Traveler

I believe that it is possible to both forgive and demand the full extent of justice. The Traveler

It does not matter how it is served. Revenge is a dish full of poison that kills everyone willing to serve or partake of it. The Traveler

I was in the military (army) during the Vietnam conflict. It was not a war because our congress never declared it so. I was a friend of a good LDS fellow that suffered nightmares and other problems because he shot and killed a 5 year old boy that was rigged with deadly explosives running towards him and others. We call this PTSD and he was never able to reconcile this and other experiences he had in Vietnam. Eventually he took his own life. I have known many that experienced combat. I do not know anyone that personally benefited from the experience of killing – even in a time of war. There is a terrible price of war. Even those heroes that win for country pay a price no person should experience. They are especially vulnerable to criticism. The better person the more vulnerable they are. Growing up in my generation – few had respect for those in the military. I have absolutely no respect for those that criticize anyone that has experienced orders to put their own life on the line in combat that have no military experience. There is no reason to demonize Israel or Palestine. Those caught in the rigors of war conflict should be forgiven. But when necessary – those caught in the rigors of war need to be encouraged to stop the spreading death – especially if they find any joy or elation in it. Sometimes extreme measures are necessary to stop the spreading of death (thought it may appear to be spreading death as well). Regardless no one will benefit. I am convinced that Satan loves war – especially because of how it effects the righteous. The Traveler

Thank you for your input. I consider sadness, concern, fear, worry or other such emotions as temporary and not real or realistic. Mostly, such things - after enough time - I find somewhat humorous. I find little or no logic in being controlled by things that are temporary and fleeting. It is not that I have never experienced emotions, just at this point of my life I see no logic in allowing such things to control me. Not my thoughts nor actions. Whenever I have done so – it has always brought me embarrassment. Why continue to toucher myself with such things? I see no benefit in it. The Traveler

When I was very young, I was capable of crying (weeping, mourning and other emotions) for many things that I experienced. At this point of my life, I only experience such things, not as emotions inside of me but rather when I am having a spiritual experience beyond my personal abilities. The Traveler

Could you explain? I define our mortal experience as finished when we are raised to immorality and death (both physical and spiritual) is no longer in effect. In essence the term mortal implies all that takes place to prepare and complete (resolve) a physical experience. Alma tells us the even after death there must be a time of preparation for resurrection. Resurrection that I believe completes or end the mortal experience. The Traveler

I apologize for not responding sooner. It is obvious to me that in this mortal life we have only enough information to shape general ideas. You are correct. On the surface it does appear that the ultimate responsibility for all things – good and bad – can only occur under the intelligence and direction of our Father in Heaven. It also seem obvious to me that in our little corner of this vast universe – we live under very intricately stacked circumstances. Perhaps even more so for the spiritual things over which we have no empirical means to scrutinize. I will propose that our Father in Heaven is unable to redeem the sins from the fall of his covenant children. In essence there are some things impossible for G-d because in his presents that is no allowance for sin. But I assume our Father in Heaven is intelligent enough to devise a way and means that a Plan of Salvation could occur. This is what I have been able to surmise so far. First: The fall and execution of man’s mortal experience to come to an understanding of good and evil is required to take place beyond the presents of our Father in Heaven in order that the elements of evil can be learned by experience. Second: A real experience of evil – of necessity must include the experience of Death. Both physical death and spiritual death. But this experience of death must be out of agency and choice of the individual – G-d will not force such on anyone. To do so would be an act of evil. This singular point answers for me why Lucifer’s exception turned him from a being of light to a slave of darkness. Third: The only method to make a mortal experience real and work properly two things are a must: The first thing is that an iron clad escape plan has to be in place to mitigate for all the sins. The second thing is that an element of ignorance must be so that there is an element of innocence in all such sins. In other words, as Jesus once said – those involved really do not know what they are doing. The iron clad escape plan required a Messiah (Christ) that would oversee and be in charge (responsible) for the implementation of the entire plan. They would grant agency in order to put the plan into effect, provide an environment for all to experience the plan of salvation and then fulfill every tiny bit of justice (suffering and death) to redeem all the sins of the somewhat ignorant living by faith (not pure knowledge). This is – as near as I have been able to project – the only way and means by witch I believe the covenant children of G-d our Father would be able to partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and then partake of the tree of eternal life and be exalted through the atonement (Kippur) of Christ and their repentance – all of which comes to a competition or finality when each individual comes before G-d the Father to make an accounting to insure all things were completed according to each’s agency. I welcome questions and any input by all that wish to explore why Christ and only Christ is able to redeem us and fulfill ever whit of justice. The Traveler

Your post is something I really want to pursue because I do not understand what you are saying: I seem to have a very different concept of Justice than what you seem to be implying. My understanding of justice correlates with our second Article of Faith. That everyone is punished for their own sins and not for anyone else’s transgressions. I can understand mercy to forgive someone of something that they owe but the demands of justice are such that justice can only be fulfilled by someone entangled in the responsibility. The Traveler

Thanks for your input. Just a question – do you not have emotions involved in your children? The Traveler

There may be and even ought to be better ways to convey how justice is fulfilled through the Atonement (Kippur) of Christ. The primary reason I put this before the forum is to discuss how this can be properly understood. There are no variables in that the end was known from the beginning. In my profession – testing was the most important element in achieving the intended result. It was not a matter of acceptance or rejection as much as it was a determination of what was necessary to produce exactly the intended result. The final testing, of necessity, required all elements in a real actual operation of all possibilities demonstrating preciously the capabilities of each isolatable piece as well as the entire system under all possible conditions. In addition, there was a great deal of adnominally testing that would reveal what would happen to the system with component failure. Overseeing all this testing was a hierarchical structure of cognitive engineers. The lead engineer having cognitive responsibility of the entire project. I would project that our mortal experience is the final testing – not just of the intended project but of the cognitive engineers. Perhaps a better term is that Jesus is the lead cognitive G-d responsible for implementing the Great Plan of Salvation. That Jesus is responsible for each individual. There seems to be an entanglement similar to quantum entanglement that binds us each to Christ. The binding entanglement would be the love of Christ. It is by and through Christ that we are given the power of agency. I agree that Jesus did not commit a fault or breech of duty but as the proctor of our agency – like a parent he has responsibility for us. But there are two sides to this coin – He is also the proctor of our exaltation and shares in our successes. In deed we are entangled and are one. The Traveler

Using the Eden epoch and applying what we know to responsible parenting. Let’s say that you have a friend with a garden on their property. But in the garden is a poisonous viper. Your friend knows well about the viper. He know that the viper is extremely territorial and aggressive. The viper will attack anything that moves in the garden. So, your friend allows two of his very young and inexperienced children into the garden to play because it is something they have wanted so badly to play there – and yet the children were allowed to go play without even a single word of warning about the viper. The children end up being bitten by the viper and die. But your friend is not at all culpable because they desired and choose to play in the garden. Would you drop off your kids at such a friend’s place while you went on a vacation with your wife for a couple of weeks? Or would you think twice – thinking you would want your children with someone more responsible? In case you are wondering – there is a lot more to the story. But the part I have provided illustrates the point that there is culpability (or responsibility) when someone knows in advance with is going to happen, but they allow it to happen anyway. Justice cannot allow one person to suffer for anyone else unless somehow there is some culpability. We can say that taking on the consequences of other’s actions is kind and merciful, but it cannot be argued that it is just. G-d by all we understand, is a just G-d. Right? I think from the very beginning - Christ took upon a lot of responsibility (culpability) for the sins connected to the fall of Adam and Eve. Christ intended to redeem man from the beginning. The Traveler

There is a point I think many miss – I will use the Eden epoch as an example. The question concerns if G-d has any culpability in the fall of man (Adam and Eve). There are a number of reasons for concern. First. G-d knew exactly what would happen in Eden if Satan was allowed to beguile Eve. Why did G-d knowingly allow Satan to beguile Eve? Second. If G-d knew in advance what would happen but allows it anyway why does He not share any of the blame? My point is – that G-d (Jehovah) does indeed have culpability and answered to the blame by becoming flesh and answering (paying for or redeeming) for all the sins of the fall and because of the fall. I have argued this point in the theater of religion – including Christians (and LDS). That Jesus Christ justly paid (redeemed) all of the sins connected to the fall of man. And is the only possibility for a just redemption of sins. I believe that only the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints allows this understanding. The Traveler

I find Dr William Happer rather interesting. If you are worried about CO2 in the atmosphere you might want to consider the criticism of Dr. Happer. Here is a video https://youtu.be/CA1zUW4uOSw?si=JdWQX-2E0OtQqMjv The Traveler

Thank you for your response and question. Though we use words to communicate, I realize that we do not all understand in the same manner. I do not think I suffer pain as others do. Physical pain is not a big deal to me. Though I do experience pain it does not affect me as I observe its affect on others. I have suffered some serious cycling accidents and though I experience pain I have never experienced debilitating pain. I have always felt that emotional pain is self-inflected, so I refuse to allow such. This does not mean that I am not ever disappointed or sorry – just that I do not let such define me – I see no logic or benefit in it. I have great difficulty in understanding or helping someone that is depressed. I do not believe that we can “see” light and truth and be depressed. Therefore, I do now dwell on sorrow, pain or that which is depressing – rather, I look to the light. I think @zil2 expresses some of what I think amounts to suffering. I do not think we need pain in order to suffer. I think of suffering as giving up something of perceived value for something else of greater value (hopefully for something or actual greater value). I do not think that giving up something that is worthless or valueless for something of value or worth as an act of suffering. I do believe that from the very beginning – Christ suffered. Not so much pain as things that he could have for himself that he gave up for a greater good. We could say that he exercised faith in the Father in that he gave up a pursuit of his own will for the greater good of the will of the father. Some would argue that if the net result is positive or beneficial – that is not suffering but rather an enjoyment. I would only respond by saying – and that is the logic in why we suffer for righteous sake. I see no logic in suffering for darkness or the sake of evil. The Traveler

The lesson for our priesthood next week will be based on the conference talk by Jeffery R. Holland titled “I Am He”. This is a reference that, in essence, declares that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ. In his talk Brother Holland references 3 Nephi 11:10-11 I intend to highlight the phrase, “I have suffered the will of the Father in all things from the beginning”. I believe that when the Father asked, “Who will I send”, that from the beginning Jesus volunteered to be the Christ. And that from the beginning Jesus “Suffered” to become the Christ. My understanding come from the one great argument of atheists that G-d does not exist because He allows evil – especially evil that destroys innocence. Why would a “good” G-d not just allow but create circumstance that the only result will bring such great suffering– not just because of evil but by the nature of the Universe itself. The answer to this question is also the answer to the great debate over freewill or determination and it all goes back to the beginning – referenced above. G-d is both merciful and just. Because of Christ we are given agency – and it is this agency the initiated the War In Heaven. That war is because of the injustice suffered from the bad exercises of agency of some upon others that did not exercise agency in the same manner. Christ is the “Redeemer”. Not only does he redeem our sins but also all sins of others that contributes to our suffering. In the first place He is able to forgive sin because he is merciful. Then, because He is the means of our agency and is the “creator” of the means by which we are subject to sin – He can justly suffer and redeem sin. No other being is able to be both merciful and just to forgive and redeem sin. Christ is the answer to why G-d can be merciful and just and yet allow the suffering of innocence. Christ redeems the suffering of innocence and bring both justice and mercy for sin and the suffering caused by sin. Brother Holland also references the 4th Article of Faith in his talk where we learn that paramount to the plan of G-d is “Faith in the L-rd Jesus Christ”. First that we have faith that Christ redeems sin. And yet the Book of Mormon tells us that without repentance it will be as though no redemption was made. The reason is also explained in the Book of Mormon in that we are redeemed from sin not redeemed in sin. That without repentance – we remain in sin. If we do not repent before the final judgement we remain in sin and thought Christ suffered for sin, both out of mercy and justice – that if we do not repent the spirit that beguiled sin remains in us and abides with us. So, Christ is also the answer to faith verses works. It is through faith in Christ that we are able to repent. Because of the atonement of Christ and faith in Christ that we repent and sin is overcome and no longer justly able to hold us and bring us suffering. Not just because of our sins but also redeems us from the sins of others that causes us to suffer. Note that repentance requires that we forgive the trespasses of others against us. The Traveler

To those that think the woke left is shooting themselves in the foot. You are missing the bigger picture. The best method to realize how wrong any political notion is – is to give that political movement the power to put their proclaimed agenda into law. What will be discovered is that there is a difference between the proclaimed agenda and the actual political agenda. The work of politics it to shoot themselves in the foot and then to cover it up or blame the opposition. It is my particular wish that the liberals (democrats, left wing or whatever) will vigorously oppose ever possible effort of the conservatives (republican, right wing or whatever). Strong opposition will make it difficult for those conservatives in power to enact even the most needed steps of their agenda. ---- And make it impossible to enact and all the extra or more extreme notions. The Traveler

In my youth there was great concern over a nuclear confrontation with Russia. My best friend’s family built an elaborate fallout shelter in their backyard complete with a 2-year supply of food and water and filters for breathable air. I ought to visit my childhood neighbor to see if it is still there in some form. It was rather large and would be difficult to dismantle. My father did not believe Russia was a problem. As a side note, my home was well stocked with firearms and ammunition – but then we depended on hunting for a fair share of our food. Along this line I mostly gave up hunting following my military experience and then being shot at while hunting – same year an acquaintance was shot and killed while hunting. Also, in my youth, I had the opportunity of being in the middle of two events that ended up in the news. I saw everything unfold from start to finish. In the late 50’s and early 60’s the news could not get their facts straight. After college I went to work for the Defense Department. I was given “talking points” that had nothing to do with the work I was doing that I was to tell everybody about what I was doing (including what I could put on my resume). It is my understanding that any information coming from the government or through the news organizations are carefully and deliberately filtered. There are both good and bad reasons for filtering information. I have two suggestions. First – do not believe what you hear. Rather understand that there is a bias to whatever information you have. If the bias is not completely clear – do not invest a penny in it – If the bias is certain – still take it with a grain of salt. Second – wait for the dust to clear and try to understand a trend – not and so much any particular event. My personal opinion is that white supremacy is not a problem of much concern. Those that are concerned about white supremacy are contributing to a problem and cannot be trusted for a solution. The Traveler

I have a different take on the opening of Nephi’s record. The Family of Lehi was well versed in Egyptian methods. The Book of Mormon was written not in Hebrew but in reformed Egyptian. It was also written before the Rosetta Stone had unlocked the understanding of ancient Egyptian language (written and spoken) and culture. I would assert that Nephi’s introduction is not according to Hebrew literary structures but is a classic Egyptian Colophon widely used by the well educated in the Middle East at the time of Lehi. Let’s look at Nephi’s Colophon: One: His name Two: The merits of his parents, with special attention to the learning of his father. Three: A solemn avowal (similar to Nasim’s curse) that the record is true, and the assertion, “I make it with mine own hand” (1Nephi 1:3) This is an indispensable condition of every true colophon, since the purpose of a colophon is to establish the identity of the person who wrote it down (not the identity of the ultimate author). I would also submit that there are many Egyptian literary forms sprinkled throughout the Book of Mormon along Egyptian names. And yet there are also many Hebrew literary forms also included in the Book of Mormon. In essence the Book of Mormon is a look back into the historical time of the Middle East, unparalleled by even current modern standards that where not known at the time of Joseph Smith. The Traveler

I would say something about bigotry and racism. I would take all these terms and put forth the idea that there are two very distinct levels, types or kinds of bigotry and racism. One is rooted in the fear of things (people and ideas) that are foreign, different and not well understood. At this level we are all racists and bigots. The other level is rooted in the thinking and insistence that justice cannot be served without revenge and punishment. At this level we tend to lose any sense of reason and logic. I do not think this is a matter of spectrum between the two but rather two very different things in and of themselves. And yet we do not separate the two and realize the difference. Yet we will forgive ourselves and others we love or care about and in the next breath condemn to Hell, lessor offences in those that are deemed different. It is my opinion that we ought to refrain from name calling and demonizing and address problems directly and logically. More and more I am learning that if someone cannot discuss a difficult topic or address someone that disagrees without hate and anger – then it is you (or me or whoever) that is the problem. And regardless of who or what is the problem – there is no logic in feeding the fire and making it worse. We cannot control anyone else’s hate and anger – only our own. The Traveler

Like many on this forum – I believed Carter to be one of the greatest individuals to become president. I believe his problem was to trust those in his party that put party (politics) ahead of country. Thus, the problem of his presidency was not him but those that surrounded and advised him. I believe that he was the only president of my lifetime that was faithful to the lady he chose to be his first and only wife. There are very few leaders that during difficult times can be honest with themselves as well as effective leaders (like Moroni in the days of Alma). I regret that we have no such leadership in our country currently. Our culture seems to favor rebellious bad guys (and ladies). The Traveler

Utah has the best skiing. I also love the Settle area. I loved the northwest when I served my mission and Settle was my favorite. It is true that Settle has a woke elitist attitude (among some) but the LDS members are incredible. I would live near Settle of near Ashville NC in a heartbeat but my beloved prefers desert sun shine. It would seem that this life demands sacrifices. The Traveler

I understand what you are saying, and I often act in that manner – but it makes me very nervous and concerned. The biggest concern is myself. Perhaps it is the mathematician and engineer in me – maybe a little of a mental disorder (OCD). I cannot leave an unsolved problem alone. Well, I could but I don’t. Mostly I do not like myself leaving an unsolved problem for someone else to define for me. I think I should explain more. There are very few things I have encountered that I believe have the resolved solution available. It is up to me to come up with the best possibility and move forward. This is in part how I understand the scripture that indicates we should study from the best books. And so, I gather the best information I can. I consult with those I trust and believe to be the best sources to provide background information that I can exchange ideas with. I begin to formulate ideas and theories and check out how well my thinking fits. As I formulate an opinion and resolution – I then make it a manor of prayer – sometimes adding fasting. Usually what I end up with is a best possibility and go with it. Going with it means I also want to keep an open mind – especially when or if I can encounter any alternatives. On rare occasions I am able to conclude that I have the solution to which nothing can be added. Right now I cannot think of anything so concluded. An example: I have received (more than once but one particular very powerful) manifestation that the Book of Mormon is the most divinely scripture available. The problem I continually deal with is in understanding all the light and truth that is available to me in studying and pondering the Book of Mormon. Bottom line – I cannot reconcile any fence sitting logic. I would rather study at my best and make a wrong decision than to not make a decision at all. I value freedom, liberty and the exercise of agency to ignore anything that matters. The Traveler

It is my opinion that even among Christians (disciples of Christ) there is a gross misunderstanding of mercy, justice and repentance. Perhaps the most common symbol of this gross misunderstanding is the Pagan (worldly) notion of the judgment of souls after death by the scale of Mott. Generally, the idea of the scale of Mott is that we are judged with our good deeds on one side and evil deeds on the other. If the weight of one side is greater than the other the scale will tip to that side. If it tips to the good side, then the soul receives the benefits of divine good. If the scale tips to the evil side, then the soul receives the maledictions of demonic evil. This whole idea of the scale of Mott gives rise to the concept of making it into heaven. In essence, that something (usually something divine) outside of us will determine our eternal fate. I believe that the restored truth is that we are given agency to determine completely by ourselves our own eternal circumstances. That the final judgment of soles is merely a clarification of our the exercising of our agency. We are told that all blessings are predicated on obedience to the laws that govern and define eternal blessings or maledictions. I believe that if we are to have a healthy body then we must learn to be obedient to the laws of good health. The same applies to wealth and even things like joy, happiness, liberty and so on. In reality it is this discipline of obedience. It is said that nothing of value is ever accomplished without discipline. I would agree that faith and works are tightly coupled. What I submit as that coupling is discipline. The Traveler

It depends on how one understand G-d and his works. I believe that the more we become familiar with G-d and get to know Him the more we will understand Him and His works and the more it will all make sense (logical sense) to us. Our scriptures tell us that G-d is a G-d of light and truth. That the glory of G-d is intelligence or the light of truth. We are also told that all things testify of Christ. I personally do not connect with the concepts and doctrines that G-d is unknowable and that it is impossible to know of the “mysteries” of G-d. Why do you think that knowing how something is done negates the possibility that G-d is involved? The Traveler

I do not think so – I think most of the world are fence sitters. 🤢 The Traveler