Traveler

I was being sarcastic and attempting to point out why borders are important for a country. I would also contend that we have all policies and laws needed to open our borders for legal immigration (temporary or permanent) to fulfill all needs of any industry or enterprise. What I believe is broken with our border and immigration situation is more about not following the law or avoiding the law than enforcing the laws and working within the laws. This is why I am greatly concerned with a conclusive immigration policy – I want to know exactly what that would entail and why it cannot work the way things are currently defined by the law. Let me give a kind of example of how laws get screw up. A while back I read about two guys that got seriously injured while together, they each held a side of the mower in order to use the lawnmower to trim some hedges – and one slipped and lost their grip. Obviously, if the lawnmower had a deficiency that caused harm to the users – the company should be responsible. But a company should never be accountable for idiots that abuse the intent of things. But the lawsuit ruled in favor of the idiots because the manufacturer did not specifically communicate that their lawnmower should not be used in that manner. If anyone desires to bring laborers into our country – they are responsible for those workers and if they require medical attention those that employ such workers should be required to provide insurance. They are responsible for the duration of the visa. In my mind there is no reason to hold lower and middle-class taxpayers responsible for non-citizens’ health care (and other) needs. There is an element in our country to hide and keep secrets from citizens – especially taxpaying citizens concerning what is intended when laws are changed. As a side note – I believe it would be beneficial for youth in this country to enter (at entry levels) of labor in such a manner to allow children to learn to work without abusing them – otherwise they will grow up thinking that it is abusive to have to work. The Traveler

Thanks – I appreciate your contribution. I was born of goodly parents – actually 5 generations of exceptional parents. I grew up thinking every family was like mine. My parents would often refer to your picture but were adamant that it is not about where you came from, where you have been or even where you are – the only thing that is important and brings joy is the direction you are going. I was also taught to never draw a line between good and evil – the reason is that we tend to think all is well as long as we stay on the good side of the line. The great problem with that kind of thinking is that we tend to end up as close to the line as possible without crossing it. And yet, if we happen to cross that line by the slightest bit we realize that things do not change so much and are just as okay as before – thus we end up inadvertently redrawing our line between good and evil – moving towards evil. When we talk about such things, I become disappointed with the idea of perfect because it seems to me to be more about the destination than the journey. Rather I like to think good is the direction into the light and to travel in any other direction is evil. I attempt to employ this thinking when it comes to those struggling with dark things, weather it is the WOW, chastity, pride, LGBTQ+ or whatever – welcome to the path towards the light. Let us all work towards the light and take the next step together. The Traveler

Don't you mean 9/11 instead of the Mexican war? There is another problem with illegals. Lots of foreigners enter the USA legally through various visas and never renew, leave or notify anyone when the visas expire. According to a person I know well, that works in the medical business – that the vast majority of foreign individuals seeking medical attention that never pay (leaving it to those that pay to make up the difference) are foreign individuals with expired visas. The Traveler

If we listen to the political rhetoric of the two presidential candidates, the unaware and uninformed would easily come to your conclusion. Considering the historical policies of both political parties’ illegal immigration has been a problem for many decades. Both parties claim that our immigration laws are “broken” and need reform. But no one has clearly stated what is broken and exactly what needs to be changed to reform what is wrong. Trump, as a political and DC outsider is actually the first president that I am aware of that has made an effort to enforce immigration laws and prevent them from being broken - thus a wall. Biden on the other hand has done the exact opposite – in that he has prevented immigration laws from being enforced. I speculate that this is because he has sold (for wealth) out to the drug cartels and other foreign interests held mostly by enemies to our country. I do believe it is an act of treason for elements in our government to refuse to enforce our immigration laws. However, I am also of the mind that we are seeing a fulfillment of Book of Mormon prophesy concerning our society and government that was founded on principles of divine covenant to serve G-d. I am concerned that many of our freedoms that I enjoyed since my youth will be lost to future generations and that only those that respect the restoration of the priesthood in these last-days will find divine protection according to prophesy. The Traveler

Greetings @Highlander: Anciently there was a bridge that spanned the gap in conical Biblical scripture text to in part account for the 400 years after Joseph that the children of Israel were in Egypt. The records are considered apocryphal and are an account of the 12 sons (patriarchs of the 12 tribes of Israel) and their prophecies. The earliest text found dates back to about 100 years before Christ. Though it is one text it is considered to be 12 books – one for each son of Israel. Officially they are called the “Testaments of the Patriarchs” but are also known as the book of each of the patriarchs – Joseph being one of them. I am not sure if this particular “Book of Joseph” is the same as the one you are considering. If it is there is a translation of this book that can be purchased at Amazon along with the other patriarchs. I do not have access to my copy – perhaps something my dear wife has simplified from my dwindling collection – I think I will purchase a new copy. The Book of Joseph is of interest to LDS because of his particular blessing given by Israel (Jacob) in the Bible narrative. I personally find the Book of Benjamin as a document of interest to LDS. All of the testaments of the patriarchs ought to be of interest to Christians because of the witness of Christ – and we know were created at least 100 years before Jesus. These texts justify much that we learn from the Dead Sea Scriptures and why those Jews were expecting the Messiah. But I would highlight the Book of Benjamin because it references the “prophet of the gentiles” in the last-days that is also referenced in other ancient text (including among the Dead Sea Scrolls). I hope I am remembering this correctly – that it parallels the witness given in the Book of Mormon of a great prophet in the last-days among the gentiles whose name will be Joseph and who will be a descendant of the ancient patriarch Joseph. Some Christian scholars have suggested the Paul was the prophet of the gentiles but to me it is obvious that Paul is an ancient prophet and not the prophet prophesied to testify to the gentiles in the last-days. The Traveler

A long time ago (college) I did research on Pythagoras and the Pythagoreans. Pythagoras was not his real name but a name he took upon himself that was after a secret ancient Egyptian mathematical cult of which he had become a member. He leaked some of their secrets and as a result became famous. One secret bears his adopted name. The ancient Egyptian Pythagoreans were responsible for a great deal of the Egyptian engineering and architectural projects – all of which have an important impact on our modern mathematical theories. I have a personal theory that the source of the ancient Egyptian mathematics came through Abraham when he was in Egypt and were given by divine revelation. On another note – I have never see a good argument to resolve original sin (as a viable doctrine), creation of man, the fall - all in connection to the love, mercy and justice of G-d. Without a pre-existence and a post death – pre-resurrection existence: I do not believe anyone can justify any belief in justice or a G-d of mercy. There are shades of this conundrum in the current arguments of white privilege. The Traveler

Every once in a while, there seems to me to be a connection between things I thought completely unrelated. Just a little background. I am not a visionary person – I am more of a, have to see to believe person. My wife has wanted to remodel our home for a long time – I could not see the point. The house is a wonderful home. The tile in the entry, front hall and kitchen my wife and I put down ourselves decades ago. The cabinets in the kitchen we stained ourselves and added soft close hardware. I like our house – it is a good house that our children were raised in and our youngest was born after we moved in. We have been here 35+ years making upgrades. But the wife wanted changes. We are most of the way through this remodel. I am starting to realize that remodeling a good home is a lot like a Latter-day Saint repenting. Prior to starting all this the wife has been trying to convince me that a remodel would be a good thing. It did not make a lot of sense to me, especially considering all the blood, sweat and tears shed doing all the little things we have done over the years. She was talking about tearing down all the things we had worked so hard to do together. She has been watching HGTV for years and now is telling me that we can open things up and let in a lot of light. Then again things are not so important to me – so if it is important to her – let the remodeling begin. By now, readers are likely wondering, how is remodeling like an LDS repentance? We are told all the time that we should repent. Why? We work at our callings, we attend the temple, we volunteer for service, we don’t just try to be good neighbors – we love our neighborhood. We don’t break the word of wisdom – I don’t even drink caffeine soda drinks. We work out – we have repented of all the mistakes made raising our children – What’s left to repent of? Ya, this is how I felt about remodeling our home. It is okay the way it is – not just okay, it is a great home – I could live here till I die. My wife has different ideas. The first thing we had to do was get permits from the city. They require that we hire an architect and a structural engineer to make sure everything is according to code. What happens next is to tear down everything on our main level – including a few walls. When load bearing walls come down special beams have to be put into place and supports built in all the way down to the basement foundation. Sometimes good LDS (Christians) have to be advised about improving through repentance. Sometimes such advice is taken badly and those being advised call such reminders – shaming. And anytime repentance takes place – we have to remove all the things getting in the way of repenting correctly. Tearing things apart tends to make life difficult – even a bit miserable. One example is that we only had one complete bathroom in the house, and it was in the basement as far from the bedrooms as possible. There were things that still worked in some bathrooms, but a toilet did not work in one, sinks in another and the drains for everything but the bathtub (that no one ever uses) in another. The kitchen and laundry are trashed but we have a makeshift in the basement. Furniture is all moved to the garage or spare bedrooms (we do not know where anything is). Living becomes somewhat inconvenient – just like repenting. As we took down walls, we discovered lots of problems we did not know about – like some serious electrical problems and a leaky sewer pipe cultivating mold. Just like repentance – once we get into it, we discover things that we did not realize needed fixing. Nothing turns out to be as easy, cost or take the time we planned. We just finished the primer coat of paint, and I am beginning to see things come together. The wall of windows let in an amazing amount of light and the view of the mountains is worth it. There is so much more light. The wife removed the back staircase. I kind of miss it, it is inconvenient to go all the way around to the front stairs but then be back stairs were not code. Same with repentance – once we begin to see what is possible with change – we realize what a good thing it is. Mostly we think of repenting to get rid of sins. Martin Luther’s idea of repentance was to turn around and obtain a new point of view. I am beginning to realize that we do not have to sin to repent. We can repent just to make things better and get closer to G-d. The Traveler

It does not come as a surprise to me that many pets appreciate and get more out of science than their masters. 😁 The Traveler

There is no such thing as tolerance – just a passive aggressive intolerance of other’s intolerance. 😎 The Traveler

@LDSGator, @oldand @Phoenix_person - Greetings: I would join your conversations but with a little twist. I have learned that with politics one should avoid talking about labels. Rather one ought to look first at efforts and accomplishments. I believe that there is always enough common ground for those with different views to come together and accomplish things worthwhile and needed. It seems to me that all the discord comes from labeling and blame. There is another dimension and since this is an LDS religious site – it is the influence of Satan. I believe Satan sticks with tactics that work for him and his purpose. His main effort is to create divisions of hatred. The very best of human governments have serious flaws. Likewise, even the most totalitarian governments have things of benefit. I have personally been involved and seen elements of our republic democracy bring horribly evil results and I am also aware of elements of Nazi Germany; that any country ought to emulate (such as a very low crime rate and a robust economy during a worldwide economic depression). In short, we ought to be able to incorporate the best of bad governments and political endeavors and discard the worst of the best governments and political endeavors. The reality is that political ideas or not separated by some line of demarcation with good on one side and evil on the other. Rather ideas are a spectrum of varying possibilities. We ought to be intelligent. The scientific definition of intelligent is the ability to learn and modify outcomes. Governments are almost never capable of modifying anything it has started – mostly governments expand their mistakes rather than to correct them. I will give one example: During the US census taken in 1960 elements of our government discovered that if just 2% of our GNP was transferred to the poor sector – that we could eliminate poverty in the USA. Under president Kennedy and Johnson, the political program of the “Great Society” was undertaken. Its goal was to end poverty and environmental pollution (it was argued that if something was not done about pollution that we would cause an extension event within 15 years – that could possibly end humanity. These political efforts were intrenched by the end of the 60’s decade. It is now 50 years later, and our government is transferring almost 30% of the GNP into various poverty programs and increased environmental concerns significantly. All the increases came about because spending a little more was seen as a way to make things better. The aggregate result is that currently poverty is worse today than in 1960 and the claim is that current manmade pollution could destroy all life within 15 years. We are unable to undo anything because everybody is convinced that undoing anything would be far worse than expanding bad ineffective programs. I am not an economist by profession – but I have enough experience to know that when the largest single expenditure is paying down interest on debt – whatever the enterprise – it is in serious trouble. First off, things of serious need are unaffordable, making standards of living to drop and the economy for the enterprise is seriously damaged – which is a definition of poverty. The Book of Mormon highlights how turning away from covenants with G-d causes a society to devolve into “secret societies” (which BTW was the path that destroyed the Nephits) and that living covenants with G-d elevates a society – even to the point of ending poverty. Another thing is that we ought to learn is that legislating divine covenants was the first effort of Lucifer in the pre-existence. I would be most interested in a thread like this to hear ideas of what ought to be legislated or un-legislated rather than who should be or who should not be in charge. The Traveler

Name calling is (I think) the most undesirable outcome (result or proof) of corrupt politics. The Traveler

It is hard for me (extremely difficult) to vote for anyone in any party of this country. I am becoming less and less involved in politics because in order to get anything done one has to sigh up for either the republican or democrat party. It is my belief that both parties are controlled by modern day gadianton robbers. Utah has some good local politicians, but I do not trust any running for national office (with rare exception). The following is a short list of platform items that I support. 1 Immediately dissolve all federal agencies that infringe on State rights as defined by the constitution. For example, the federal education department – this includes any federal research grants to universities. No one working in these federal programs is to be reassigned to any federal program. 2 Replace all social and welfare programs with a negative income tax. Any additional needs are the responsibility of the states. 3 Anyone contacting or lobbying elected officials or unelected bureaucrats must be registered and all contacts, purpose and duration logged and open to the public. 4 No non-voting entities are allowed to contribute to any political campaign. This includes party funds. Political parties are not allowed to raise funds to be used outside of their organization – only their members are allowed to contribute. 5 Elected officials and bureaucrats are not allowed retirement benefits beyond Social Security and medical benefits are the same as for military and veterans. 6 The federal government is not allowed to tax any citizen. The revenues needed to operate the federal government comes from assessing states based on the number of their electoral votes and approved by the Senate. Federal deficits are only allowed during a declared national crisis and must be cleared following the crises. Until a candidate support my concerns – I will not support them. Realizing that no candidate nor party supports my political views – I reserve the right to vote privately (secret ballot) as I will. I also reserve the right to not take part in any polling outside of my private vote. I will speak as I will according to my right to free speech. The Traveler

I have an exceptional wife. Your comments reminded me of a story about a reporter interviewing the wife of Albert Einstein. The reporter asked if she understood Einstein’s theory of relativity and special relativity. She responded that there were a lot of people that understand Albert’s theories but that she was one of the very few people that understands Albert. The Traveler

I was in the army during the Vietnam conflict. My MOS was welder, and I was attached to 164th Engineers in Texas when me and everybody else in the battalion received order for Vietnam. Just as we were shipping out – my name and one other person were removed from the train that was about to leave. Do not know what happened to the other guy but I was transferred to a state side intelligent unit. I think I am the only welder to ever be attached to an intelligent unit. The reason I bring all this history up is to explain how I obtained information about interrogation and behavior modification technics. There is a lot of criticism concerning military intelligence – mostly by people that know nothing about it. There is a lot of dark operations in military intelligence – because dealing with enemies during conflict is dark. It is not as difficult as one might think to convince someone that something that is false is true. Likewise, it is not that difficult to convince someone to do a thing that they would reject as evil. I can understand how a person could be convinced they are an integral part of the LGBTQ+ community. I understand it is possible that I could, under extreme circumstance beyond my control, become a participant in the LGBTQ+ community. I have posted before that I am not certain that we have agency during our mortal experience. The reason I post this is because I believe it is very possible that in the life after this experience – it is likely that we will discover many that we thought are undeserving of forgiveness to end up exalted and many we thought in this life to be noble and great – turn out to be a disappointment. I believe this is in part the reason we should not judge (especially condemn) those we encounter in this life. Humans are an intelligent species capable of learning. Any cognitive behavior is capable of definition and modification through a process of learning. It is true that some are more susceptible than others to cognitive behavior modification. It is also true that some are more susceptible to habitual or addictive behaviors. I personally believe that nothing in this universe happens without incentive. I do not believe any human will pursue any behavior without encouragement or what many call peer or associated support. I believe that the kingdoms of glory are in essence safe spaces for various behaviors individuals prefer. When I say safe space – this is a space where they are safe from scrutiny. It is logical to me that the safe space for adultery is among those whose behavior is conducive to adultery. The safe space for those who are chased is among those whose behavior is chased. I am an individual that loves logic and reason. I cannot connect to any logic within the LGBTQ+ community. It is not that a person within such a community is incapable of logic (doing a math problem) – just that the choice to be one or all of LGBTQ+, to me is completely illogical. As long as I am left to think for myself – I will choose the discipline, difficulty and effort to be heterosexual and honor the preservation of life and hold the highest honor for those that sacrifice that others can be born and exist. The Traveler

I have come to the conclusion that people have different personality types. Even within a particular type there can be a spectrum of variance. I think this is one of many reasons that there are communication problems. I looks to me that @Carborendum kinds of falls in a similar personality type that I do. It is a type that is logical –we make really good engineers and really bad customer relationship (sales) people. I am very lucky because I married the polar opposite personality type that is able to cover for most of my relationship blunders. I will give an example: I ask a new member of our Elder’s quorum to lead the discussion topic recently. After priesthood I was with my wife and the good brother’s wife joined him. Since we were all close, she turned to me and asked how her husband did with the lesson. I responded very truthfully and said that he did much better than I expected. My wife stepped in and said that my response is as high of a complement as I ever give – that it must have been really good. Later she explained to me that most people would take my complement negatively – that I would assume that they would do terrible. I should just say he did a good job. I attempted to explain that I expected a typical good job but he had done better. She reminded me that it was not what I said. In general, I think those of us that have the gift of logic and love using it to express what we think is true can never quite say the right thing to the types that “follow their heart” and live off their feelings. Attempts to connect on our level or theirs is just not going to happen very often – never without some spiritual help from above. The Traveler

You have touched on so many things in this relatively short post. Rather than attempt to bring all points together – I will start with a few and if there is possible discussion interest expand this thread. To begin, I do not intend to describe what anyone else or any other religion believes or teaches because I do not want to speak for anyone but myself. I will make some references in general with no specifics intended. My generalizations could include some LDS. Many seem to believe that scripture is a direct link to the divine and inviolate truth containing all the light, truth, wisdom and guidance needed for all of mankind. I will not go into all the flaws I believe this brings only to quote the actual narrow focus of scripture as testified in scripture. John 5:39 But there is another problem. Scripture has not unified religious thinking but as we learn from history, the more individuals study scripture the more disagreement there is in its message. Printing of the scriptures and literacy of the world had produced a divergence and not a consensus. For the most part, once someone has developed and interpretation of a specific scripture the less open, they seem to become to possible deeper spiritual meanings. I believe this is the problem that arises from tradition verses divinely sent prophets (or even divinely inspired) – as exemplified by the tension between Jesus and the Pharisees and Scribes. My last point for this particular post deals with the concept that G-d is the G-d of all humanity – thus there are elements of divine law in every nation, kindred, tongue and people. At the same time there is the deceiver (Satan) that corrupts all truth and creates doubt, chaos and confusion. So that over time, without constant update, not just by inspiration but a constant singular living source to divine truths as a continuing purifying perfect unification to counter the constant threat of corruption. Thus, even though there are threads of truth woven into every society – once broken off from the living vine of Christ – all that not directly connected to Christ become divergent – even if by some very small difference. The Traveler

@mikbone and of course others: I think that both questions are answered with the same thought. I will offer my thought or take on Jesus Christ. Some comes from my understanding of scripture. I believe Jesus was the first born. This does not necessarily mean the chronologically first born but the highest, best or most intelligent. Intelligence is tightly coupled to the light of truth. I believe the light of truth is also called the spirit of Christ which means that Jesus was and is the most qualified. As an engineer I understand the principle of physical design tolerances. That when things are coupled it takes place within the tolerance parameters. There is a problem when multiple things are coupled because tolerances do not tend to cancel out but rather add up. I think this is what B H Roberts was most likely referring to that Jesus was more intelligent than them all. I do not think that if Jesus was playing basketball that by himself, he would be better than a team. I am of the mind that because Jesus had the best connection to light and truth that in turn, he took more upon himself. He was most willing of all to sacrifice and suffer for the benefit of others. There was among the children of G-d another seemingly highly intelligent individual. Perhaps it was initially only the Father that realized Jesus was more intelligent and willing to sacrifice and suffer for others – and this is why the Father chose Jesus over Lucifer to be the Messiah of mankind. As a side note: I find it interesting and perhaps revealing that in all cases given us in scripture when two brothers both sought the birthright that it always went to the younger and more spiritual of the two. Because of this and because Lucifer was also called the son of the morning – I speculate that Lucifer was the older brother to Jesus. Jesus was chosen – I believe because of all G-d’s children he is the closest to the spirit of Christ – both as an intelligent being (prior to what the scriptures call the beginning) and as a willingness to condescend, sacrifice and suffer for the benefit of others. The Traveler

A few side notes about brother Porter. He was in attendance on April 6, 1830, when the Church was organized. He was 17 at the time. I believe he was Joseph’s childhood best friend and likely knew more about the first vision and many other such things than many others (even family) that knew Joseph. Porter was also a loner, classical antisocial and not a religious scholar or interested in doctrine or church positions and if Joseph was a fraud – Porter not only knew him very well, but he would have exposed him. Porter was very dedicated to Joseph and later to Brigham. My great grandfather was a person that Porter noticed as a boy coming across the planes to Utah. Porter sort of took the boy under his wing and trained him to become a US Marshal (among other things). On occasions they worked together though Porter never had a partner. There were stories about Porter passed down through our family. My first son was named after Porter and great granddad. Not necessarily a good idea – sometimes kids will take up some of the personalities of their name. The Traveler

I was raised by very strict parents. However, my father would often say, “Anything you see me do is okay for you to do. If it is something that I do not do – you will be much better off avoiding it. And if I catch you – you will automatically be in trouble.” My wife was raised with the attitude – do what I say and not what I do. It took her a while to adjust but she came around and is a wonderful example. As a side note – my parents claimed that of all their kids – I was the most difficult. My father was an accomplished artist – I have no precognitive visual capabilities and my main goal as a kid was to launch something into outer space. We all have different skills (spiritual gifts). I take this to mean that even though we can use others as example for certain things – we will never be what someone else is or intended to be – we best learn to navigate and master our own life and destiny (that I believe is the intent of agency). The Traveler

I saw a study a while back that said that coffee is not a problem in moderation – with the one exception of developing the habit of not starting your day without the caffeine stimulation first thing when they wake up. I do not know if there is anything to it – but in my younger days, I used to compete in cycling and skiing. Both sports relied heavily on the use of caffeine for performance – especially endurance. I never used caffeine and only once placed (in each sport). But all the guys I used to compete against are no longer able to endure a ride or a day skiing. I do admit that it is mostly due to pain (mostly back pain and arthritis). I do not know what the connection is but I suspect that it is more about sugar and alcohol than caffeine. The Traveler

I have long been a fan of Star Trek. I know we call this stuff science fiction and yet it seems that there is lots of fiction and very little if any science. The idea of exploring space is something I have always dreamed about. The strange new lifeforms (that have become basically messed up humans in Halloween costumes and the boldly going where no man has gone before (at least intelligent humans) seem to be going the normal direction of humans with an IQ that is not quite room temperature (Fahrenheit system). Am I outgrowing this stuff? I have been watching the latest Star Trek Discovery series. Is it me or Disney? I get the impression that the plot is being written as a sophomore high school English project for students with learning disabilities. It is like the Star Ship gets in trouble with the worse villains in the galaxy and then the captain says to the crew, “Everybody close your eyes, cross your fingers and repeat 3 times in your mind – I believe in elves”. Then somehow it works, and they get out of another impossible situation. Interwoven into the rest of the plot is every other possible love relationship, with the exception of traditional marriage and family. Oh, wait there are some traditional families in the plot with some character that is the only survivor of his interplanetary species from some galactic tragedy or war. Is anybody finding any entertainment value in this stuff that surpasses what used to be 3rd grade level when I was a kid? I admit that back then we had pitiful special effects, but it seems that now all that exists in visual entertainment is the special effects. The Traveler

Not sure - that is all Greak to me. The Traveler

This is very stupid – everybody knows you speak German to your dog. I also think you are better off arguing with men in Greak. The Traveler

Maybe most people could cut the 20%+ (with all considered - perhaps even much more) - It would likely be difficult for me because I am addicted to using my brain and a lot of the extra calories, I use up skiing and cycling. 😇 The Traveler

If you want to use English where you go in the next life after you die – I sure you will be accommodated. I can imagine that in Hell that the cooks are British, the police are French, they use imperial measurements and quite likely they speak English. 😉 The Traveler