Traveler

Thanks Your pickup concerning sphere is absolute genus. The more I consider this notion the more impressed I am. A sphere adds to the dimension concept over that of a platform. This bring me back to revelations given by Joseph that was so far a head of its time. Even theories coming forward because of the James Webb telescope are trying to solve creation of the universe through thinking beyond the normal dimensions. Your post has me going back through scripture and various quantum theories and rethinking a great deal --- Thanks. Concerning the 41 days in Jerusalem there are a number of elements in history that play into this story. You may want to do some research into a possible historical character known as Prester John. If you can get Islamic references from the time of Salah Al Din. Also, there is an interesting document kept by what is called the Nestorian Christians. I surmise that Prester John was more a title than a name of an individual. The document I mention is a letter claimed to be written by the hand of Jesus. Short part of a long story – the letter is carbon dated to the time of Jesus and the parchment is from the area of Israel. The back story is that a ruler priest in Persia was converted that Jesus was the Mesiah and sent an envoy to draw his picture and get Jesus to leave Jerusalem (Israel) and come live under his protection. The picture was lost in time, but the letter (according to claim) was preserved. The Nestorian Christians supposably knew about the star from ancient text that were destroyed with a library about the same time as the library of Alexendria. I first learned about the Nestorian Christians when some fled Iran when the Shaw of Iran fell, and the current regime took over. Having met an individual (Nestorian Christian) that had fled Iran and learned their version of Christianity (especially the G-dhead) caused a paradigm shift in my thinking. I speculate that the Kings bringing gifts had connections to the Melchizedek (priestly king), had connections to revelations not in our Bible and knew the importance of the Messiah as a member of the G-dhead separate from the Father and Holy Spirit. And – they could have made the journey within the 41 days. On another note – I have speculated that the Star that appeared was a supernova about 600 light years away – that energy radiation from the supernova would have caused the ozone to turn fluorescent resulting in a night of light without shadows in the Americas. The Traveler

I thought to post in this thread concerning what many think are inconsistencies, contradictions or rejections of one idea in order to consider the possibilities of another. I will admit that this is a prejudice of mine towards many that argue religious notions --- that there often seems to be to be an attitude among those arguing religious point that to disagree (or I would say to offer other views) creates inconsistencies and contradictions that are tantamount to the rejections of the notions that they hold from their religious foundation. I would compare Einstein and his explanations in science to the explanations of prophets in religion. I realize that in so saying many would think that I hold science (empirical evidence) above religion (that which is spiritual). That would be a misunderstanding of my point of view. Einstein suggested a solution to empirical inconsistencies and contradictions. He called his suggestion a reference frame. That all truths are better understood by understanding the reference frame from which evidence is obtained. I would suggest that Moroni chapter 10 of the Book of Mormon testifies of this from a spiritual frame of reference. Moroni calls these spiritual frames of reference spiritual gifts. Moroni goes on to suggest that all individuals that exist in mortality are given unique spiritual gifts and that this is for the purpose that one spiritual gift (reference frame) not be excluded for another but that such are given so all may be uplifted – that those seeking divine light will find divine light in ever individual. I will now turn to what @Carborendum calls canonical scripture to demonstrate how one spiritual reference frame can seem contradictory or inconsistent to the other when in reality truth can be spiritually obtained from both. Lets begin with Matthew chapter 2 verses 13 and 14: Now let us consider the spiritual reference frame of Luke chapter 2. In this reference frame there is a lot concerning Jewish traditions including circumcising and making offerings in the temple of Jerusalem. Luke also make reference to individuals at the temple that received revelations concerning the baby Jesus. Let us now look at verses 38 and 39: When they left did they go to Egypt or to Nazareth? Is believing one rejecting the other? In the Book of Mormon there is a reference to a portion of the religious community that will refuse to even consider anything concerning the Book of Mormon – 2Nephi 20:3: Perhaps we can substitute for Bible the reference of canonical scripture. The concept of scripture canon is a pagan notion. Latter-day revelation has given us what we call standard works but with the caveat expressed in the 9th Article of Faith: I do not intend to give anyone the idea that I know any more than anyone else concerning Christmas and the birth of Christ. I do intend to offer as many points of reference as possible and allow those reading to decipher for themselves. I would suggest that those interested read the ancient accounts for themselves. I would suggest that it is good to be informed concerning the counsels of men that determined our scripture canon. The reference of Mary’s birth and her connection to Elizabeth and to Joseph and the siblings of Jesus I offer as a spiritual reference frame for each individual to decide for themselves. Those of ancient time that had such record text in their libraries (prior to the selections of canon) believed such texts to have originated with Saint Matthew – the same that wrote the Gospel of Mathew. Were they correct in their belief? Were those that created the canon scripture correct to leave this text out? I believe the attitude of the Pharisees concerning scripture mislead many concerning Christ. I have found understanding of the Christ by searching all that profess the Christ. True there are elements of which I am skeptical. But I have learned that it is best to listen to things from the ancient past that for whatever reason have been preserved and made known today. The Traveler

I was preparing a response for the thread “Christmas” that very much parallels what is happening in this thread. The prophet Amos make a statement about the spiritual symmetry of divine prophesy and the fulfillment of divine prophesy. I believe that this spiritual symmetry demands the role of living prophets (both ancient and current). That the utterance and actions of the ancients if fulfilled by the utterances and actions of the current. I believe that Jesus utilized this symmetry as the prime witness that he was the chosen Messiah. I believe this is also testified as a witness in Alma chapter 13 of the Book of Mormon. However, it would seem that Alma connects this prophetic symmetry with our first estate or the pre-existence. I interpret Ecclesiastes 1:9 that all things of this mortal existence was planed in our first estate as prophesy and is fulfilled by what is done in our mortality. That our G-d not only knows all such things but makes them manifest and known to those that believe in Him. The Traveler

The greatest sign to all the world that these are the last days took place nearly 200 years ago (April 6, 1830) when the kingdom of G-d was restored to the earth in its infancy. I personally believe the next greatest sign to the world was in 1978 when all males of every nation, kindred, tongue and people were cleared by divine decree to receive the priesthood of G-d and participate in all the ordinances and covenants of G-d in order to prepare all peoples throughout the world that will so covenant, to receive the Christ that will rule earth in peace for 1,000 years. There has never been a time on earth when the Gospel of Christ and the laws, ordinances and covenants of the Kingdom of G-d have been more available to all of mankind than at this very moment today. It is my perceptions that for 2,000 years the wheat and tares have been growing together and that recently there has begun a great shuffling taking place to separate the wheat from not just the tares but the chaff as well. I do not know that much concerning society prior to the flood of Noah and the final advent of Enoch but I cannot imagine that the separations and divisions between the saints of G-d and the perversions of man were any more distinct that what is currently taking place. I would also point out that there is not a nation that currently will not allow those intent on destroying Israel to openly declare their intent throughout all nations, unincumbered without actual recourse. Those that are familiar with the geography and history of Israel know that Armageddon is not a place of war or any battle but rather a symbol or place that Israel gathered and prepared for war. Symbolically the leader Gog and the place of Magog are currently at war and in league with those nations intent on destroying Israel. This is not a time of preparations for war but a time of war in Israel. I am under the impression that this is not a time of peace in the world (despite the Christmas season) but rather a time of increasing tensions, violence and great economic uncertainty. Some speak in terms of the coming election as a deliverance or time of easing. Personally, I doubt that the hope of such things will sustain even till the casting of ballots for that election. Those insisting on procrastinating their final preparations and thinking there is plenty of time remaining to enjoy the exploits of the world – follow a path I do not recommend. The Traveler

I am not so sure about “Ezra’s Eagle”. My main concern is that none of our sustained “prophets” teach these things. As far as given and especially modern revelation concerning the end of times – I am on the notion that nothing is more relevant than the Book of Mormon. My personal most concerning notion is the intrusion of a secret combination, as spoken of in the BofM, into the highest offices of our government – especially those elected and those appointed as judges. I am also concerned about our lawyers and those that work in our legal system. Not all, because I have faith in some I know – like @Just_A_Guy on our forum. But in general, I believe the Book of Mormon to be prophetic and that as the last-days progress we will see in our government how those supporting the satanic secret combinations protect each other and create legal ways to destroy their opposition. The Traveler

I believe you are mostly correct for a Terrestrial or secular society. I am also a proponent of such. However, for a Celestial or Zion society or even a class III on the Kardashev scale – I am of the opinion that there is greater wealth that is achieved when the motivation is beyond self-interest. I think that self-interest cannot drive any society above what I believe is a Terrestrial order – which in historical or worldly sense of things is quite amazing. The Traveler

I thought I would take a shot at my idea of where wealth comes from. I am going to suggest that wealth comes from the populace working in concert doing what is impossible for any individual. I would also suggest that the more the populace works in concert the greater will be the wealth. I will also suggest that the convers is also true the more there is descent or unwillingness to work not just in concert but unwilling to work at all – not only will there be less wealth but if such remains, wealth will be destroyed or fall into ruin. I believe the great question of any economy is how to motivate work – especially to motivate work in concert throughout society. The Traveler

I have prejudice in that I do not like the term Christmas, but I am conflicted because this is the celebration of the Messiah (Christ) and his birth. There is precious little in scripture for such an important and critical event. The stories we tell of this divine birth are somewhat ambiguous – perhaps even part fantasy. I have sought for greater understanding and especially a spiritual assurance in my personal pursuit of light and truth. I am posting for this thread some of my thought and impressions. I am concerned that following the loss of the “Apostles” to the divine kingdom organization put into place by the Christ that there were demonic intrusions to paganize the disciples of Christ. I believe that even the time celebrated for the divine birth is not correct – I believe Jesus was born in the springtime of the Hebrew new year and spring equinox. That there is connection to the birth and the celebration of the Passover. I think there is important significance for the date April 6th and when that is the day of Easter celebration. There are some ancient documents that were rejected at the first council of Nice – among these documents was an account of Mary the mother of Jesus. It was claimed that before Mary was born that an angel appeared to her mother (similar to the birth of John and Jesus) proclaiming the importance of Mary. In addition there were (signs) in the heavens and stars. Mary’s mother felt unworthy to raise the child so shortly after the birth of Mary she was taken to the temple in Jerusalem and given to priests there. It was decided that the child would be given to an elderly priest and his wife that were without children (Zacharias and Elisabeth). This would explain why Mary was so close to and trustful of Elisabeth. As Mary grew as a temple virgin, she was said to have a pleasant personality and was a beautiful child. When she reached the age of 13 she was creating a lot of attention among single visitors – none of whom Zacharias deemed worthy. There was an older man (Joseph) with older children that has lost his wife that Zacharias thought should marry Mary. Joseph wanted nothing to do with it because of his age and concern if he married such a youth he would be ridiculed. Zacharias talked him into the marriage. This age difference would explain why Joseph is no longer referenced after Jesus reached the age of 12. This could also explain how it was that Jesus had siblings as spoken of in scripture – but that they were not half siblings through Mary and since Joseph was not his biological father – there were no true blood siblings of the Christ – only siblings of tradition. From other research – it appears to me that Bethlehem was not much of a city when Jesus was born. There was possibly only one inn and not much room. There is no scripture indicating Joseph talking to any inn keeper about a room or a place at a stable. There are places for travelers (kahn pardon my spelling) and their animals. It was custom for the sleeping places for people and animals kept separate. I do not believe that Jesus was homeless but rather was born at would be comparable to a motel. Bethlehem was also a place where new priests were schooled. I also speculate that the shepherds that were the only individuals in Israel to have angelic witness were priests taking care of sacred “temple” sheep. In ancient Israel their mathematics did not have a zero. When a child was born, it was considered to by one or in their first year. But in many cultures (including ancient Israel) everybody become a year older at the first day of a new year. This means that if a baby was born one day before the new year that when the baby was two days old it would be considered two years old or in the second year. This would explain why Herod had all children two and under killed. It would also mean that Joseph and Mary did not hang around Bethlehem for two years without work or support. It could have been only 1 to three months? One other thing – a few years ago I visited Turkey and the ancient city of Ephesus. Just outside the city was a small place that many believe was the final living quarters of Mary. According to tradition Mary did not die but disappeared. I speculate that she was translated and never tasted death. The Traveler

I wonder why smart (?) people in our government do not listen to a real economist. In either party. The Traveler

This is an excellent example. Our technical needs by industry should have input into what is taught in colleges and even sooner (k-12). Wouldn’t government be willing to incentives needed subjects? Obviously certain subjects are incentivized – but it is also obvious that many incentivized subjects do not provide enough salary for students to pay off student loans after graduation. You would think that industry would be willing to provide scholarships specific to needs and that universities would do research so that their education (degrees) would have relevance. The Traveler

Some observations. But before we begin, I want to dispel the notion, equal pay for equal work. My opinion – regardless of the profession, craft or expertise – take at random ten from the field. It does not matter if the field is toilet cleaners, childcare, doctors, engineers, educators, public servants, professional athlete or whatever – the difference between the best of that category of 10 and the worst of that category of 10 will be remarkable and astonishing. The best can be worth many times what the worst demands. However, the actual pay to such will be equally astonishing – so strange that there are occasions when the lest competent makes more than those better. Observation one: Our educational system is declining – I believe by whatever standard you pick. True, that there may be some exceptions, but I believe the exceptions are also declining. I do not believe this is a recent trend. I believe that things like “Leave no child behind” has made things worse. Why, because, I believe that education should cater to the best and brightest (most motivated) learners. I believe that our educational system has been dumbed down to the most challenged or problematic of our learners and/or their parents. Especially in our public schools. I am of the opinion that there are many reforms needed for our educational system but that the federal government’s involvement in education hinders (prohibits) any reforms from taking place from the local level. Observation two: The workplace reflects many of the same problems of the educational system. It can be impossible to fire an incompetent or problematic worker – especially if they are a “protected minority”. Also, but perhaps not so strange, is that when a company is having problems and announces a lay off – it is not uncommon for the best and brightest of their workers to decide to leave on their own. Why? Because most smart employees learn very quickly that it is much better to work for a company that makes money than one that is losing money. The same is true for management (which is almost always why a company is losing money) – very few of the highly productive and intelligent employees that do the work want to work for or under idiots. Simply put, it is not worth the hassle. Observation three: There is in the USA a chronic disconnect between our educational system and our work force needs. I believe this is true across the entire spectrum of K-12. I believe we have gone too far with our child labor laws to the point that our children are growing up void of any preparatory inclinations to be productive as individuals or collectively as a new generation. It is not a scientific sample but I am still concerned that I talk to very few youth finishing high school that have any idea what they want to do with their life – let alone what is necessary to accomplish it. Few (if any) even know how to balance (control) their own finances. I have not talked to any youth that plan to pay for their own church mission or advanced education. It is astonishing to me that kids are thinking they will go to college with no idea what profession they intend to pursue. I was taught in my youth that the absence of a plan to succeed is the perfect plan to fail. I am wondering if I am still existing on the same planet upon which I was born. The Traveler

Rather than read the link I have read the responses on this thread. I have more trust in this forum than random internet information. I have had more experience with LGBTQ+ than I wished and I will list a number of impressions from my experiences: 1 With extreme exception, all that experience mortality will be resurrected to one of 3 Glories in the Kingdom (heaven) of G-d. Generally, I believe that those perusing LGBTQ+ that do not repent will not be resurrected to nor live the Law and covenants of the Celestial Kingdom of glory. Generally, it is my understanding that those that struggle with repentance will fall into the came category and are not preparing for the Celestial Kingdom of glory. Those that do not love, enjoy and appreciate repentance – I am concerned that they are on a path to something other than Celestial. 2 As with all possibilities – I believe moral purity is more of a spectrum than binary possibility. That with most all possibilities included in the spectrums of possibilities it is only the extremes that we come to think of as a binary choice. The law of chastity (as with all divine laws) has both a letter and spirit of the law. I believe that the letter of the law attempts to be binary (my impression) – it is through the spirit that we prepare for marriage. 3 There are many lies perpetrated in LGBTQ+ theory. I believe two of the biggest are that LGBTQ+ is not a choice. And that it is not a learned nor acquired cognitive behavior. 4 The prime directive of the Saints of G-d is love for one another and that it is impossible to love someone and intend to deprive them of agency. I speculate that in the resurrection that only those that live Celestial Law will respect the agency of others. All other kingdoms will preside over one another and intend to disallow agency. I struggle with this – I have difficulty loving those that abuse their agency. 5 Loving someone does not mean that you accept (condone, support, honor and appreciate) abuses of agency that limit one’s eternal capabilities (the definition of damnation). I am concerned that Satan may have gone off the eternal rails concerned about those that abuse their own agency to the point that he perhaps rebelled thinking to save the difficulties that occur from abuses of agency. The Traveler

Recently while doing some research on the internet, I came across an individual, Jordon Peterson, quite by accident. I found his opinions and expressions rather intriguing – and for me - logical. For those that are not familiar with Jordon he has interesting insights into discussions and the importance of challenges in discussions, especially expressing differing opinions and listening to other opinions. What I found most interesting is his idea that if we do not like an opinion, we out to express that notion and why. What he did not seem to cover is how to resolve heated discussions. He seems to have the notion that we need to learn to deal with difficult discussions. This resonates with me but with the spiritual caveat that when we become angry, we lose a spiritual light of truth. I believe we must learn two things from disagreements. One is that we should love others. (D&C 121:43). That when we show love towards others we do not express disagreements with anger. The other thing that is even more difficult is to learn to listen to those with whom we disagree. This is difficult for me because it seems that if I ask any questions to clarify what I think I understand – it seems to upset those I am trying to understand. Here is an example clip: The Traveler

I have a little admission to make concerning this post. I set a little trap just in case someone was not doing their homework. Shia funds are not funneled through Qatar. It is Sunni funds that are funneled through Qatar. The ramification of both international and domestic effects to our nation and who is really behind the money is most significant. Clue – it is not Iran. I apologize for my intended nefarious trap and am grateful that no one fell for it. The Traveler

You have my full attention – what contractors? What kickback promised in the form of what to who? I suspect many kickbacks occurring to both political parties, media corporations and educational institutions. I am quite sure that foreign money is funneled through George Soros that directly effects our border security (among other security interests ), but I do not see much going to the Republicans. I understand that that Shia backed funds (mostly through Qatar) reaches educational institutions (almost exclusively liberal) and China invests in media (though I suspect they desire our borders are open and a distraction away from ports of entry sescurity). I suspect that a lot of political lobbying offers back and forth through Pharmaceuticals effecting the advertising of prescription drugs and fact tracking various vaccines. I do not doubt that there is a connection between failing green energy companies and various elected officials. But again, all this is weighted more towards the progressive democrats. Then again it is hard to tell who are the good guys verses the bad guys in politics – that is if there are any good guys. I think I would prefer that political money, in regards to our southern border, be funneled more towards US companies giving kick banks to government officials than to Mexican and China drug cartels giving kickback to government officials. The Traveler

An admission: as more time goes by and things continue to unfold – what is happening is not what I expected. The attacks on international shipping are coming from Somali. Somali is Sunni. We are blaming all the problems in the Middle East on Iran – which is Shia. 9/11 was also Sunni. All the money going to universities seems to be predominately Sunni. I understand that the US does not get along well with Iran – but I do not believe Iran is really the problem that we are being told. Something seems to be going on behind the curtain and we are not being told who the enemy pulling the strings really is. The Traveler

What is a Carol Service? How does one of the lessons relate to the Carol Service and why does any lesson rather than a specific lesson have anything to do your worship and personal sacrifice for what you believe? The Traveler

For a long time, I did not think highly of the Osmonds. Then a several years ago I was working in Tiawan and ran into Marie Osmond’s son at church in Tainan where he was serving an LDS mission. He did not identify himself with his famous mother and was one of the most impressive missionaries I have ever encountered in a foreign land. He loved that no one identified him through his famous family (His last name was Craig not Osmond). His work ethic and general kindness (especially for those somewhat economically challenged) was off the charts but even more so for someone with famous parents. The Traveler

Just a bit of a side note. I spent some time consulting with some Hollywood types. A number of weeks on set. Some in this industry are LDS and perhaps otherwise reasonable. I know that BYU has a fine arts center and there is a speech and drama major. I personally think it would be better labeled screech and trauma. If one is to boycott those in such fields based on their poor (even irrational) treatment of others no one would ever go to any movie and unlikely attend any play, concert or any creative art display. My father that was an artist that eventually would not publicly display his art and there seemed to be more people and places that he refused to sale anything to or talk to about art. A personal prejudice of mine is that those that make art their lifelong profession – generally end up quiet messed up. Those, like my father, that make their living one way and rely on art for art sake and as a personal release – seem to have a better chance to retain their humanity. The Traveler

I remember when new apostles were not called until general conference where they were sustained by the Church. Under such conditions many thought that sustaining was like a vote or an election by the membership. I appriciate the way they are currently called - making clear that our sustaining vote is not a means of expressing our choice but rather our aproval and alignment with G-d's choice. The Traveler.

For sake of discussion, I will put forward some ideas. There is a title of Messiah or Christ that goes beyond the person that receives that title. The ancient meaning of Messiah or Christ was the anointed one. In addition, there is also a mention of the spirit of Christ. My personal thinking is that this is something other than the spirit person of Jesus that was our older brother in our first estate. Perhaps the attitude and persona that Jesus took upon himself in our first estate that distinguished him there as The Son of G-d - the only begotten of the Father. In terms of Jesus Christ or Jesus the anointed - has unique and singular meaning directly associated with the “plan of salvation” and the atonement, in that all that are anointed for any divine cause must be anointed according to the order of the priesthood of Christ. The title of Christ is appointed to the name of Jesus by which he was anointed and by which we know him and partake with him in the plan of salvation. There are scriptures by which Jesus presents himself as our covenant proctor in the Father’s plan thereby under the covenant he has the role and title of father by which we partake of the covenant and Jesus becomes the unique and only way or path to return to the kingdom of heaven to be a citizen and agent that is one with the Son and the Father (See the gospel of John chapter 17). The Traveler

I am convinced that there is very little in scripture that can be understood except by and through the spirit of G-d ---- especially those things that relate to eternal life. I do not want to pretend that I have the concepts of wealth all figured out – however, perhaps I have some ideas to be considered. First – I would submit that there is a spiritual difference between riches and wealth. But this is not so obvious because we do not read scripture as they were written but rather as they are interpreted and translated. It is quite possible that our translations state riches when wealth was spiritually intended and vice versa. All this leaves enough ambiguity that anyone can rationalize whatever they wish concerning wealth and riches – not just now in mortality but in the eternities. Second – I would suggest that when the scriptures refer to “Glory” of the resurrection that one could understand that a reference is being made to eternal riches (wealth and power) which is in essence a form of eternal money. All the references to kingdoms of “Glory” are in essence a form of eternal spiritual wealth and money. Thus, the mansions of the Celestial Glory display a much greater wealth than the living quarters of the Telestial Glory. Third – Our president, prophet and current proxy of Christ has admonished us to “think Celestial”. Jesus taught that the greatest in the kingdom of Heaven is the servant. This means that in the eternal scheme of things the greatest accumulation of spiritual money comes from service – which is contrary to non-Celestial thinking that wealthy individuals heir servants to serve them. I would submit that even in this mortal world that anyone that accumulates riches by not serving others – is doing so through the lie of sin and rebellion against G-d the Father. Fourth – the accumulation of wealth through any other means other than eternal service is sin, the beginning of lies and is outright rebellion against G-d the Father. Because Lucifer desired the Glory (eternal money and wealth) of G-d the Father without offering himself in service is what turned Lucifer into Satan – the father of lies. Getting rich without true service (providing eternal benefit to others) is acting as an agent of evil (in the greatest service of Satan). Perhaps I could explain these 4 thoughts better. Surely, I can continue to learn and better serve my G-d and fellow men. The Traveler

Milton Friedman has already been referenced – I will reference him again especially for the benefit of @Carborendum . But I would bend the idea of basic income to what Milton calls the negative income tax. For those interested here is a video of Milton explaining his negative income tax: The Traveler

Obviously, there is more to this than people committing some alliance of sin – other wise it is unlikely that the human species would have survived this long. The term ripe in iniquity is very ambiguous. It seems that whenever someone draws a “red” line that it somehow gets crossed, and the prophesy is not fulfilled. I would submit that the red line of ripe in iniquity is the endangerment of children. From the flood to Sodom and Gomorrah to the Tower of Bable to Ninevah to the destruction of the wicked at the end of times – I would suggest that when the voice of the people allows the offences of abuse of children (especially young children under that age of accountability) that the laws and covenants of heaven require that G-d intervein to save the children. Wars have always taken place – as well as violence and other acts of abuses deliberately targeting young children that ought to be protected by society – I speculate that the keys of destruction lay when the lives of children are sacrificed for pleasure, profit and power – that G-d will destroy such a society. The Traveler

I believe it is important to do research before we settle upon an opinion. Here is a sketch of my research. There is in history a few examples of successful programs for a stable society dealing with their poor. The problem we have with the few examples that exist is that we have little information about the policies or the implications of policies and principles. The one example that specifically states that poverty was illimited is in the Book of Mormon of the society of the Nephites following the appearance of Christ. We therefore do know that poverty can be eliminated. We also know that the economic policy that we have information on, with the most success in advancing economic development, technology, education and increased living standards is capitalism. Many (including myself) believe that the current economic system employed in the USA is not capitalism but rather a corrupted version of capitalism. Let us take a look at our current poverty program, where it came from and what are its flaws. The beginning of the poverty programs in the USA began with the 1960 census. This census was the most complete census ever undertaken and recorded in human history. It is from this census that the progressive liberals developed a theory to eradicate poverty. They demonstrated from the 1960 census that if 2% of the nation’s GDP was transferred to the poor that poverty would be eradicated. In other words that all the individual falling under their definition of economic poverty could be financially lifted out of poverty. In 1965 then President Johnston launched in congress what was called “The Great Society”. With the backing of the 1960 census Johnston and the Democrats created programs to end poverty and create an environmentally friendly (pollution free) society. The 2% of the GDP needed to end poverty since then has increased to over 20+% since I last checked over a decade ago. Now with over 25% of our GDP siphoned off for poverty the result today is that poverty in the USA is even worse now than before any of the programs of the Great Society were even initiated. I have been unable to determine how much has been spent on environmental programs since 1965, but the results of all that has been spent – according to Democratic propaganda (Please note my use of the terms propaganda and Democrat we could just say Political rhetoric) – our environmental concerns (currently global warming and climate change) have increased substantially and our environment is in more danger now than in any time of human history. Might I suggest that seeking any government solution in such manners is counterproductive. The Traveler