zil2

Please see the Book of Mormon Reading Group thread for details (and discussion of 1 Nephi 1 - 5). Our goal is to read the Book of Mormon by the end of the year. I'll make a new post before each Monday so that it's ready to go - weeks go from Monday to Sunday for our purposes. This week's schedule: Dec 4 3 Nephi 1 Monday Dec 5 3 Nephi 3 Tuesday Dec 6 3 Nephi 4 Wednesday Dec 7 3 Nephi 7 Thursday Dec 8 3 Nephi 9 Friday Dec 9 3 Nephi 11 Saturday Dec 10 3 Nephi 13 Sunday Last Week: Book of Mormon Reading Group: 27 Nov - 03 Dec 2023 (Helaman 2 - Helaman14) Thread Index

This. Abraham knew it, and Moses must also have known it, given what all he saw. I expect that at least the heads of dispensations knew it, if not all the prophets. Somehow, it was lost, repeatedly.

Waiting for the next installment with great anticipation!!

You greatly underestimate my ability to feign stupidity while letting you vacuum my carpet. And I only have one cat, with short hair. But I do have 6 vacuum cleaners, so it may take you several visits to demonstrate their various technical advantages.

I'd be perfectly happy if @Traveler wanted to drop by once a week and demonstrate the finer techniques of carpet and hard floor cleaning. I think after a hundred or so lessons I might be ready to try it myself.

Meanwhile, here's the page showing Henry and all his friends: Hetty, James, George, Charles, (and various other forms of Henry). Given the names, one might think this company is trying to suggest that kings suck...

This clearly belongs in our stickman thread!

I see him and another model with another name (George? - he's green, anyway) on restoration videos done by folks in the UK (and Europe?). Anywho, I love them - it's absolutely hilarious. Some guys make great use of the face on them as part of their videos.

It it a typo (memory-o?) and yes, my real name is Liz. I was named after a Russian limousine that would only drive in reverse. (For those too lazy to follow the link, these limos are called "ZIL"s.) (And yes, that's a complete and total fabrication. I leave it to the reader to determine the antecedent for "that".)

Helaman 11 v4: It does seem that a famine would be more likely to cause people to turn to God than a war / violence. v5: Can't say I've ever thought of it before this moment, but I see no reason why a similar situation couldn't happen today (in theory), nor why it couldn't have happened at any point when there have been prophets on the earth - the prophet praying for the Lord to replace one bad thing with another. v6: Get your food storage in order! v7: Don't wait until you're about to perish before repenting! Always remember the Lord. v8: It seems bizarre to me that instead of repenting and praying themselves, and even instead of going to Nephi themselves, they go to their civil leaders and ask them to go to the prophet. This really makes me think of those who look to the government to take care of them, and who want blessings without doing the associated work. Get on your knees, already! v9: Well, this does suggest they did that, but v8 still seems bizarre to me. (Not this V8 Nor this V8 verse 8!) Be humble. Repent. v10: OK, more good action happening. Sweep evil out of your life! v15: Don't wait for pestilence and destruction! v18: Be grateful for everything, not just the unusual. v19: You don't have to be the prophet to be and do good. v20-23: When good times start, resolve and work to stay humble and penitent so that they stay. Know that good times can lead to taking the Lord and his blessings for granted and don't do that. Know they can lead to pride and don't allow it. Plan ahead for the righteous things you will do in your spare time (that always comes as a result of prosperity). v26: Because everything can change "in the space of not many years". v29-31: Even for what sure seems like a righteous cause, going on the offensive does not seem to be supported by God. v34: Or perhaps the people who were trying to fight the Gadianton robbers had fallen into wickedness themselves. v36: Holy cow! Work on your attention span. Be quick to remember God, not to forget him! Helaman 12 Appears to be Mormon's commentary. v3: One reason why God allows suffering. Be humble. Love God. Remember the Lord every day. Be grateful. Seek to learn and do the will of God. v18-19: @Jamie123, this idea of possessions becoming "slippery" comes up again in connection with the people's wickedness in Helaman 13:31-36 (tomorrow) and Mormon 1:18 at least.

Someone has failed to learn the fine arts of fantasy and suspended disbelief!

Helaman 9 v16: This would have been my assumption (if I didn't already have a testimony that Nephi was a prophet). I don't know what lessons to learn from this chapter for personal application except that there is no loyalty or truth among the wicked, so don't be one of them. Even if catastrophic destruction isn't awaiting your civilization, personal destruction is the outcome of sin, so repent early and often. Helaman 10 v2: Pondering is good. v4-5: Seek as best you can to do the will of the Lord and you will be blessed. v6-11: Ultimately, the reward for doing the Lord's will is to be entrusted to continue and do more of the Lord's will - so learn to enjoy doing the Lord's will. v12: This is a true saint, one who goes immediately to do as the Lord instructs, not one who adds the Lord's instruction onto their to-do list, and then takes a nap... v15-17: Trust God to enable you to do the things he instructs (1 Nephi 3:7 - @Jamie123 , I almost didn't link that verse because everyone in the Church knows it...) (See the OP. I'm reading 11 and 12 tomorrow - the algorithm that generated this reading schedule has some flaws, I think...)

Helaman 7 v4-5: The definition of corrupt society, but also a lesson in reverse as to how we should behave and the things we should support or resist. v7: Grass-is-greener-ism. Can't blame him, but would the first Nephi agree with him? v10+: Not sure I would choose such a public place to pray aloud, but then, perhaps we need more of this. v11: What sort of society is this, where prayer is something to be gawked at? Bizarre. v18: Like any person with sense, when we continually ignore God, he stops talking to us. Don't ignore God. v21: Things that should not be important to us: getting gain, praise of men, gold & silver, riches, vain things of this world. Setting your heart on such things will lead to terrible sin. Keep God first in your heart. v22: The Lord is patient and gives every opportunity for us to change before leaving us to be destroyed. Helaman 8 v1-2, 5-7, 10: I feel like this is where we are in the world today - a small number of people riling up the masses for their own ends (indifferent to said masses). v4, 7-9: Be brave, resist those folk - they're cowards! Know your scriptures. v21: Perhaps this is the very reason the Lord led Mulek to the Americas... v22: We should also look forward and rejoice in Christ's next coming. v27-28: This is pure wickedness, when even your own brother is less important to you than power. This is a sure way to judge righteousness and wickedness - by one's attitude toward other people vs anything else.

Good points. I suppose the problem is when the identities are all fleeting and as @Carborendum mentioned, when they're divisive. Without a collective "American" identity, our country will tear itself apart. Look at the in-fighting of the Nephites - kept destroying them. Mostly, though, I feel sad for those who don't know they are sons and daughters of God - that knowledge is an anchor in the storm.

Those are just the primary things I could think of that used to ground people - tie them into a community and give them a sense of who they are (perhaps I should add, "in relation to everyone else"). If I had to go with what identity people should have, I would go with President Nelson's list every time. (Though not all will accept it, obviously.) Yes, and I imagine we'd be content if these identities were strongly held and taught, like they were when I was a child. But they're not anymore.

This morning on r/fountainpens (reddit), I saw that some poor soul had asked, "What kind of person uses a fountain pen?" I made assumptions and kept scrolling without stopping to read, but the question (and the fact that the population there is so young and woke) made me realize that folks look for "belonging" and external definitions of "what kind of person" they are wherever they can find it because it's not taught anymore. No one taught these poor people who they are. And I don't just mean the gender identity crisis people, I mean the vast majority of the most recent generation or two. At some point in the past, folks were taught that they were [nationality] or [religion] or [family] (and all the stuff packed inside the words). Now, they're taught to reject nationality and religion, and told that family has such a broad definition as to be meaningless. No wonder people are chasing after whatever fad or cause they feel like they can "belong" to. Sigh. The world needs the gospel of Jesus Christ. I was reminded of the May 2022 Worldwide Devotional for Young Adults with President and Sister Nelson. Critical quote: I don't know that I had any discussion in mind, it just seemed like people need to be taught who they are, and we need to make sure we don't forget who we are. Those of us who were taught (and have learned) who we are should be eternally grateful for that knowledge!

Have you seen this? Light the World Service Shuffler - scroll down past the banner photo to "Click the button below for ideas to share your light." Whoever came up with this is a genius. Screenshot:

Eternal Individuals Idea We were not forced into mortal life. A plan for our progression was presented and we were allowed to accept it (and become mortal) or reject it (and never progress beyond being a spirit being). Is it not reasonable to believe that something similar happened when we were intelligences (assuming intelligences are sentient individuals, which is an assumption)? That is, we were presented with a plan for our progression and we had the chance to accept it (and become spirit children of God) or reject it (and remain intelligences). IMO, Joseph Smith's teachings suggest this idea (eternal individuality). If this is the case, then God allowed each individual to decide for themselves the path they would follow and offered only the opportunity, without dictating the outcome. Alternate Idea If we were not sentient before becoming spirit children of God, if we were either non-sentient individuals, or "intelligence" is a substance or resource or energy type or whatever one wants to call it (just not individuals and not sentient*), then your question is more difficult to answer: either spirit children start out as unknowns (but that would require God to not know something, which kinda ruins everything) or God knew he was creating Lucifer (and all he would become) - and Lucifer was God's willful creation, not just enabling an intelligence to progress according to its own choices (IMO, this is seriously problematic). This idea (God creating Lucifer knowing he would become Satan) is a similar (but not identical) question to why Christ called Judas to the twelve, knowing Judas would betray him. Variation on Alternate Idea *The idea of a sentient mass of intelligence from which a portion is drawn in the creation of a sentient spirit child is also an interesting notion, but one with absolutely no scriptural foundation. It's very "science fiction"-like. An "intelligence-being" that can generate / output unending "intelligence-ingredient" needed in the formation of spirit children. What determines the amount / quality / attributes drawn, or is it a fixed value and everyone gets exactly the same? Might be fun to write a story, but I don't see it fitting well into what we already know.

Helaman 6 When reading these things leading up to Christ's birth, death, and appearance in the Americas, I often wonder whether similar events will precede the Second Coming. This then leads me to try to figure out the way in which similar events could happen. Often, there are obvious similarities. Other times, I can't find anything. Take this chapter, who would the righteous Lamanites be? Would they literally be descendants of the Lamanites? Are the Nephites Church members, or gentiles, or...? Perhaps it's just new converts preaching to wayward life-long members... :/ Or perhaps I'm nuts. One thing seems clear from this chapter - Satan increases his efforts prior to important events - or perhaps in response to increased righteousness - or both... Work hard. Be humble. Don't set your heart on the things of the world. Resist Satan! v32: "...not many years..." It doesn't take long to drown yourself in sin, so repent early and often! v34: I wonder what explains the flip. Whatever the case, we should be on our guard not to get flipped (to wickedness), and not to dismiss as lost those who might be flipped from wickedness to righteousness. v37: Destroy the wicked by preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ to them!

Yes, but I hope we make no secret of it (though there may be Church members doing what this pastor is doing, I don't know). My complaint is not that he wants to teach what he believes, or even condemn those crazy LDS cult-folk. It is that he presented himself as having one goal, and then gradually switched to another while maintaining the claim that he was pursuing that original goal. The skeptic in me says it was bait and switch from the start. But maybe half way through he thought, "I can't keep doing this, I have to preach about how wrong they are" - but if so, he should have said so and dropped the pretense of just wanting mutual understanding.

The pastor is very likeable and at first I enjoyed his videos, but the more you watch, the more clear it becomes that his primary goal is to point out the wrongs in LDS teachings and scripture (and informing us what the correct belief is - namely, his). If he were only interested in mutual understanding, his engagement would be different (more like in his earlier videos). The later videos seem to me to be about making sure everyone knows the ways LDS teachings are wrong and what the right ways are. (And that's not how he presented his intent in the beginning - in the beginning, it was just "LDS believe X, we believe Y" and "we have these things in common and differ in these ways"; now, it's "here's how the LDS are wrong, and here's what's right".) Whether that explains your first observation, I don't know. #2: I think most Latter-day Saints aren't used to the level of scholarly analysis and reliance on what one learned in a theological university that this pastor uses when "studying" the Book of Mormon. His is a scholarly study, not (from the LDS perspective) a spiritual one (from his perspective, I'm sure they're one and the same). We rely more heavily on learning to recognize the witness of the Holy Ghost, and any Latter-day Saint who isn't already familiar with pastors like this guy are likely caught off guard. Also, see #1 - they fell for his "just honestly trying to learn" routine and don't recognize that he's really just looking for more effective ways to preach his beliefs to Latter-day Saints.

This bit from Hugh Nibley, Approaching Zion (chapter 4) seems relevant: Related: As I was transcribing this into my journal yesterday, I realized that Nephi, surrounded by a corrupt government and a corrupt people choosing that corrupt government, didn't try to fix the government or the political system that corrupted it. He left the government and preached the gospel, strengthening the Church and converting all who would listen. I won't say we as citizens should abandon the political process - not while our Church leaders tell us to be actively involved - but I will say we should focus as much effort on living, teaching, and sharing the gospel. And I would say from recent council from the First Presidency, that we can safely stop choosing parties and instead choose issues and individuals.

OK. Regression doesn't seem like the right word (even if it is), but got it.

This does make the mentor seem less likely and the arrogant child more likely.