Traveler
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Posts posted by Traveler
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17 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:
We will have to agree to disagree on this one.
In my time over on the opposite side of the World my initial impression was somewhat different than yours. Russia, though corrupt and having different ideas on morality had a pretty strong stance against LGBTQ+ rights and individuality. Ukraine on the otherhand was moving further and further towards full agreement with Western morality. THIS was seen as a great danger by many in Russia and that sphere of the world. It was through Ukraine that many felt this influence on Russia and Russian culture was moving. The idea that Ukraine would get even closer to the West and thus the influence of Western Culture influences into Russia becoming stronger could actually be seen similarly to a Nazi type infiltration of Russia aka WW2 (during which you could see a similar pattern, even to the point that at first Russia wasn't actually opposed to Germany and cooperated with the Nazi's...until it became apparent it was to Russia's detriment). [Edit: It wasn't a perfect analogy, but from the viewpoint of Russia I could actually see how they could see parallels and similarities. Hence, when they used the term Nazi's, they weren't meaning the genocide of Jews Nazi's, but that cultural influence and destruction of Russian people and culture type Nazi ideas. Thus, when you understand that viewpoint, why they referred to Ukraine as Nazi and such makes perfect sense...as in that sense it was the entire cultural and social transformation that was occurring in Ukraine and thus eliminating the Russian culture and ideas that they were referring to. This is one of the big things to go to war against the Nazi's in WW2...it wasn't about the Jews, it was about the preservation of Russia and the Russian culture].
However, for all of Carlson's faults...he did clarify one thing with Putin. The idea above and your idea have NOTHING to do with WHY they want Ukraine. It boils down that Putin (and others) feel that Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union and thus belongs to Russia...no matter what they citizens of Ukraine say, think, or feel. Thus, as Putin so adeptly pointed out in his 30 minute spiel of why Ukraine is Russian Territory and belongs to Russia, it seems the truth is merely that Russia invaded Ukraine because Putin and others feel it is wrong for it to be separate from Russia and they want it back.
Thanks Tucker.
Thank you for responding. I believe this is a most serious matter and needs a lot of discussion. A few years ago, my wife and I spend some time in Saint Petersburg, Russia. We had a guide that took us to several off the tourist grid places where we encountered a cross section of Russian citizens. I was quite surprised to discover that Putin has more popularity and support in Russia than any President in the USA has had for decades among citizens here. I realize this was hardly scientific but the feed back that I had was that the citizens enjoyed more freedoms and economic benefits than any of them ever realized in their lifetime. Included in their freedoms was attending religious institutions of their choice and being able to walk (or jog – including young ladies) in public places (or ride public transportation) without fear of being molested or robed. In general, it was my impression that Russians attribute their improved status (a significant rise in their middle class) to policies instituted by Putin.
I am not a fan of Putin – especially politically or of his methods and I have no desire to live in Russia. But the people there have it better than they ever have.
According to my recent research – up until 2014 Russia either controlled Ukraine or relied on them (politically and economically) as a trusted ally. Ukraine was an important economic and political partner to Russia. At the time the President of Ukraine was a guy named Yanukovych that was most famous for corruption. Under pressure from Russia, Yanukovych backed off from increasing trade with the EU. As I stated earlier – and this can be verified by a Google search. A movement started to remove Yanukovych from power because of his corruption. The most violent element of the revolution was a Nazi movement (not my interpretation) that received monies from the USA and NATO. My research indicates that Senator John McCain was involved in the legislation to obtain the monies to finance the Nazis and the Ukraine conflict.
Our involvement (USA) can easily be justified as means to curtail Russian influence and end a very corrupt regime. However, there is little indication that the rampant corruption of Ukraine was in any way hampered – but Ukraine as a nation made moves towards Western (EU and USA). Prior to the Russian invasion there are rumors that Zelenskyy’s administration did not deal kindly with opposition (including certain religious groups).
It is my understanding that the mane means of Russian financing is through their petroleum industry and exports. It appears to me that the current policy in the USA that governs the USA petroleum industry gives strong advantage economically to Russia (despite all other so-called sanctions). Thus, it looks to me like the USA, either indirectly or directly is financing both side in the current Russia Ukraine conflict with increased petroleum costs.
The Traveler
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Having spent some time trying to talk with some liberal friends – I have concluded that it is unlikely that a contest between Trump and Biden will in anyway calm the troubled waters brewing politically in this country. If anything, I believe it will boil over. I doubt that we will reach November without open violence and an impossible political divide. I do not think either party has the means or desire to deal with the opposition that is building.
Though I believe the Democrats to be the more wicked of the two; I am also convinced that the Republicans are more the buffoons that are clueless and unprepared. I wonder if the stupidity of the Republicans is somewhat by the design of their leadership. At this point, I cannot say I trust any political process. My hope is in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I had hope of the religious community of America coming together but since that community still cannot (as a whole) accepts us as Christians – I am very concerned for how much longer G-d will protect this government. For now, I will support anyone or anything that can delay what seems to me to be inevitable. I believe the Democrats will not only win but will win by much more than the Republicans (and other conservatives) can possibly imagine.
The Traveler
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18 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:
I inherited a bunch of religious books from my grandpa. One of them was published in the 1930's (I think), from the church's printing press in Beaver Utah, titled something like "The succession of Joseph II". I briefly thumbed through it, it was basically an in-depth response to a bunch of claims made that Joseph's child should be Joseph's successor after his martyrdom. I put it with the other 2-3 dozen books in a box in my basement.
Years later, I was in Yahoo chat arguing religion with an RLDS person about who was right and who was wrong. I ran and got the 70 year old book. He proceeded to make a series of claims, pretty much verbatim to the claims refuted by my book, pretty much in the exact order my book was written. I immediately was able to counter each point he made, clearly and convincingly, by citing various elements of our shared history. Poor dude was forced to say something like "well, I don't know as much as I should about it, but I'm still sure you Brigahmites are the wrong ones."
Imagine fighting a battle, over and over again, that was pretty conclusively lost 70 years ago.
Just a note. With all the divisions within the Community of Christ it has been a surprise to me that few of those leaving have joined with us. And then even the few – it seems to have been the next generation to find itself joining with us. Perhaps it is the past bitterness. The individual I met with seemed to have a defeated presents – I would think somewhat like Moroni experiencing the end of the Nephits. I did feel that he was a good person expressing a sincere sorrow. Typical to my problems with little compassion I did tell him he has a home with us. His grace precedes mine with his thank you.
The Traveler
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22 hours ago, Vort said:
I dislike certain tags that oversimplify and distort matters, such as the "Two-Cumorah Theory". Rather than state the matter as "there were two or perhaps more hills called Cumorah", which, though possible, sounds clearly like a stretch (or a tautology—"King Lear was not written by William Shakespeare, but by another playwright of the same name"), a better statement would be, "Perhaps the very name 'Hill Cumorah' simply means the hill chosen to house records." If we assume that records were always hidden somewhere on a hill so that (1) they would be marked by an easily recognizable landmark and (2) they would shed rainfall, it's easy to see that such a hill might become generally known as "Records Hill". Those concerned with record-keeping would quickly learn to look for the Records Hill in an area. If "Cumorah" denotes written records or a storage place for them, then this identification makes perfect sense.
Of course, it's still an unsupported assertion, really just speculation. But it certainly has great explanatory value for those who believe the literal truth of the Book of Mormon and the narrative that it provides, and it doesn't immediately raise suspicion and mockery like "Two-Cumorah Theory" does.
It is not uncommon to give familiar names to places. I know of a few cities called Paris, London, Main, Portland and Bountiful just to name a few. I have given up attempting to determine the land of the Book of Mormon – thought I have thought to have figured it out a few times, only to realize problems with the narrative within the Book of Mormon. I have concluded that there are a number of places that Jesus most likely visited in the Americas – as well as several other places in this world. I believe that there is sufficient evidence to convince me of visitations to many places other than the Americas (including in India, Persia and Northern Japan). As a side note – does anyone know why Japan has a flag denoting the land of the rising sun?
The Traveler
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17 hours ago, mikbone said:
I bet we purchase some property in Independence Missouri next. Likely within 5 years.
And there we will build a Temple to the Lord.
The Church is already the single largest owner of property in Missouri. There are two temples in Missouri. One in St Louis and one in Kansas City. There are several temples (24 – mentioned in your link) that will be built in Independence. My personal theory is that none of this will be built by the Latter-day Saints but will be either returned or constructed by the Saints of Enoch when they return as prophesied. I speculate this will be at the same time that Melchizedek returns with his Saints to restore the temple to what is now Jerusalem.
The Traveler
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58 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:
I would like it to become our official version.
It was never completed.
The Traveler
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Just a little bit of history – as I have experienced. In my college years I, with a few return missionary friends, embarked or a Church history vacation one summer. Our encounter with our religious LDS neighbors was bitter and disappointing and left a very bad taste in my mouth. In my youth, I blamed everything on who we called the Reorganites. Over the years this bitter relationship has softened.
One of the doctrines that has sustained some bitterness has been our stand on the priesthood being exclusively for men. The Community of Christ currently has women apostles. There was some bitterness over blacks and the priesthood. Not so much concerning the blacks and the priesthood but the Community of Christ suffered a great division over women and the priesthood. They have never been solvent economically since that division.
The LDS Church has financed the Community of Christ to maintain our common interest in historical properties. It was never sustainable – especially for the Community of Christ.
A few years ago, my wife and I (with some local friends) again made a trip through Church History. My personal encounter with the Community of Christ was like meeting with beloved long separated family members. I spent a day with one of their general authorities (president of the 70’s). I was privileged to go with him through their private vault of artifacts accumulated form the beginning and dating back to the time we were not separated. With their new focus on “The Community of Christ”, he tearfully confessed to me that they did not have the resources to maintain the artifacts of history. It was not just the finances but the human resources as well. We openly discussed the possibility of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints carrying this baton to the finish line when the Messiah comes.
The bitterness between our religious institutions seems to be the one factor no longer a concern. I am grateful that our brethren in Christ have carried this burden so well and nobly for so long. I am grateful that the properties will now be restored to what they need and ought to be – a treasure for the Saints to enjoy during the millennial reign.
The Traveler
- NeuroTypical and MrShorty
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This thread is to highlight what posters are learning from their current study of the Book of Mormon.
I will begin this with 1Nephi 5:16. Here Lehi learns that both he and Laban are direct decedents of Joseph. Thus, Laban inherited from his father the right to “keep” the records. As a direct descendent of Joseph Lehi was next in line to be a keeper of the convent – Nephi becomes the first son (most noble) and therefore the keeper of the covenant which explains why Nephi was instructed to behead Laban and take possession of the brass plates. This fulfills the prophesy that a remnant (righteous branch) of the house of Joseph will be broken off (See 2Nephi 3:5). The rest of chapter 3 prophesies that all this will commence the great work (from those that receive the Book of Mormon) in the last days to prepare for the Messiah.
I understood that the Nephits carried the covenant of Joseph until their fall, but I never saw the symbolism of the beheading of Laban like unto the fall of the Nephits and the transfer of the covenant to Nephi symbolic to the transfer of the covenant to Joseph Smith and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
The Traveler
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There are two things that come to my mind. The first is that it is possible that there are individuals alive today that know where artifacts associated with the Book of Mormon are. They may even have access to them. However, if such is the case that knowledge is as carefully guarded as the artifacts themselves.
The second I would relate to a spiritual manifestation I received as a youth concerning the divine origin of the Book of Mormon. For much of my life I have thought that experience to be sufficient testimony. More and more I am realizing that this sacred work (marvelous work and a wonder) is not an end in and of itself. That it is necessary to study and ponder the Book of Mormon to be spiritually ready for things happening currently in our day. Study and ponder does not mean to read and read hundreds of times.
Our prophets have testified on many occasions that we need to (as individuals) carefully study and ponder the revelations and prophesies in the Book of Mormon – including the inclusions in the Book of Mormon from the great prophet Isaiah. Though there are many good people with good intensions is all the religions I have encountered – there is nothing on earth like or comparable to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. No other society or individuals have greater access to divine purpose and calling than the Latter-day Saints. Key to our calling and mission as Saints in preparing for the coming Messiah is the Book of Mormon. We ought to and must become spiritual experts in the great secrets and revelations contained in the Book of Mormon as well as all our standard works and words spoken by our prophets. But the Book of Mormon is paramount.
This year under the instructions of “Follow Me”, all the saints worldwide are encouraged to study, ponder and openly discuss with one another what we are gleaning in our study. In all honesty I do not believe that speculations of where artifacts are currently located is contributing to anything useful.
The Traveler
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After listening to what Putin had to say – I thought to look a little deeper into things. Of great concern to me was the Civil conflict (note that I did not call it the Civil War) In Ukraine in 2014. It looks that the then president of Ukraine was quite corrupt. He was cited as being a puppet of Putin, but he did not always go along with Moscow. Seems he liked some things about the West. However, he was not a good friend to the West. It seems to me that Ukraine was both politically corrupt and as in who should hold the reins of government as the USA currently is.
It also looks like the West, primarily influenced by the USA gave strong support (lots of $$$ and perhaps arms) to the Nazi National Socialists (self-proclaimed Nazi, white supremacist) that were the most violent sector in the 2014 conflict. For many reasons this did not go well with Russia that took the most deaths in WWII at the hand of the Nazi Party in Germany.
Since the civil conflict things have not been settled in Ukraine. It would be hard to say with conviction that Ukraine is a democracy. In addition, Ukraine is not known for dealing well with its own internal corruption. And whatever efforts were made internally to deal with corruption have a direct link to Biden family corruption and direct link to actions taken by President Biden – then vice President – to keep his son on the payroll for the corruption being investigated.
NATO has not helped much with the problem with Ukraine in that nearly every treaty that NATO (USA) has made, has been deliberately and openly broken with Russia.
The conclusion that I have come to is that Putin has as much right to violently be involved in the overthrow of the government of Ukraine as the USA and NATO does. Sadly, there are innocent Ukrainian citizens (especially women and children – the actual genetic kind) caught in the middle of this and not all of them support the current president of Ukraine. Most importantly – I am not pleased with our news service – including Fox News – for coverage of the whole matter. I honestly believe this current bloodshed could have been easily prevented – it seems to me that this current war is the result of either carful evil planning within our own government or possibly incredibly stupid policies from both political parties for at least a few decades. I do not know where to put my trust.
The Traveler
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28 minutes ago, Vort said:
When Sotomayor and Jackson both join the majority in a unanimous decision, you know you're an idiot for your illegal actions. What an unmitigated failure for Colorado. What a rebuke to the orchestrating Democrats and other leftists. What a deep embarrassment to any sentient American who supported such a farcical move.
Even the Democratic appointed justices agree that the Democratic Party is more of a threat to Democracy than the Republican Party when it comes to properly interpreting the law. This should be of great concern for those hard core members of the Democratic Party that cannot even consider voting republican – let alone going to lunch are being a friend to a MAGA Republican. But not to go overboard with embarrassment; stanch Republicans are seldom embarrassed when they politically come down hard of the wrong side of good sense and have trouble realizing that the USA really is intended to stand for the UNITED States of America.
The Traveler
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I have been pondering this thread and decided to post some more thought about spiritual influences. I avoided using the term visitations because I believe the connotation of the word visitation is misleading. I can only speak of my own experiences – realizing that there are differing spiritual gifts (Moroni 10) – it is possible to some do not recognize ministering of spirits.
There are two distinct kinds of spirit influences. One being the influence of light and the other that of darkness. I believe it is extremely easy to decipher certain dark spirit influences of anger. Some may say “you make me angry” but I strongly believe anger only comes through the ministering of a dark spirit. I also believe that such influences are limited and that we as individuals must give ourselves over to anger before anger can be realized. We cannot be forced to be angry – only tempted, influenced or coerced.
I believe in the subtle influences of spirit. Sometimes listed as whisperings. For me such influences come as distinct thoughts. I have learned to identify thoughts that are uniquely my own and thought beyond my understanding and abilities. Jesus talked of eyes that cannot see and ears that cannot hear. I believe he was spinking of spiritual influences and ministering. It is my experience that the subtle influences of a spirit of light are most difficult to recognize if someone is not loyal to their covenants. It is also my experience that anger is a unmistakable indication that someone is being influenced by a dark spirit. As a side note there is a poster on the forum ( @prisonchaplain ) that I have never seen influenced to anger. This is a strong witness to me of his devotion to be faithful to his promises and covenants to G-d.
In the Book of Mormon, the brother of Jared, because of his faith, saw the finger of G-d during an occasion of spirit influence. This indicates to me that visual encounters are rare compared to strong spirits of light ministering. Preceding his first vision, young Joseph Smith encountered a powerful influence of a dark spirit the bound him and caused great fear. Yet, Joseph did not see what was binding him.
My point is that we can be visited by spirits, both spirits of light as well as darkness and not see or hear anything with our physical eyes and ears. I do not think I can even count the times that I have felt the influence of a spiritual being in my presents, but only twice have I seen and heard anything with my physical eyes and ears. One such occasion was while I was in the Celestial room of a temple during the dedication of that temple.
Many of us are worried about the influences of darkness in the world around and about us. My main purpose for this thread is to raise the awareness that there are more and greater influences of light on the side of those that see light during these last days before the return of the Messiah. If this is hard or difficult for anyone reading in that you are not experiencing comfort – I would suggest you recommit yourself (through behavior) to covenants of righteousness.
The Traveler
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I attended Roots Tech here in Salt Lake City and came away quite inspired. I have attended Roots Tech several times. Jimmer (BYU basketball star) was there, and I had a chance to chat with him and his wife. But that was not what inspired me.
The main purpose of Roots Tech is to inspire making connection to our ancestral roots and providing records for our posterity. There are some things I do not talk much about. With the emphasis on ancestral roots and posterity I thought to open a discussion about angles. I have experienced the influence of angles. I feel somewhat restrained and would point out that it is not uncommon that such visits are for the purposes of correction rather than congratulations. My experiences are mostly centered on warnings.
I am the name’s sake of my great grandfather that died shortly before I was born. There were a number of times I encountered the assistance of a guardian angel. On one particular occasion I inquired who it was. It was my great grandfather who’s name I carry. That particular occasion was the last time I encountered him. A few years later I encountered my brother that was lost to an accident a couple of months after completing his church mission.
There are strong connections to families. As I understand, the influence of our family members in our lives that have proceeded us is quite common despite the possibility that their influence is or may be often unrealized – including not realizing that many such influences are family relatives. Sometimes our prayers are answered through various family relationships.
So I will stand as a witness that we do live in an age of angles. I have often wondered if there are occasions where important encounters are with angles that we do not know other than a stranger we encounter during a time of need. I am inclined to believe that such encounters are not limited to member of the LDS Church.
The Traveler
- laronius and JohnsonJones
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As I understand a conspiracy requires the basis of two elements of group intent – in essence, intent derived by two or more individuals. The first is an element of secrecy. The second is the element of unlawfulness or harmfulness. Both of these elements ought to be clear and without ambiguity. Keeping something secret does not require that the secret be directly hidden. Secret, in my opinion, includes lying or not divulging the entire truth of a matter. There is another element of misdirection that has many possibilities including gas lighting efforts to highlight or divert attention to something else. This element of misdirection is very popular in religious and political conspiracies.
The second part of unlawfulness or harmfulness, though seemingly easy to define can become clouded. Especially attempting to determine what is harmful. When I was working for the Defense Department, I encountered a lot of classified information that seemed to have no other purpose beyond keeping the citizens in the dark about what was really going on. One could easily argue that no harm was intended and too much information would be confusing. Often when an error is discovered or committed by accident there is often and effort to correct or cover up the error to prevent unintended consequences. Very often the effort to coverup or misdirect is more harmfull than the initial action or intent.
Perhaps it is possible that conspiracies are created to diminish the unlawfulness or harmfulness or to focus or channel minimize what one thinks is harmful.
There have been some on this thread that use the notion or term denoting conspiracy theories. I am inclined to think that especially in religious and political circles – denoting something as a conspiracy theory is an odd characteristic in that without proof of what one is claiming to be theory (fantasy) without proof – the logic of label without proof is no different from what is being criticized.
There is one last problem concerning what is proof verses evidence and who is allowed to stack the deck of proof and evidence. I do believe that under the law – individuals should be considered innocent until proven guilty. However, when it comes to any group keeping secrets – I believe that it is best to assume guilty (harmful intent) until innocence is proven or demonstrated.
The Traveler
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On 2/27/2024 at 2:00 PM, prisonchaplain said:
Those who succeed in walking in holiness and offer lives and voices that praise Jesus--all while being cautious about finding fault--such folk are likely to bring many along on their coat tails.
I understand that many are striving to do good things and I do not want to criticize any efforts, but the truth is that the only true and living coat tails capable of bringing soles (even their own) into heaven are those of Jesus Christ.
The Traveler
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I will add what I have come to believe to this thread – for what it is worth. I believe that the logic for one true and living church is no different from the logic used for the doctrine that there is only one true and living G-d.
There are, in my mind, many misconceptions both in attempts to explain what is true and living as there is in understanding what is and what divergent thinkers say on the subject. Here is my effort. If there is a true a living G-d – that being is the supreme Suzerain of law and order, especially the law and order of the kingdom over which that being resides. Note that the term “Kingdom” is not my term, but the term used in scripture to describe that which G-d defines as his standard for his realm.
I understand that we are flawed beings and therefore have flawed understanding of things. Especially things pertaining to G-d and his kingdom. It is my understanding that because we are flawed beings what happens between birth and death of any individual is not sufficient to understand or prepare for that which is eternal. This is a primary reason why I understand the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and temple work and worship to be the only true and living church on the earth. It is the only church doing work to redeem the dead and seal on earth that which will be sealed in Heaven. It is also the only church I have encountered that has a good grasp on why there must be a pre-earth life existence as there needs to be post-earth live existence to prepare for eternity (though some come somewhat close).
There is one other principle in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that I believe demonstrates why it is the only true and living expression of the true and living G-d on this earth and realm of fallen beings but that is another discussion that ties into this principle that I have already presented. Such that if one is doubtful of what has been described thus far – there is no logic to continue.
The Traveler
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Quote
I am quite sure that our prophet ministers (including general authorities, area authorities, stake authorities, ward authorities, family authorities and personal authority) will receive all the needed revelation for the obedient covenant Saints in order to them to prepare and perform all the necessary and needed functions to insure all is prepared and ready when the Messiah returns.
It is my personal belief that independent thinking individuals are less important than families and communities working together.
The Traveler
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18 minutes ago, Maytoday said:
No problem for the delay:)
Well in my opinion its not, because it didn't fail. Its essentially his plan which i can explain if you'd like.
We then agree that there was no failure in the plan. The all the events and outcome was exactly what G-d desired and intended – not the slightest variation from what was needed and had to be. I would like to hear your version.
The Traveler
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On 2/3/2024 at 6:30 AM, Carborendum said:
Any bets on whether Dems will TRY to suspend elections this year? Perhaps we're building up a backlog of wars to the level we have not seen since Korea and Vietnam?
"We can't waste our time with pesky little things like elections when we're fighting for our lives."
Just wondering. We'll see.
If I were to bet on the election – I would bet that the Democrats out smart the Republicans in the coming election – especially if the Republicans elect Trump. The argument that the world will end unless our party wins – always works much better for the Democrats (liberals) than it does for Republicans (conservatives).
The Traveler
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There has been a discussion about the military that I feel I should add to. I believe my opinion is much in line with captain Moroni. That the military of a free people has a basis of liberty and reflects the attitude of its citizens. I believe to be free a person must, out of responsibility and obligation – be prepared (out of strong desire to be free) to serve in the military.
I believe the most effective and dangerous military is made up of free individuals that love their freedom more than their life (just like the song). Free people do not ever leave such things to others.
I do not believe in the draft or a voluntary (mercenary) for the military. I believe military service is mandatory to freedom – that any desire to not serve is because love of liberty and country are missing from such citizens. I believe we have raised a generation of privilege selfish individual’s incapable of preserving liberty and freedom. I do not know how this happened – not even my children nor grandchildren desire to preserve freedom through military service. Even as I talk to the youth in the church – I see no propensity towards serving in the military with purpose. It is not worth their effort. Not for pay, going to college without debt or any other compensation – we have a generation that does not believe (with very few exceptions). Perhaps they have come to the conclusion that the government (both officials and citizens) care less about freedoms and liberty than they do???
The Traveler
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On 1/30/2024 at 3:44 PM, Maytoday said:
Not really sure what this means...
and as for this:
I technically understand what these words mean but I'm having trouble putting them together in my head so I will mull over this until I can figure it out.
Sorry for the delay. As I engage with Traditional Christians the conundrum concerning G-d that I encounter is that evil (Satan) outsmarts G-d and causes G-d to reconsider all his works (creation highlighted with the creation of man) and create a plan B. This especially arises in the interpretations of the symbolisms of the Eden epoch. That Adam and Eve were tempted by the serpent, rebelled against G-d and were forced from Eden and for this crime mankind became fallen. The conundrum is that G-d and his creation plan failed despite his brilliant intelligence, ability to know the future, His love, compassion and mercy.
I believe that all that transpired was according to G-d plan and that what resulted was exactly and preciously what G-d desired, wanted and intended to happen. In essence that G-d, because of his brilliant intelligence, love, compassion and mercy – wanted and intended that man (Adam, Eve and all mankind) obtain the knowledge of Good and Evil. That such knowledge was intended and why G-d created man – to have knowledge of Good and Evil the same as He did. There was no plan B. Eden and the fall was His plan from the beginning stated in the opening revelation of Genesis. It was evil and Satan that was outsmarted and forced into a plan B – Which will likewise fail.
It is evil and Satan that should not be trusted. The purpose and design of evil will always fail in the light of G-d and his goodness – that never fails, is never surprised nor outsmarted – Ever!!! We can trust G-d’s plan because it has unfolded exactly as G-d designed it to and exactly as He wanted it to. There is no conundrum concerning G-d and never has been – only that Satan attempts to deceive – corrupting the truth and confuse the notion that G-d separates that which is light from that which is darkness. That what was begun in the beginning is ended in the what revelation calls the final judgement.
The Traveler
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1 hour ago, Maytoday said:
I don't understand this. Are our character traits(uniqueness), based on our will? I thought will was like, the amount of self control to resist temptation and such. I feel like we have different definitions of will which is causing confusion. What does will mean to you?
To answer the question a best as I understand. In this mortal existence we have a physical body, but it only belongs to us in this mortal state. We get our physical body through a process that is completed at our birth - we lose it when we die. I believe there is something else that defines us – our spirit or ghost. We do not know much about our spirit, but I believe we can have a sense of it. It would appear that G-d also has a spirit. Even scripture speaks of the spirit of G-d. It is our spirit that contains all our uniqueness and defines us. I cannot say how much of our spirit are characteristics that are learned or what has always been or existed – I suspect both. Our will is one spirit characteristic I believe to have always existed. I speculate that there are other always existed characteristics. But as the scriptures say – we see such things though a glass darkly.
QuoteThis is a fair point. But in that logic, because God knows that someone will murder yet he doesn't stop it, wouldn't that make him a bad God?
And well, since he's not a bad God, I don't know what to think of that.
I believe you are experiencing a conundrum concerning G-d. A conundrum that is ignored by most Traditional Christians (and many other religions) that Lucifer exploited to divide the kingdom of heaven that resulted in his (and those angles – a third part – that agreed with him) being exiled from the most advanced and intelligent society to exist, the kingdom of heaven. To understand this conundrum, we must turn to the scriptures and deal with the symbolism of the Eden epoch – in particular the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil – and its fruit. Also, why a Messiah (Christ) is necessary to redeem sin and not just the individual that committed the sin to meet the demands of justice necessary to resolve sin.
I will likely have difficulty posting for the next 3 weeks – so if there are delays responding – please be patient.
The Traveler
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16 hours ago, Maytoday said:
Yes writing that I realized it was flawed.
I believe the key difference in our logic is you are saying that the bad choices we make would be part of God's creation and therefore under his responsibility, bad choices would be his responsibility. I would say that evil-bad choices-were not created. Only choices, meaning it wouldn't be under his responsibility. Evil is the lack of good. Cold does not really exist, it is just the absence of heat. In the same way evil is the absence of God. Why should he be responsible for that?
We really are not that different in our beliefs. The question is where does our will come from? We both believe that our will is not a product of G-d. I will put this another way. Our individual uniqueness is a product of something G-d did not create. The question is why? I believe that our uniqueness (will) as an individual has always existed and cannot be created. In short it was something that existed before G-d’s creation and defines us after. That G-d created something for that uniqueness to act upon and become a being in the image and likeness of G-d. Of course, there is a lot more to this than what we have discussed but for the core or our discussion this is important to understand before diving deeper.
QuoteIf I know that my sister will steal my money does she not still have the choice to steal or not steal it?
I see this statement as somewhat problematic. To explain, let’s be a little more dramatic. Instead of using the example of your money let us use someone else's life. This should make the point a little clearer. - - -> If you know your sister will kill someone and you do nothing to stop that murder – you are culpable. Under our law (that I believe on this point your culpability is just) you are an accessory to the crime.
It is my belief that there is a divine solution to this – but to get there, I believe we have to understand justice and what it demands. Again thanks for allowing me to express my concerns and understanding.
QuoteSame for you. This is pretty interesting for me to hear and explore, hope I'm doing alright.
Also, sometimes when I make a quote I accidentally delete the line below and then have to requote...is there a way to add a blank line under a quote?
I can suggest that you copy the text uxing the + sign. Then you can make several blank lines in your post and put the material copied with the + anywhere you want. There may be other ways - I am not 100% sure of your question.
The Traveler
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9 hours ago, mikbone said:
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When did Jesus Christ enter into his exaltation? ...
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I believe that Jesus Christ (Jehovah) was exalted in the pre-existence (first estate). Several reasons – here are a few: The name or title of Jehovah implies exaltation as does the title “The Son” as a reference to one of three exalted entities of the G-dhead. We are also given understanding that the creation was carried out by G-d which is spoken of by John as the “Word”. Nephi gives witness of the condescension of G-d to come and walk among men to suffer even unto death to redeem mankind.
The Traveler
Likely daguerreotype (photo) of Joseph Smith discovered.
in Current Events
Posted
I am by no means an artist, but my father was, and I was schooled in the arts. There is a lot of the artist in their art. In essence, all art at its core (meaning and purpose) is a self-portrait.
The Traveler