NeuroTypical

Reposting: D&C 89 seems clear enough: meat "should not be used, only in times of winter/cold/famine". So, going directly to LDS.com and looking up the chapter, here's what you'll see: Note the comma after the phrase "should not be used". Compare that with a copy of the same section, out of an original 1835 Book of Commandments: Note the absence of a comma after the phrase "should not be used". It seems to have changed places, and now appears right after "it is pleasing unto me". This changes the sentence structure, and changes the meaning of the sentence. The original text reads 'They should not be used only in times of winter/cold/famine'. In other words, anyone telling you meat is only for winter/cold/famine isn't telling you what the Lord thinks. Compare to D&C 49:18-19 "And whoso forbiddeth to abstain from meats, that man should not eat the same, is not ordained of God; For, behold, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which cometh of the earth, is ordained for the use of man for food and for raiment, and that he might have in abundance." See, back in Joseph Smith's day, there was indeed a sort of 'religious diet fad' of the day, advocating limiting or eliminating meats from our diet. D&C 49 explicitly counters this idea. The original Book of Commandments Word of Wisdom section explicitly counters this idea. Somewhere, as we fallible humans added verse structure and tried to publish new editions, a comma crept in, and made it harder to understand.

I'm glad you were able to stop the assault CopenKagen. I see you second guessing your decision to employ your firearm, and maybe you're right - I don't know. I'm just thinking that someone worked up enough to punch someone in the face through their helmet in the middle of traffic, is worked up enough to try to seriously injure or kill.Anyway, they tell me that tens of thousands of assaults and other crimes are stopped every year with firearms - your story is a fine example of how it works. I'm glad nobody was hurt.

You can be a member of as many different organizations as will let you join, I suppose. But it seems that you can't be a fully believing member of two organizations that contain contradictory teachings. Catholics figure the Pope is the head of Christ's church, and the Catholic church contains the authority, which is held by no other person or organization anywhere on earth. LDS figure the Prophet is the head of Christ's church, and the CoJCoLDS contains the authority. Folks who consider questions like yours, often have two groups of people they want to keep happy or not dissapoint. Is that your situation?

I'm sorry, what exactly are you trying to communicate here? Is this supposed to be some sort of response to how gun-free zones are horrible ideas? If so, I'm not seeing it.No really HoosierGuy - the US experiences mass-shootings, where 4 or more people are killed, multiple times a year. This is not fantasy talk from old western movies - this is the reality of living in the United States in the 21st century. No really - just about every single one of those occur in what they call a 'gun free zone' - defined as a building or area where guns are not allowed (as communicated in a sign or policy, or legislated into law). No really, I did actually cite about a dozen of them occuring in schools where guns are not allowed. You can google any of them. What does this have to do with old western movies? Hoosier, your fear was a top response back in the late 1980's, as Florida and other states began allowing conceal-carry permits. Your fear was the subject of much studying and data-gathering and results-presenting. It's been over 20 years. Just about every state allows conceal carry now. Your fears were never realized. Permit holders, compared to their non-permit-holding peer demographic, have lower rates of violent crime, and are less-likely to have some sort of gun-related accident.Hoosier - your fear is over 20 years old, and have been pretty well disproven for at least 15 years. No, issuing permits and allowing people to defend themselves will NOT get more people killed. If you disagree, please cite the study that says otherwise. Lots of researchers have been looking for a long time - you think they would have presented something by now. Hoosier, what state do you live in? If it's Utah, people have been carrying in restauraunts for decades. I specifically remember carrying at an Applebees back in 1998 when I lived in Utah. In 2010, a quarter of a million Utahns had conceal carry permits.No really Hoosier, you've been surrounded by law-abiding people, legally carrying concealed handguns, for two decades now. It seems you're hesitant to accept this reality, deflecting it with talk of wild-west movies. Just because you can't see them, doesn't mean they're not there, you know...

Happ

I won't answer for JAG, but I can answer for myself. Absolutely. The jury has rendered it's verdict - "gun-free zones" are terrible ideas that don't work. They create false senses of security. They allow mass-shooters to rack up large body counts before help arrives. Look at it this way - as you walk your first-grader through life in the U.S., they're already surrounded by law-abiding people with guns. You know that, right? The mall, the gas station, children's sports events, the grocery store - your child has been around armed private citizens for over of 20 years now. Depending on your state, maybe upwards of one in twenty random people are legally permitted to carry. They can't in schools, due to federal and state law. (Notable exceptions would include places where the rich and the elite class send their kids to school.) I guess the relevent question here is to you, HoosierGuy. Count the dead: After SandyHook (27), Oikos University (7), Chardon High school (3), Virginia Tech (33), Nickel Mines (6), Red Lake senior high (8), Columbine (15), Westside Middle school (5), Heath High school (3), Frontier Middle School (3), Lindhurst High School (4), Cleaveland school (6), and almost a hundred other school shootings where people died. The question, HoosierGuy, is why on earth would anyone want to stick their kid in a situation where if a bad guy shows up with a gun, none of the responsible adults are allowed the ability to adequately defend the children in their care?

We sing Christmas songs year 'round. Not like the normal traditional ones, but all the parodies and funny ones making fun of how overcommercialized it is.

Heh - a lady in my ward called fat people to repentence one Fast Sunday.

I'd like to hear what people are reading in the Word of Wisdom that makes them think it's a diet plan, or a way to avoid excess pounds. Ah, sweet sweet carbohydrates. Grain is so wonderful. It can be turned into partially hydrogenated palm kernel oil. How about unbleached white flour? Breads and pitas and donughts and muffins and Little Debbie snack cakes. Staff of life, right? I watched a show once about the diet they use to make Sumo wrestlers. Grain (a ton of rice) is indeed the staff of life there.I'm guessing people would quote the "these to be used with prudence and thanksgiving" part, but that's only referring to herbs and fruit. I know people are ticked off about meat. They also tend to be unaware of the moving comma. Here's a scan of the original 1835 commandment: Look at that last sentence there. It's pleasing unto God, that meat is used sparingly, but all the time, everywhere. People who say that meat should only be used in times of winter or famine, are misreading the scripture. God is telling us He disagrees with such people, and the exact opposite is pleasing unto Him. [Full disclosure - this whole post is a little tongue-in-cheek. I'm just pointing out how hard it is to prove that you're being righteously judgemental against anyone with the WoW, whether you're ticked off at a coffee drinker or a fat person.]

The Canadian and the lady from the Phillipeans are saying things that I wish more Americans understood. However, resistance to Austerity isn't just an American thing. It's a "mature empire begining to show signs of decline" thing. It's a "political success is divorced from financial accountability" thing. Greece is the most visible austerity-resister, but other countries in Europe are looking similar.

Here is a joke:

Sounds like that LDS person was doing a bit of rationalizing. To go into the temple, one must keep the word of wisdom, which basically states that we should not ingest coffee. That person's claim reminds me a little of another scripture: Those folks aren't doing it right.

Hi OldOkie! Some of the kindest folk I've met are either current or former Lutherans. What on earth is there for an electrical engineer to do in Oklahoma? Welcome.

If you get tired of partisan bickering, but understand there's a big problem and enjoy a beefy analysis, this article is a good read: Stratfor Global Intelligence - The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

Yes. I was paid on the 6th, and my taxes went up by around $100/month. Expiring Bush tax cuts, and also the expiring Pres. Obama Social Security cut.

Small point - just about every single school shooting ever, has happened in a school where guns were already totally banned from school grounds entirely. The concept of a "gun free zone" or area where guns are banned, is a lie that creates only a false sense of security. With only a very few exceptions, every single mass-shooting in the U.S. since 1950 has taken place in a gun free zone. (Mass shooting defined as 4 or more people getting shot, and 'gun free zone' defined as any building or area with a posted sign or a written policy or a law banning guns.) I'm not sure how workable it is, but yes indeed, that would be a great thing. They could bring their own guns, their own training, volunteer their time - it's just that there would have to be enough of them.Something to keep in mind - Conceal carry has been legal in Utah schools for quite a number of years now: Utah Department of Public Safety BCI - Concealed Firearm Permit Frequently Asked Questions I don't know how many school educators or staff have been carrying all these years. Probably not very many - I'd guess the ones who do, don't tell anyone out of fear that it would cost them their jobs.

An excellent article to read while I'm taking a good hard look at myself in the mirror.

Traveller, Anddenex, great posts. Many similar weighty thoughts have run through my mind over the last several years. I decided early on that I'd rather give up my wallet than draw. I'm almost about half-convinced that I'd take a halfway-serious beating rather than draw. But a main reason I carry, is my wife and I helped put a guy behind bars for 5-life, and he may come for payback some day, and I can only assume he'd intend more than a serious beating for me and my family. (That, and I live out in the middle of nowhere and need something to scare away bears and coyotes.) I've read many accounts from people in life-threatening situations, and they tend to be wide and diverse. There are accounts of the spirit directing actions. There are accounts of confident action, no time to think, and regret. Lots of accounts of long bouts of sleepless nights, years of lawsuits and second guessing, lots of wondering if they did the right thing. It's not a matter to be taken lightly. But then again, we have over 20 years of good data and studies of permit holders. I assume there are frivolous or immature carriers, yet a permit holder is less-likely to be involved in violent crime, unjust use of force, or gun accidents, than their non-carrying peer demographic.

I hadn't thought of that - good point.

I heard some city was offering to do one, and I heard something about a $50 gift card in exchange. I have no problem with some government entity offering to buy guns from people who want to get rid of them. I don't really think it will do anything to lower cases of violent crime though. If someone figures out they shouldn't own a firearm, it might prevent some accident or theft or something.

Well, I would tend to agree of course, especially concerning a decision like getting a firearm. But I'm wondering why you'd assume the sudden rush is emotionally driven. Watching that Facebook thread, I don't detect any fear, or much emotion besides maybe a little excitement. I remember when I got my permit all those years ago, it was a rather weighty decision - is somberness an emotion?There have been umpteen media accounts of shootings. Carrying firearms is being debated nationally. Maybe some folks have been thinking about it for a while, or are seriously examining the option and deciding to pursue it...

I've had several opportunities to have clarifying discussions with my kids in the last 3 testimony meetings. We had one of our youth commit suicide, and for the last three months, the dad has gotten up to air his family's dirty laundry, call out members who have offended him, and give us lessons about what the scriptures have to say about things. We've covenanted to bear one another's burdens that they might be light. This poor guy certainly has burdens. I get the impression that we are helping bear them by patiently enduring his 'testimonies' and just quietly helping our children understand the truth.

It's my job to talk about it with my kids when they hear it. And to discuss things with my wife. Stewardship is pretty clear there.

I keep hearing on the news how permit applications are skyrocketing, and just encountered it with folks I know. A random sister in my ward wondered on Facebook if anyone was interested in taking a CCW class with her. She said if she could get 4-5 other people they could do their own class, and it would be fun with friends. In under two hours, it looks like she's found over a dozen different ladies in and out of the ward taking her up on the offer. Good for them. I don't know if this is a mother of children thing, a mormon thing, a "we live an hour away from Arvada" thing, or a combination of all three. Is anyone else out there noticing friends/family/neighbors/ward members getting permits or otherwise getting more serious about self-defense?

Whether the primary children can sing in sacrament meeting or not isn't a 'teaching'. It's a policy, a practice, a preference. Put into place by humans doing their best - not breathed into scripture by the mouthpiece of God. This is an important distinction, because if you don't understand it, well, your testimony might be based on the words and actions of men instead of the reality and divinity of Jesus Christ. And men are error-prone, fallen, agenda-driven, and sometimes goofy. Professor Daniel Peterson tells a story about how he was once asked to participate in revising the Gospel Principles manual, and decided to play a practical joke: