision. (Perhaps you should get yourself the fountain pen and use it to write him letters. If I had a choice between getting a pen from Dad or a letter from Dad, I'd choose the letter every single time.)