zil2

Yeah, it's one of mine, too.

Helaman 15 v3: It's easy to look at all these calls to repent (complete with their warnings of impending suffering) and talk of chastening and such as harsh or something to stay away from. But this verse reminds us that chastening (correction) is always done out of love. Just as a parent correcting a child, or a teacher / tutor / mentor correcting their student, this is done to help, not to harm. Indeed, it's done to prevent unnecessary harm (either done to or by the child / student). If we can remember this, then we can look at correction of every type as a good thing, a thing that even if painful, is designed to do us good. And that ought to make it at least a little easier to accept the correction and change our behavior. v6: "unwearied diligence" sounds wearying to me. But then I think of things I love doing - I can do them for hours, losing track of time and enjoying myself the whole time. There are even things which I didn't particularly want to do, but once I start, I lose track of time and when done, am very satisfied with the work I got done. IMO, this is what we should strive for with the gospel - building up our spiritual muscles so that we can do gospel work in a way that we lose track of time, enjoy the process, and find great satisfaction when the work is done. v7-8, 10: Once converted, be firm and steadfast! v9: Fear to sin. (Apparently the example set by the people of Ammon was followed for generations among Lamanite converts.) v11-13: The Lord continually tries to redeem various groups of people. That should convince us that he will continually try to redeem each individual as well - so turn to him and he will help. Helaman 16 v2: In some ways, it baffles me - what do you care if some crazy Lamanite says you're a vile sinner doomed to destruction? He's crazy, after all. And yet, folks always get mad when they're told things like this - they can't just dismiss the nut job and go back to their lives, they have to kill or drive out the nut job. But it also doesn't baffle me - this is both their own conscience telling them it's true, so they either have to give up their beloved sins or kill the nut job; and it's Satan, stirring them up to even greater wickedness - heaping coals on their heads. Try not to defend your sins - cast them out instead. v13-14: I wonder if there will be similar things before the Second Coming - I would assume so, despite the "no one knows" and "like a thief in the night" bits - I think that will apply to the wicked. The combination makes me also think that one should do all they can to be worthy of learning from the Spirit for themselves, lest for unworthiness you find yourself surprised when the Lord shows up... v16+: Sounds very similar to what we hear today. v18-20: Pride! v20-22: Calling good evil, and evil good. v23: Note that the signs and wonders were only among the people of the Lord - signs follow believers, not the other way around. 3 Nephi 1 I'm not so skeptical about Nephi's departure as @askandanswer seems to be. I expect the Lord took him home - or translated him, or something like that. v5: This is also predicted for the Second Coming - that people will say the Lord delays his coming. v6: Another thing that sounds familiar. v13: We don't have to wait for "the morrow" - the Lord came, and can come to each of us when we need him, and we can be his hands for when someone else needs him. Rejoice all the time. The Lamanites and Nephites are like a roller coaster ride...

Welcome to ThirdHour, @M Tolm! I hope to hear more from you.

Remember that the Book of Mormon was about 1/3 of the plates Joseph had. The other 2/3 were sealed. So Mormon wrote more. Or Moroni did. What was on those other 2/3 and how they were organized, I couldn't begin to guess, except to say that it would make sense if after the history, he wrote more prophecies and doctrine - perhaps more things related to the last days or the Millennium.

Helaman 13 v2-3: Very much like what happened to Alma at Ammonihah, except Alma had Amulek to help him. Apparently there wasn't one worthy companion for Samuel in all of Zarahemla. v4-5: Let the Lord put things in your heart. Prepare your heart to receive what the Lord would put there. Act on the things the Lord puts in your heart. v6: Nothing can save any of us except repentance and faith on the Lord Jesus Christ. v7: Christ's sacrifice and the blessings he offers because of it should bring joy to our souls. And we should want to share that joy. v11, 13: This is always the promise, so repent! v12: Well, there are some righteous. Perhaps more witnesses / a companion for Samuel wouldn't have made a difference. v18+: When you set your heart on something other than the Lord, to the point that it leads you into wickedness, expect the Lord to curse said thing (or your relationship with that thing, or you for loving said thing more than Him), such that you will surely lose said thing eventually. Not really sure what it means to hide up treasures unto the Lord. I know we should not be greedy, but should help those in need and otherwise use what the Lord has given us for his purposes rather than our own selfish ones, but that doesn't really seem to me like "hiding up treasures"... v22: Pride in its various forms and expressions... Be humble, instead! v24: Don't cast out those who teach the gospel of Jesus Christ. v25+: Don't be a hypocrite! v26: When someone points out your sins, rather than being angry, be grateful for help understanding what you need to repent of. v27: Be alarmed when someone says things that make you feel good about your sins! v33: Rather than lamenting later, be grateful now! v37: Do whatever is necessary to not be surrounded by demons!! v38: Quit procrastinating. Helaman 14 v8: Believe. v9: I cannot figure out what "prepare the way of the Lord" could possibly mean other than to clear the path between you and him, so that he can easily get to you and you to him. It seems to me that in a certain sense, this chapter contains everything you really need to know. Also, it highlights the symbolism of the signs of Christ's birth and death - when he comes into your life, he brings light, if forced out of your life, all that's left is darkness. v20+: One could say that the Earth mourned in sackcloth and ashes when Christ died. So, too, we should mourn, for we are the reason he had to die. Of course, we have more cause to rejoice - his birth and resurrection. v28-29: Don't wait for signs, believe. v30-31: Choose well.

I just created next week's topic. Sorry, @askandanswer, for making it late this week.

Please see the Book of Mormon Reading Group thread for details (and discussion of 1 Nephi 1 - 5). Our goal is to read the Book of Mormon by the end of the year. I'll make a new post before each Monday so that it's ready to go - weeks go from Monday to Sunday for our purposes. This week's schedule: Dec 4 3 Nephi 1 Monday Dec 5 3 Nephi 3 Tuesday Dec 6 3 Nephi 4 Wednesday Dec 7 3 Nephi 7 Thursday Dec 8 3 Nephi 9 Friday Dec 9 3 Nephi 11 Saturday Dec 10 3 Nephi 13 Sunday Last Week: Book of Mormon Reading Group: 27 Nov - 03 Dec 2023 (Helaman 2 - Helaman14) Thread Index

This. Abraham knew it, and Moses must also have known it, given what all he saw. I expect that at least the heads of dispensations knew it, if not all the prophets. Somehow, it was lost, repeatedly.

Waiting for the next installment with great anticipation!!

You greatly underestimate my ability to feign stupidity while letting you vacuum my carpet. And I only have one cat, with short hair. But I do have 6 vacuum cleaners, so it may take you several visits to demonstrate their various technical advantages.

I'd be perfectly happy if @Traveler wanted to drop by once a week and demonstrate the finer techniques of carpet and hard floor cleaning. I think after a hundred or so lessons I might be ready to try it myself.

Meanwhile, here's the page showing Henry and all his friends: Hetty, James, George, Charles, (and various other forms of Henry). Given the names, one might think this company is trying to suggest that kings suck...

This clearly belongs in our stickman thread!

I see him and another model with another name (George? - he's green, anyway) on restoration videos done by folks in the UK (and Europe?). Anywho, I love them - it's absolutely hilarious. Some guys make great use of the face on them as part of their videos.

It it a typo (memory-o?) and yes, my real name is Liz. I was named after a Russian limousine that would only drive in reverse. (For those too lazy to follow the link, these limos are called "ZIL"s.) (And yes, that's a complete and total fabrication. I leave it to the reader to determine the antecedent for "that".)

Helaman 11 v4: It does seem that a famine would be more likely to cause people to turn to God than a war / violence. v5: Can't say I've ever thought of it before this moment, but I see no reason why a similar situation couldn't happen today (in theory), nor why it couldn't have happened at any point when there have been prophets on the earth - the prophet praying for the Lord to replace one bad thing with another. v6: Get your food storage in order! v7: Don't wait until you're about to perish before repenting! Always remember the Lord. v8: It seems bizarre to me that instead of repenting and praying themselves, and even instead of going to Nephi themselves, they go to their civil leaders and ask them to go to the prophet. This really makes me think of those who look to the government to take care of them, and who want blessings without doing the associated work. Get on your knees, already! v9: Well, this does suggest they did that, but v8 still seems bizarre to me. (Not this V8 Nor this V8 verse 8!) Be humble. Repent. v10: OK, more good action happening. Sweep evil out of your life! v15: Don't wait for pestilence and destruction! v18: Be grateful for everything, not just the unusual. v19: You don't have to be the prophet to be and do good. v20-23: When good times start, resolve and work to stay humble and penitent so that they stay. Know that good times can lead to taking the Lord and his blessings for granted and don't do that. Know they can lead to pride and don't allow it. Plan ahead for the righteous things you will do in your spare time (that always comes as a result of prosperity). v26: Because everything can change "in the space of not many years". v29-31: Even for what sure seems like a righteous cause, going on the offensive does not seem to be supported by God. v34: Or perhaps the people who were trying to fight the Gadianton robbers had fallen into wickedness themselves. v36: Holy cow! Work on your attention span. Be quick to remember God, not to forget him! Helaman 12 Appears to be Mormon's commentary. v3: One reason why God allows suffering. Be humble. Love God. Remember the Lord every day. Be grateful. Seek to learn and do the will of God. v18-19: @Jamie123, this idea of possessions becoming "slippery" comes up again in connection with the people's wickedness in Helaman 13:31-36 (tomorrow) and Mormon 1:18 at least.

Someone has failed to learn the fine arts of fantasy and suspended disbelief!

Helaman 9 v16: This would have been my assumption (if I didn't already have a testimony that Nephi was a prophet). I don't know what lessons to learn from this chapter for personal application except that there is no loyalty or truth among the wicked, so don't be one of them. Even if catastrophic destruction isn't awaiting your civilization, personal destruction is the outcome of sin, so repent early and often. Helaman 10 v2: Pondering is good. v4-5: Seek as best you can to do the will of the Lord and you will be blessed. v6-11: Ultimately, the reward for doing the Lord's will is to be entrusted to continue and do more of the Lord's will - so learn to enjoy doing the Lord's will. v12: This is a true saint, one who goes immediately to do as the Lord instructs, not one who adds the Lord's instruction onto their to-do list, and then takes a nap... v15-17: Trust God to enable you to do the things he instructs (1 Nephi 3:7 - @Jamie123 , I almost didn't link that verse because everyone in the Church knows it...) (See the OP. I'm reading 11 and 12 tomorrow - the algorithm that generated this reading schedule has some flaws, I think...)

Helaman 7 v4-5: The definition of corrupt society, but also a lesson in reverse as to how we should behave and the things we should support or resist. v7: Grass-is-greener-ism. Can't blame him, but would the first Nephi agree with him? v10+: Not sure I would choose such a public place to pray aloud, but then, perhaps we need more of this. v11: What sort of society is this, where prayer is something to be gawked at? Bizarre. v18: Like any person with sense, when we continually ignore God, he stops talking to us. Don't ignore God. v21: Things that should not be important to us: getting gain, praise of men, gold & silver, riches, vain things of this world. Setting your heart on such things will lead to terrible sin. Keep God first in your heart. v22: The Lord is patient and gives every opportunity for us to change before leaving us to be destroyed. Helaman 8 v1-2, 5-7, 10: I feel like this is where we are in the world today - a small number of people riling up the masses for their own ends (indifferent to said masses). v4, 7-9: Be brave, resist those folk - they're cowards! Know your scriptures. v21: Perhaps this is the very reason the Lord led Mulek to the Americas... v22: We should also look forward and rejoice in Christ's next coming. v27-28: This is pure wickedness, when even your own brother is less important to you than power. This is a sure way to judge righteousness and wickedness - by one's attitude toward other people vs anything else.

Good points. I suppose the problem is when the identities are all fleeting and as @Carborendum mentioned, when they're divisive. Without a collective "American" identity, our country will tear itself apart. Look at the in-fighting of the Nephites - kept destroying them. Mostly, though, I feel sad for those who don't know they are sons and daughters of God - that knowledge is an anchor in the storm.

Those are just the primary things I could think of that used to ground people - tie them into a community and give them a sense of who they are (perhaps I should add, "in relation to everyone else"). If I had to go with what identity people should have, I would go with President Nelson's list every time. (Though not all will accept it, obviously.) Yes, and I imagine we'd be content if these identities were strongly held and taught, like they were when I was a child. But they're not anymore.

This morning on r/fountainpens (reddit), I saw that some poor soul had asked, "What kind of person uses a fountain pen?" I made assumptions and kept scrolling without stopping to read, but the question (and the fact that the population there is so young and woke) made me realize that folks look for "belonging" and external definitions of "what kind of person" they are wherever they can find it because it's not taught anymore. No one taught these poor people who they are. And I don't just mean the gender identity crisis people, I mean the vast majority of the most recent generation or two. At some point in the past, folks were taught that they were [nationality] or [religion] or [family] (and all the stuff packed inside the words). Now, they're taught to reject nationality and religion, and told that family has such a broad definition as to be meaningless. No wonder people are chasing after whatever fad or cause they feel like they can "belong" to. Sigh. The world needs the gospel of Jesus Christ. I was reminded of the May 2022 Worldwide Devotional for Young Adults with President and Sister Nelson. Critical quote: I don't know that I had any discussion in mind, it just seemed like people need to be taught who they are, and we need to make sure we don't forget who we are. Those of us who were taught (and have learned) who we are should be eternally grateful for that knowledge!

Have you seen this? Light the World Service Shuffler - scroll down past the banner photo to "Click the button below for ideas to share your light." Whoever came up with this is a genius. Screenshot:

Eternal Individuals Idea We were not forced into mortal life. A plan for our progression was presented and we were allowed to accept it (and become mortal) or reject it (and never progress beyond being a spirit being). Is it not reasonable to believe that something similar happened when we were intelligences (assuming intelligences are sentient individuals, which is an assumption)? That is, we were presented with a plan for our progression and we had the chance to accept it (and become spirit children of God) or reject it (and remain intelligences). IMO, Joseph Smith's teachings suggest this idea (eternal individuality). If this is the case, then God allowed each individual to decide for themselves the path they would follow and offered only the opportunity, without dictating the outcome. Alternate Idea If we were not sentient before becoming spirit children of God, if we were either non-sentient individuals, or "intelligence" is a substance or resource or energy type or whatever one wants to call it (just not individuals and not sentient*), then your question is more difficult to answer: either spirit children start out as unknowns (but that would require God to not know something, which kinda ruins everything) or God knew he was creating Lucifer (and all he would become) - and Lucifer was God's willful creation, not just enabling an intelligence to progress according to its own choices (IMO, this is seriously problematic). This idea (God creating Lucifer knowing he would become Satan) is a similar (but not identical) question to why Christ called Judas to the twelve, knowing Judas would betray him. Variation on Alternate Idea *The idea of a sentient mass of intelligence from which a portion is drawn in the creation of a sentient spirit child is also an interesting notion, but one with absolutely no scriptural foundation. It's very "science fiction"-like. An "intelligence-being" that can generate / output unending "intelligence-ingredient" needed in the formation of spirit children. What determines the amount / quality / attributes drawn, or is it a fixed value and everyone gets exactly the same? Might be fun to write a story, but I don't see it fitting well into what we already know.