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Or just that he has observed. Or he was lying. Or even that we knew those things pre-mortally. We have no reason to believe that we interacted with anyone outside God's sphere (vertically or laterally). Could you quote something or explain further? I don't recall anything that talks about Gods returning to former or less developed state. Progression, yes, but regression? (Or are you using a StupidPhone that automatically uncorrected whatever you were typing?) IMO, the various options for the mechanics of Lucifer and this mentor finding one another and meeting (none of which could have happened without God's knowledge) seem far fetched to me. More likely, Lucifer was just full of himself.

Welcome, @LeKillerWallaby! I look forward to hearing more from you.

But that's not what God said. I'm with @The Folk Prophet on this one. God is no liar. God is telling us what Satan tried to do. God was not fooled by Satan's lies, nor repeating them, he was telling Moses what Satan tried to do.

Helaman 4 I know Mormon is summarizing multiple years, but the Nephites sure seem to flip and flop awfully quickly... v12: Once again, it's pride that leads to wickedness and abominations. Be humble, have charity and be charitable. Help others to stay faithful and remember God. v13: This is applicable as a principle - don't go around bragging about how talented or skilled or intelligent or handsome or beautiful or whatever you are - when you start focusing on yourself to the point of boasting, the Lord leaves you to yourself, and then you're left alone to deal with your problems - which means you suffer a lot more than you had to. v15: If things aren't going well for you, search your soul for things to repent of (even if you think you're living the gospel). Repent, forsake sin, live closer to the Lord and things will get better (even if they don't seem from outside to get better, inside you, they will get better). v16: Even after repenting, things may never again be as good as they were before the sins. Try not to sin! v20+: Don't wait until you're in desperate circumstances to recognize your sins and faults. Be humble, work to constantly improve. v24: Be the kind of person the Spirit of the Lord wants to be with. Helaman 5 v1: Like Alma, Nephi decides to devote himself to the Church. Knowing where your efforts will be most effective can be a challenge. Be brave and let God lead you where you need to be. v2: Something to be aware of and resist. v4+: And who can blame them - much more joy to be had preaching the gospel and ministering to those who will receive than to bang your head against corruption and pride. v9: Don't let a day go by without remembering what Christ has done for you. v10-11: Repent! Give up your sins. v12: @Jamie123, this verse is very, very commonly quoted in talks and lessons in the Church. (Out of curiosity, I went to the scripture citation index which tracks citations of scriptures in General Conference talks and some historical writings, and found 91 references to this verse, not the most, by far, but a significant number. If this link works, it lists the top scriptures in order of most cited.) v12: Expect Satan to attack. Rely on Christ. v17: True repentance requires you to make an effort to repair the damage you did. v18+: I hope that if I have the privilege of hearing such teaching, I would respond well. v26: Open your eyes so you can see the marvelous things God wants you to see. v40-41: We should be asking the same question and implementing the same answer! v47: Faith in Christ brings peace. v51: Give up whatever is not compatible with the gospel. I often wonder if we will see similar things just prior to Christ's second coming.

It seems clear to me that the time of the gentiles is ending, if not already over. I see many parallels between the modern world and what we just read in the war chapters, and what we're about to read coming up to Christ's visit to the Americas. Fortunately, the world will end, and God is in control.

This is not the only explanation in scripture for suffering. Unfortunately, they really aren't clearly marked out, so one has to just read and note them when they're found, and there are a lot of them - because there's a lot of suffering in scripture.

Whatever helps you make sense of it works, IMO. It's a group of people "combining" to do bad things, so "conspiracy" is probably close. Modern day organized crime organizations, mobs, mafias, gangs, cartels would likely all be similar, if not identical. Another way to look at it is that these people are making the same agreement Cain first made with Satan - to murder and get gain, and keep their intents and identities secret.

And if (generic) you believe that the safest, most comfortable mortality is the best way to accomplish the best eternal ends, then I reckon you think God himself is evil even if he didn't create it. Or at the least, he's an indifferent jerk or plays favorites, or whatever. But Joseph Smith also taught us that there's a lot more both to mortality and to eternity than feeling safe and comfortable. (Sorry, I know lots of people struggle with this, but I don't, and the scriptures are full of explanations for why God allows suffering / why suffering happens. And there are a lot of reasons that any rational person can come up with for why suffering exists and why it's not the worst thing that could happen.)

My point is that most people believe that God created everything, everyone, everywhere, and everywhen. That all time and existence and matter and everything other than God was created by God. This means evil was created by God (whether directly or by creating that / those which would choose evil), since nothing co-exists, or pre-exists God, nor comes into existence without God. Joseph Smith taught that this is not correct. All intelligent beings have always existed. We are eternal, with no beginning and no end. In other words, there is some part of us that God did not create. Further, he taught that we are the same species as God and that God once existed as a mortal man. If all that is true, then space (room in which to exist) is also co-eternal with God (unless one wants to argue that beings can exist without having space in which to exist). I won't try to argue that clock-like time has always existed, but I think it's reasonable to believe that sequences of events have always existed, and therefore when has always existed. (How can you exist without existing for a duration? Eternity itself is a duration, so "when" has always existed - otherwise, how could I be using the word "always"? ) Therefore, we have intelligences, space, and "when" that were not created. Therefore, we do not have to believe that God created evil, or that he knowingly created beings who would choose evil, nor that there was something he didn't know (that some of us would choose evil), etc. We can believe that evil (the option to go contrary to light and truth) has always been an option, just as intelligences, space, and when have always existed. We can believe that he is helping intelligences to progress, if they so choose, and that if they choose evil, it is their choice, not his. If he holds any blame, it is in not stopping them (but we believe agency is so important that God basically has to allow it, by his own choice and because it is the most right thing to do). The "God created everything" crowd have to struggle with why God created evil (either directly or indirectly). Those of us who believe what Joseph Smith taught know that God did not create evil and only allows his children to choose it because agency is critical to our eternal existence. (And scripture teaches that when things get bad enough, God will step in and either guide his children away from the evil, or destroy those who have so thoroughly chosen evil that they don't need more time in mortality to make their choice.)

I submit that it's a major problem because they do not understand God correctly. Only when God is properly understood can the option of "evil" be properly understood.

Helaman 2 Spoiler Alert! The "Gadianton Robbers" are the recurring secret combination that destroys the Nephites. My dad once (maybe in the 1990s?) asked a (not-a-Church-member) law enforcement friend in Chicago (can't remember if he was police or FBI) to read some BofM passages describing these secret combinations and how they operate and tell him (Dad) his (LEO's) thoughts. LEO agreed and after reading said it was exactly like the mob (this was when the Italian mafia was the only one folks in the US were worried about). I don't know what personal lessons there are from this chapter beyond awareness that such secret combinations exist. Later, Mormon and Moroni warn us strongly that such will destroy us in the last days if we don't realize their existence and fight against their efforts to do exactly what they sought to do in this chapter (take positions of power and authority, murder and rob). Helaman 3 v5-6: I can only assume that the Jaredites are the former inhabitants mentioned. v9: Plan and sacrifice for the future! v24-26: Some of these people will probably still be alive at the time of Christ's birth. A few may even live to see Christ's visit to them (or at least their children will). v27-29: "...unto all who will...", "...to those who will...", "...whosoever will..." - God does not force himself on anyone, but he makes his gospel and blessings available to "all who will...". We have to do something, even if it's just to come to him. v29-30: Lay hold on the word of God. Follow Christ, so that your soul can "land at the right hand of God". v33: Be humble!! - do the stuff in v35. v35: "yield your heart to God" - you could easily spend 10-15 minutes in Sacrament meeting talking about this idea. In traffic, yielding is to let other cars go before you go, and then you merge into their lane and follow them; alternately, you yield to allow pedestrians to safely cross the road. In some settings, you allow another person to speak before you or in your place. Thus, to yield your heart could be to give it to God, but also, to let him speak before you do, or teach you what to speak. It could be to let him lead you, choosing to merge into his way and follow him. I'm sure we could find various other analogies. Anyway, it's a good phrase. v36: Don't let God's blessings go to your head! Squash pride as soon as you recognize it in you and choose humility and gratitude instead. Be generous and serve others, too!

This sounds like a variation on the tune for In Humility, Our Savior.

Alma 63 v2: "... and also did his brother." I have to assume this is Corianton - a small blurb, but it should help give hope that even serious sins won't keep you from progressing if you repent and forsake them. v4 & 9: As I recall, the folks who traveled north by foot didn't go so far that they lost contact with the folks at Zarahemla. v5: I wonder if these people went far enough that they were beyond the final battle between the Lamanites and Nephites and if, wherever they went, they then became the last remaining descendants of the Nephites (escaping destruction by the Lamanites). I can't remember these folks being included in anything further just that the folks at Zarahemla lose contact with these folk. I'll have to pay more attention as we read - I'm finding this fast schedule makes it easier for me to keep the whole story in my head. v1, 10+: Helaman (the son) must have been quite young when his father died, otherwise why give the records to Shiblon first? Helaman 1 v2: The system of judges as described back whenever certainly didn't require judges to be selected from within family lines, and yet the Nephites don't seem able to give up this practice of descendants inheriting judgeships.... Perhaps the assumption was that the father tutored his sons in what was required, thus qualifying them for the job... v9: @Jamie123, remember the name Kishkumen. He's one of the main characters involved in a "secret combination" that brings about the destruction of the Nephites (eventually), and that idea of secret combinations will be a recurring theme throughout the remainder of the Book of Mormon. v33: Love your enemies. Forgive 70x7.

@Jamie123, it seems like it's been a while since we heard from you. How are you doing with your reading? A lot of people strongly dislike the war chapters, others rush through them like a novel. Just checking in to make sure all is well.

And this is about as much as anyone not presiding should care about it.

Not to my knowledge. At least, it has always only been bishopric, stake presidency, stake high council representatives (on one side, speakers / participants on the other).

I can see the whole article (if you can't, disable javascript - apparently their paywall isn't sophisticated), so here's what I can see... Title and sub-title: "'A slap in the face': LDS Relief Society leaders ordered off the stand" and "Area president puts an end to this Bay Area tradition. Many women are asking: Why?" Apparently some wards in San Francisco have been doing this for "a decade or more". The article then goes on to create as much controversy, contention, and drama as it can manage. Humility and logic appear to be lacking.

I've never seen such a thing. What I have seen: Members of the Stake Presidency sitting with the bishopric The Stake High Councillor assigned to the ward sitting with the bishopric A member of the EQP sitting with the lone bishopric member in attendance That's it. Anyone else on the stand is over where the speakers sit, and they're speaking or otherwise participating (or sometimes another person from the Stake High Council there to present stake callings). I wonder if some wards have been having the RSP sitting on the stand and Church HQ got wind and told them to stop.

Alma 61 v8: I imagine they were scrambling for a while, but clearly Pahoran has a good source of intelligence if he knows about this correspondence and alliance. v9: A demonstration of how we ought to handle unwarranted criticism. v19: Counsel with others as soon as possible. v21: Don't just encourage others, strengthen them in the Lord. Pep talks are all well and good, but encouraging faith and keeping commandments and covenants is better. Alma 62 I suppose some people have to suffer a while before they understand the value of freedom. v40: Like Sodom and Gomorrah, the Lord spares places and peoples because of the righteous among them. (Beware when you're the only righteous person left!) v41: Don't let your afflictions harden you, rather, be humble, grateful, and turn to God for help through them. v49-51: Don't let your blessings turn you away from the source of those blessings! Pray continually.

I have created next week's thread:

Please see the Book of Mormon Reading Group thread for details (and discussion of 1 Nephi 1 - 5). Our goal is to read the Book of Mormon by the end of the year. I'll make a new post before each Monday so that it's ready to go - weeks go from Monday to Sunday for our purposes. This week's schedule: Nov 27 Helaman 3 Monday Nov 28 Helaman 5 Tuesday Nov 29 Helaman 6 Wednesday Nov 30 Helaman 8 Thursday Dec 1 Helaman 11 Friday Dec 2 Helaman 12 Saturday Dec 3 Helaman 14 Sunday (Thursday edit. Looking ahead, the break-down is bizarre. Liz will read 9 and 10 on Friday and 11 and 12 on Saturday.) Last Week: Book of Mormon Reading Group: 20 Nov - 26 Nov 2023 (Alma 52 - Helaman 1) Thread Index

I know. And I'm suggesting that one way to avoid such situations is to, essentially, punish people for accepting political power. (This is not my idea, BTW, I got it from a novel by L. E. Modesitt, Jr.) I can detail it, if you wish, but basically, if one accepted a position of power, one was required immediately thereafter to perform some service (I think for equal time, perhaps a longer time, I forget). The service was of a type that benefited the community and was neither glamorous nor rewarding beyond the fact that selfless service is actually rewarding. The modern equivalent would be something like cleaning litter from the side of the freeway. Obviously this is never going to happen in reality any more than politicians are going to make or keep laws that would limit their power and unjust privileges. In other words, we're daydreaming here. If we want to get realistic, then this is my only hope:

I recognized it.