Traveler

I will admit that there are a lot of things for which I have somewhat of an opinion but have not done a great deal of research. White supremacy and Nazi organizations are among such things. I do not believe that White Supremacy and Nazi organizations amount to much of anything in today’s landscape – I do not believe they are even worth the time to attempt in depth attention. In essence it is my unstudied in depth thinking that what does exist are in essence poorly funded copy-cat want-to-be fringe efforts by pseudo nut jobs. They may run some websites and fund some paramilitary militia type organizations – they may even have some international connections into human trafficking and drugs. But I do not believe they have the expertise to deal with a decent city police organization. Not 100% sure but I do not think White Supremacy and Nazis are much of any concern for @mirkwood . And of all the possibilities on the forum I would think he has more experience and knowledge in dealing with White Supremacist and Nazis. It is my opinion that the fear of such organizations are more political (as in political distraction) than actual. For example, for all the fuss about the so-called Jan-6 insurrection coup d'état – what does anyone know about the hangman gallows (or the pipe bomb) and why it took the FBI or any other law inforcement so long to deal with them? And who was, in reality, actuality behind either or both? Compare all that to how easy it is to follow BLM funding and activities, not just by law enforcement but even second rate politically biased journalists. I am of the opinion (not a deep or unchangeable opinion) that if the truth was known – the antisemitic support at elite college campuses (mostly or exclusively in very liberal or blue cities and states) are better funded and politically backed (either openly or in secret) than any White Supremacy or Nazi organizations that so many liberals are having a coronary about. The Traveler

Let me help you since you may not be able to find what needs to be considered on Google – but I would say you can go to a Muslem mosque on a Friday (Islamic day of worship) and ask the following. On the last day of the Hajj before sundown – why are stones thrown at a pillar? What is the significance of the last day before sundown and the pillar and throwing a stone? And then as a follow-on question – What is the primary indication of HaSatan’s power at the end of times. If you do now want to take the time at a mosque I will help you. The Hajj is a symbolic representation the path in life leading to submission to Alah. The word Islam means submission to the will of G-d (Alah). The last day before sundown is representative of the last days of a world ruled by evil. The pillar is representative of HaSatan that is the evil ruler currently in power of this world. The throwing of a stone is representative of submission to the will of G-d to fight violently against HaSatan at the end of times. The primary indication of HaSatan is the gathering of wealth by the means of compound interest. As a side note this is parallel a Biblical (Christian) doctrine that the love of money is the root of “ALL” Evil. The Traveler

Thanks for your response. Riding society (at least on a limited basis) may be closer than you think. Both by scripture (Quran) and by the Hajj (pilgrimage to Mecca) the first or prime directive of a Jihad (holy war) is the ending of compound interest and Satan that is behind it. This is the primary reason that the twin towers on Wall Street in New York, were targeted in 9/11. My argument directed to my Islamic friends, is that 9/11 was evil because all the deaths were carried out on innocent captive slaves of compound interest and that the perpetrators of compound interest were unharmed. The Traveler

Greetings, friend. Generally, I agree with your inputs. I do have something I would like to add to this comment in your post. But first a little bit of background. Not so long ago I was the lead engineer over a upgrade and automation of a beef slaughter house facility of one of the nation's largest supplier of beef products for wholesale distribution. My involvement required that I become somewhat expert in the entire process of beef production. One element of beef production that drew my attention was the involvement of the FDA inspectors at the facility. I am sorry to say that the vast majority of their time was used up sitting in a nice office at leisure. It looked to me (and enforced by those employed at the facility) that the FDA inspectors were experts at their task, but I was quite surprised to learn what exactly their task was. The FDA inspectors would walk through the slaughtered carcasses and grade the meat according to FDA standards for prime, choice, select, standard, commercial, utility, cutter or canner. In short, these grades have to do with the fat content of the meat. Seldom (never from what I saw) would a carcass have one FDA standard. As part of the facilities standards – there were many critical tests outside of the FDA’s purview. These tests checked for bacteria, viruses, chemicals, hormones and other contaminants in the meat. I inquired about these additional tests and learned that the tests were run to avoid recalls and complaints that could be triggered by many sources. Not only are recalls and complaints expensive but severally impact their distribution reliability and credibility. The additional testing is strictly economically driven (something that I am concerned that posters like @Phoenix_person do not understand as to how such additional quality standards so severely impacts) the quality of products in a highly capital-based economy. The Traveler

Sometimes I am concerned that politicians (both democrat and republican) are focused on legislation and spending to benefit themselves, their political party and their hidden agendas (including friends and colleges) rather than the citizens of the country they pretend to represent despite the oath of office they took. I believe that because democrats and often republicans vote as a block that the citizens – especially citizens like myself that do not align with democrats or republicans – are denied the right to be represented. We ought to be Americans first and party members secondary. Maybe we ought to think about requiring an oath for bureaucrats and other government workers. The Traveler

Prayers concerning what we eat has long been an interesting topic for me. I thought to post some thought that I have dealt with. On my mission I had a companion that wanted to bless the food when we brought it home from shopping. He gave some reason – I will include a few. It avoids unnecessary repetition (we are encouraged to avoid vain repetition in our prayers). Many items saved as leftovers have already been blessed. A box of cold cereal can end up being blessed many times. It saves time before meals and also food can be eaten at preferred temperatures. You also do not have to worry about blessing snacks. A good friend of mine (a Polynesian) insisted on a prayer on everything – even a stick of gum. He also included a blessing that nourishment and strength would come from the blessing of what was being partaken. I would kid him about blessing donuts, but he always insisted. I have become convinced that such faith has a positive effect. A long time ago, when I was attending university at BYU, many students would say a prayer on their food in public at the cafeteria. One very spiritual friend never would say a private prayer on food in public. I like to know things so I asked why. They responded that for them, private prayers were kept private. They would offer a private prayer at home for their away meals. For myself, I have found this consideration to be of value especially when traveling. For all my experiences, I have concluded that prayers (not just on food but for many things of which we use and partake), especially of thanks, are a good thing and that Latter-day Saints ought not to criticize humble prayers – regardless of words or physical things we personally may not use or prefer for ourselves. If there is any doubt, I think it is best to error on the side of too many prayers rather than too few. I think we should be thankful for all things that we use. My Polynesian friend mentioned above would bless his car for trips and other things that he would use. I want to thank those posting in this thread to remind me to seek blessings on things I use (beyond food) with a promise to use things according to my covenants. Even though I am embarrassed and sometimes loose things – I find prayers for assistance and help very beneficial. I believe it wise to bless all things we use and partake of – even things like headphones, computers, tools and sport equipment. I believe offering prayers of thanks and prayers of benediction to be used for good as an act of faith and in line with our covenant of consecration for benediction – even of our talents. I think we ought to support most blessings – of course there are exceptions like blessing for use things like alcohol, tobacco and recreational drugs. If someone wants to offer blessings on their clothing, tools or even a woman that wants to offer a prayer for the makeup they use – I can support such things asked in faith and humility. The Traveler

Thank you for your input. Compound interest was first known to be instituted in the banking industry of ancient Babylon over 4 millennium years ago. It was first called interest upon interest. Though elements of capitalism have always been used in all economic systems, capitalism was not officially instituted as an economic system until the industrial revolutionary period which began in the 18th century. My point here is that the two principles (capitalism and compound interest) are not synonymous. What I have been trying to help you understand is that the failure of all economic systems have been directly related to a declining economic output – in short, the need for goods and services have far outreached the supply. Sadly, almost every system that has previously existed has ended with a reserve of goods and services among a hierarchy of that society. The exception being societies destroyed by natural disasters and wars. The only reason that I support capitalism is because it is the only system capable of maximizing the output of goods and services. Those that tout socialized economic systems focus only on the even distribution of goods and services and not on the increasing of goods and services – even in order to meet basic needs. I believe I understand your concerns – better than most. At one point of my life, I spent 40 days surviving in high altitude deserts of central and southern Utah with a rope, the clothes on my back, the shoes on my feet, a hat, a jacket (military field jacket) and a knife. I ate mostly grubs and insects. I have met real hobos. They tend to avoid cities and survive in mostly wilderness settings. I consider someone to be institutionalized if they are dependent on the output of others to meet their needs. The problem with relying and depending on others is that you will always be subservient to whatever they are willing to provide, or you will use force (even violence) to acquire needed goods and services. I believe it is this complete misunderstanding of being subservient that is used to sell socialism as a beneficial economic solution. I am curious why you are opposed to capitalism on one hand and could care less about compound interest. It is simple mathematics that is all that is needed to demonstrate that by eliminating compound interest one will triple to a multiple of ten one’s purchasing power depending on payoff structures. If you use a credit card, borrow to purchase an automobile or home – would you be able to live within your means of 5 times your current salary? That is what you would have just by going to a banking system without compound interest and our current capitalism. You really think you would be better under any socialized system? I doubt you have looked into this in depth. As a side note my brother was hospitalized while he and I were on vacation in Norway – Norway is supposed to have the best socialized medical on the planet. After the first night he was fearful for his and other’s life for lack of care at the hospital. It should tell you something when the vast majority of illegal immigration into the USA are poor individuals trying to get into the most capitalistic nation on earth – many of whom are fleeing socialized countries. Every nation I know of – including socialized countries (including Russia and China) have national banks charging compound interest. My friend – I do not care where you think you may want to live or how you may think you want to live anywhere – if you do not get rid of compound interest in your life (and those around you) – you will all be worse off economically than you are now. The Traveler

I seriously regret having to give a person like you (that is well above the intellectual norm) an elementary lesson in number theory. The fist lesson that is taught in mathematics revolves around the “counting numbers” of number theory. Zero does not belong to the set of counting numbers. You can look it up for yourself – you do not need to take my word for it. Anciently counting numbers were the only numbers generally understood, and this little fact is imbedded in serious flaws in Biblical versions of our modern translations of the Bible. For example, we read that Jesus was dead in the tomb for 3 days when in reality he was not there for more than a day and a half when calculating a 24-hour day. Another example is the confusion over the time it took the “Wise Men” of the East to come to visit the Christ Child. It is thought to be two years when it could have been (actually possible to have been) less than a month. I also thought that you are a computer whiz – which should mean that you understand the history of programming. I know this will date me but there was a time that I could add, subtract, multiple and divide in binary, octal, hex and decimal numbers without a calculator. I also recall the old joke that Halloween and Christmas were the same day, and I could prove it. Any good computer programmer knows that an octal 31 (Halloween - Oct 31) = decimal 25 (Christmas - Dec 25). For anyone interested, numbers of different bases has had an impact on history. It is my theory that Abraham was taught and understood base 60 numbers that were first thought to be used by the ancient Sumerians and Babylonians. Though my theory differs from the accepted thought – I theorize that base 60 numbers were used to provide a ratio for standardizing dimensional space time that shows up in the Book of Abraham chapter 3. The ancient Egyptians established the Karnak temple as the meridian of space time – which was believed to be the means to navigate to anywhere – including to the divine kingdom of heaven. I know this does not seem so important, but we still navigate in space and time today using base 60 numbers. Understanding the significance of including zero into our modern number theory is important in order to understand the ratio of mathematics and science. The Traveler

Look at what you just said, “The first item” not “the zero item”. The second problem is that you are confusing a list with the concept of index or offset. But do not feel bad – a great deal of programmers make this same mistake of confusing an array by counting the offsets in the array rather than the array items themselves. Anyone that has mastered a first, second or third generation language will understand this programming flaw quite well. In mathematical terms – the “mathematical identity of addition” is zero. In essence it means the number added to any other number will result in the same number to which it is added. Why is this important in programming? Because if you are at the fifth item (your index is pointing to the fifth item of the array) in an array, what must you add to where you are in an array to get to whatever item you want next. If you still want the fifth item, you will use an offset of zero to your current index. If you use 5 as the offset to your index, you will end up at the tenth item. @mordorbund The problem is not really with mathematicians but rather those with limited understanding, thinking that they have a solution (which is incorrect or incorrectly applied) to the problem. The Traveler

I am glad to see you posting again. Thanks for your input. I am, however, concerned with what appears to me to be a rut you are stuck in. I will challenge your understanding of wealth verses poverty. Throughout all history the single most economic system to even come close to eliminating poverty has been capitalism. The single most “economic” cause in the disparity between wealth and poverty in our era that I am aware of is the implementation of compound interest. Because of your particular view – I would very much appreciate a dialog that addresses compound interest. As a side note – it is my personal belief and understanding that compound interest would absolutely be completely eliminated in a true capitalist economy. Compound interest is an element directly controlled out of by an oligarchy. Which BTW is what your graphic represents the most. I would also like to discuss 5 factors that I believe contribute to why individuals are not productive and able to function economically. First category. I will call them the severely handicapped (either mentally or physically or both) they are incapable of economically benefiting society and must be cared for. There is no possible way for them ever to contribute. Second category. I will call them addicted substance abusers. Though this mostly a spectrum rather than an individual category – they are never-the-less individuals incapable of economic contribution or of making decisions on their own and must be cared for. Third category. I will call them the age category which is in essence adolescence and extremely aged Fourth category. I will call Hobos. These are individuals that for whatever reason have made a conscious decision to drop off from contributing economically to society. Though they are mentally and physically capable of contributing, they choose otherwise. Fifth category. I will call the economic fringe. They are hardly capable of contributing economically and any difficulty experienced leaves them temporarily below the poverty line. This is the only category that can be helped out of poverty by various efforts of charity. My personal experience with those that suffer from poverty fit into both the first and second categories. They suffer from both mental (or physical) and substance dependence. I have worked to help these individuals and have concluded that I lack the understanding of any beneficial method of assistance. If you have some beneficial ideas, I would be interested in how you have had success. It is mostly my impression that the first 3 categories must be institutionalized. The first two categories must be socially institutionalized, and the third category is best institutionalized within a family organization – preferably headed by a loving father figure and a loving mother figure. (I do recognize that the preferred family may not be functional which leaves less preferable possibilities). I have had little exposure to the third category, but I believe they will choose what they will regardless of intervention by anyone else. My final question is – Is the idea of only Sith and religious fundamentalists dealing in absolutes -dealing in an absolute in and of itself? The Traveler

Some thought about music, hymns and the standard of sacred music. First. For my friend @zil2 – As you are a literary expert (which I am not) I recognize your superior knowledge of literature. However, math and number theory is a specific kind of literature that is based on logic and void of ambiguity. Beginning a list (set of counting numbers) with zero is a gross grammatical misuse of the mathematical language. Much worse than dangling participles in English. Second. Music is a form of worship and can be a type of prayer. I am old enough to remember when hymns were sung in the temple. However, those temple hymns were sung specifically under conditions such that I would have difficulty considering sacred or part of the hymns and music of the restoration. Just as many ancient scripture texts have become corrupted so has a lot of music. I believe that Celestial music will differ from Terrestrial music that will differ from Telestial music. I suspect that the music of outer darkness will be very different that all other. Third. Standard worldwide hymns can be problematic. One example is Chinese that uses tonal variances to change the meaning of a word. The word “ma” can be spoken in Chinese 12 different tonal ways that drastically change the meaning. Singing a hymn in Chinese is a problem because following the melody (as well as parts) will change the meaning of what is being sung. My first experience listening to church members trying to sing hymns in Tiawan left me thinking that the entire congregation was tone death. Some things just do not translate well. Throughout my life I have had to relearn many things. Some things I thought highly of (like the Big Bang Theory) have turned out to be quite out of sorts with the bits and pieces of the pure light of truth to which I have been exposed to over time. In many ways I loved the “church” I grew up with in my youth. I have attempted to keep up with all the changes but in all honesty sometimes I think standards have been lowered in order to be more inclusive. The Traveler

Not sure where to put this thread. After contemplating the possibilities, this forum heading was chosen but not for any defendable reason – more of a default. The Book of Mormon stresses a dichotomy of possibilities that are polar opposites. That “everything” exists with a opposing opposite. In our literary past, Charles Dickens wrote a masterpiece called, “A tale of Two Cities” – I will quote the first paragraph. Perhaps there should be many threads for this subject, but for now there is this thread. Any subject could be selected – Politics, religion, education, science, health, mental health and stability, entertainment, foreign affairs or whatever. There seems like we are standing at a threshold of a new world – but of what? Are things about to get better or much worse? I will pick science for one topic (though I am interested in all and more than what is listed above). All the fundamentals of science are being challenged from the relatively new science of quantum physics that is questioning the fundamental particles of bosons and fermions to our very definition of gravity in both Newtonian and relativity physics. The reason is because a wide range of experimental data is indicating that something of critical importance is missing and there is confusion over to define and quantify not just what it is but how far reaching and impactful it could be. In my lifetime science has exploded and changed how we view everything. Some think science has even replaced religion or at least made religion obsolete. And yet there seems to be more divergence than consolidation. What seems to be obvious science to me is challenged by what I believe is pseudo-science. For example, does science define what is a man or what is a woman, or can we control or dictate through science (or other means) what is a man or what is a woman? But it is not the question nor the answer that I think is important. There are two things that I think are more important to ask and answer first. The first is what are we trying to discover? The second is what are we intending to achieve? Are we at a threshold of humanity? A threshold that opens to a new and wonderful future or are we on the threshold of the destruction of humanity? Or are we experiencing a natural evolution (change) in that indeed we are coming to an end of somethings that will never be again and a beginning of somethings that never were before? Or are we just in a cycle that has happened before and will happen again with the old adage that the more things change the more they remain the same? The Traveler

Let me know the next time you go to Provo for a football game I and will get you a cougar tail. The Traveler

What concerns me comes from the darkness of Joseph Goebbels the evil father of mass indoctrination, propaganda and brain washing that said in essence – what ever the masses will tolerate they will eventually embrace. The Traveler

I am not sure, but I think that perhaps you missed my point. I am not so much concerned with players (though only one team can end their run for the championship with a win). My concern is the vicarious effect upon fans – most of which appears to me to be negative. Especially upon the youth whose brains have not fully developed executive functions capable of discerning what is reasonable verses unreasonable. It also seems to affect a growing number of adults that vicariously seem to insert their own self worth into something that does not deserve such an investment. I used to travel to away BYU games and enjoy talking to local fans. Often enjoying getting to know them while explaining why, they should not buy me (or most other BYU fans) a beer. There are certain fans that do not like any fans from any visiting team on their home turf. It is not just verbal slurs but from time to time even food and drinks tossed in spite. The all time worse such fans are Wyoming (though I have met many good-natured Wyoming fans at venues other than their home venues) and for the sake of peace on the forum – I will not mention the second worse fanbase or what they are capable of. As a side note I have attended events at Noter Dame and find those fans the best – even much better than BYU fans. As I was leaving, I was congratulated by Noter Dame fans that waited just thank me for coming and for my team’s win. If I was good at a sport – I would not want to waste my talents on trashy fans without class. I would want to represent respectful fans with class that could handle a hard fought close lost with dignity. The Traveler

Elder Boyd K Packer wanted to get out of competitive NCAA sports at all Church schools. He succeeded in instituting intramural sports as the focus at all church institutions except BYU Provo, Utah. The problem is seldom with the players and almost always with fans. The term fan is short for fanatic. As a youthful boy, I use to sneak into BYU games at the old stadium and field house. I still like rooting for my cougars where I attended college, but much has changed since my youth – most notably with the fans. In many ways I agree with Brother Packer. I like cheering but resent booing. I really do not like the atmosphere, especially at basketball games aimed at intimidating any players or referees. The atmosphere among the fans between BYU and the University of Utah is absolutely deplorable and frankly, is an embarrassment (or should be an embarrassment) to a Latter-day Saint that roots for either school. So much so that I do not think the two should play against each other - ever. There are fans on both sides that are reasonable but the idoits on both sides all too often ignite the worst in each other. Some disagree with the attitude that it is all part of the game – and that is at the core of the problem. I would like to also say something about refs. One of my best friends from my childhood dearly loved sports and became a professional ref for high schools and colleges. There is also a professional ref in my stake that used to be in my ward. I am convinced that anyone that complains about a call or a ref does not personally know a ref and definitely has ever walked in their shoes. Refs are a critical and integral part of decent sport and competition that usually make far fewer mistakes (including mistakes of judgments) than coaches and players but definitely fewer than fans. I saw the final play between BYU and Arizona. It looked like a good call for a hip check that changed the play on the ball. The same foul was called several times during the game on BYU mostly when BYU was playing offence setting screens. I admit that in this case I have a prejudice, and I have not talked to any of my ref friends. But I do trust the particular professional and agree with the Arizona coach that the particular ref is one of the best in the conference. I would add something I have learned from professional refs – seldom if ever do they favor a team or deliberately make calls for or against a team. But they will deliberately make calls for or against players – especially against players that are mouthy, disrespectful or are consistently pushing the limits, trying to get away with stuff. Can refs make a difference in a game? – Absolutely! And that is why we have them. Any player that does not understand that refs can and will make a difference – should not be playing the game, or at least they need to learn how to play the game with refs enforcing the rules of the game. After all – it is only a game. It is about sports and sportsmanship. Something that, at least to me, seems to be what Elder Packer was concerned about and something we all should consider carefully. I really do not like professional sports. I believe money corrupts sportsmanship – though it is not the only corruption of sportsmanship it is definitely a contributor. Something that concerns me greatly with the current trends in NCAA sports. The Traveler

I have thought to engage you post and certain thoughts. My intention is to be careful because there are some things that may appear that I disagree, but I am not sure that is the case. Hopefully, it is mostly a misunderstanding. My understanding of righteousness is someone that makes and keeps covenants with G-d. The opposite of righteousness is wickedness and thus is someone that either refuses to covenant with G-d or deliberately breaks their covenant with G-d. I believe that there is a third option – someone that does not know or understand G-d and his covenants. I am of the mind that the vast majority of us humans fall into this third option of someone, that to some degree or another, just does not understand that much about G-d or his covenants as we should. We tend to think only someone that is anti-Christ would crucify Him – and yet the last words of Christ during his mortal experience were, “Father forgive them for they know no what they do.” At another time and place Jesus forbid his disciples from judging others. Some scholars have interpreted that what Jesus said would be better translated as Jesus forbidding his disciples from condemning others. This introduces a bit of a conundrum. Would condemning someone as being anti-Christ be an actual act of an anti-Christ? Jesus said that to look upon another and lust after them, means that we have already committed adultery in our heart. If we are to only have those void of adultery to be our leaders – who has never committed adultery in their heart? And who is worthy to determine who has or has not repented? Be it 7 or 70 times 7 acts of repentance? I would personally be elated if an Apostle of Christ could be elected. Unfortunately, in our society to even write in an Apostle of Christ would be a wasted ballot. I would make one point for your consideration. In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints donated funds are considered sacred. The abuse and misuse of donated funds to the Church are considered sufficient for excommunication from the Church. It is an act that requires the First Presidency review for repentance and restoration of covenant blessings. During my entire lifetime (which is approaching 8 decades) there has never been a president of the United States of America that believes donated (taxed) funds are sacred and should not be wasted or abused than what appears to me to be the actions of President Trump. I do not personally know Trump. I have not liked him much as a person because I am not a fan of corporate billionaires. I am even less a fan of professional politicians. It has been more than 50 years that I have felt that I could campaign for anyone running for political office because of my personal prejudice of those willing to run for a national political office. Because of my personal covenants with G-d and especially the 12th Article of Faith I have personally bit my tongue about kings, presidents, rulers and magistrates. I hope for a time when Christ will reign. But until such a time, I will abide by the laws that are established – even while I visit such places as Russia or China or wherever. And yet for all my disappointments in political leaders I dare not judge or condemn any so as to present my witness that any are without any doubt in my mind to be anti-Christ. Though I believe many things of the world to be anti-Christ and should be called out and witnessed to be anti-Christ – I do not know enough about any individual to so label them. The Traveler

Who told you that? The human brain never stops thinking – even during the different cycles of sleep. It is just a specific part of the brain that produces adrenaline and kicks in a different kind of thinking. 🤪 The Traveler

Keep in mind that Mr. Collins was created completely from an Elizabethan female with what I consider a limited understanding of men. At least as limited of men as I am of females – especially Elizabethan females. The Traveler

The so-called Muppets are not a single franchise. It was split into two franchises. One stayed with Sesame Street, the other did movies and other pursuits. Each of the characters is also an individual that is licensed to that character to which no one else can replace or act. It is my understanding that individuals can sign contracts for their acting – even within a particular franchise (like Star Wars) but an individual can still seek work on their own. BYU and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is capable of creating their own licensed characters – like Studio C but they cannot control the actors themselves. BYU already has their hands full with rogue professors. With the very limited exposure I have personally had with actors and the movie enterprise in general – I am of the mind that BYU is better off letting the movie industry (as well as the entire spectrum of entertainment industry) to produce what they will and then pick and choose what they will for broadcasting – the Tabernacle Choir at Temple Squar as the singular exception. The Traveler

I wanted to post thanks to you and others like you for choosing the profession that you have. I do not believe that force is ever an option when they are angry with rage. I could not or should not do your job for a different reason. Force should be avoided at all costs if it feeds into an adrenaline rush. The Traveler

I find these videos both interesting and compelling. And yet at the same time, I believe we must be careful. I do not believe that Brother Bradley insights are coincidences but rather these things are rather threads in a tapestry of understanding and conviction to assist us to believe in and follow Christ. It is both confusing and sad to me that not one of the witnesses (including all the exceptional historical parallels to the ancient witnesses of Christ) of the Book of Mormon came west to what is now Utah with Brigham Young and the pioneering vanguard of Saints. Of course, we can argue that none of the witnesses ever wavered in their testimony of the Book of Mormon and that is another witness in and of itself. But never-the-less, the historical parallel is not quite the same. I do believe that Brother Bradley has exceptional spiritual gifts, and it would be well for us to incorporate his witness and testimony into our own tapestry of understanding of the marvelous works and wonders of the restoration. I also believe that every testimony and witness of Christ (including even those not of our faith) can be received and added to our personal tapestry that Jesus is the Christ, our L-rd, our redeemer and the author of our salvation. The Traveler

It is my wish that we learn to listen to each other. I started this thread because I do not think it is possible to have a conversation with many good people that think Trump is the Anti-Christ. The fellow I referenced in my initial post is a friend, an ultra-conservative, stanch republican and a stalwart temple LDS. What I do not understand is why this otherwise good person cannot have respectable dialog about Trump with anyone that supports anything Trump is doing. I will use this friend as an example. He was not just angry; he could not even express himself without a high level of contention. His contention was not just in his tone of voice but also in accusation. His accusations were along the lines of Hitler and the Nazi following (I have studied Joseph Goebbels and the Nazi movement). I do not think Trump fits that category. I do believe that Trump is a narcissist. With perhaps very rare exception – I think every career politician (and the vast majority of bureaucrats) are narcissists just to be able to survive the current climate of our government. Back to the FBI agents involved in the January 6 incident at our capital. It is my understanding that they were working undercover. They were not wearing garb with FBI written on them. I do not think the FBI followed protocol concerning the pipe bomb. I also do not believe they were following protocols to encourage taking down barriers and entering our congressional building. I also do not believe that anything Trump said was even as near as bad as what several of our elected officials are saying on intercom speakers at rallies (in DC) in opposition to DOGE. I do not understand the logic of such seemingly double standard. I will admit that I do not know sufficient information to be sure of anything beyond my own suspicion – that I do not trust enough to accuse anyone of criminal behavior – let alone what I understand of the Anti-Christ. What concerns me is that though I would love to sit down and have a completely open discussion with the likes of someone like @JohnsonJones – I am not sure it is possible to discuss details and question logic without generating contention with someone that I do not wish at all to offend. I would only like to discover what I seem to have missed. I am not interested in name calling or labels. I do not believe talking about Trump as a convicted felon is any more sufficient than accusing Jesus because he also was a convicted felon. I am interested not so much in any opinion as I am in the why of specific opinions – and if such why’s are distributed amicably without bias. Why do I currently support Trump? Because of DOGE. I believe (and with what I consider good logic and reason) that 90% of our federal social programs are wasted on corruption and inefficiency. In all my life I have not encountered any other politician willing to take on the corruption (both political and personal pushback) and waist in our government. I question why our elected officials (especially federal) seem to leave office with vast amounts of wealth beyond their pay grade. With the exception of Trump that has lost wealth. Not that I believe in Trump more than those called on our Church – just that I believe wealth and especially the desire to keep wealth is so often an indication of corruption. Many of our founding fathers accumulated a lot of wealth that was lost in their pursuits of freedom and liberties. The Traveler

I have come to believe that it is a very natural man reaction to get upset and even angry when falsely accused or deliberately triggered, but anger seldom (if ever) helps the situation. It can be beneficial to express disappointment (as Jesus often did even among his Apostles) but Jesus also warned not to get angry with others. When among the Nephites, Jesus forbid them from becoming contentious. I believe it was Benjamin Franklin that said something along the following, “Only a fool will be offended by someone that did not mean to offend. But it takes a bigger fool to be offended by someone that meant the offence.” The Traveler

I saw a clip on Fox news that is a preview of a Trump and Musk interview. Musk is talking about a good friend (but no longer a friend) of his that started to talk about Trump, and it was like he was shot with a dart of methine laced with rabies. Musk said that his friend suddenly turned. Musk then holds his hands up like claws. This was quite a surprise to me and at the same time I realized that I have observed this same behavior myself – both with family members and friends. Some are not democrats but republican supporters of Romney. In all cases the conversations were not expressly about Trump. For example, about a year ago I asked a family member if they had determined who they were going to vote for. They never answered the question but instead when into a very angry rant about Trump and why Trump could not ever be president again. In a more recent case, someone mentioned how they could not believe all the corruption and graft was being discovered by DOGE. And then a friend suddenly went into a most angry tangent rant about Trump targeting FBI agents to lose their jobs that opposed him on Jan 6th. Musk said that it is impossible to have any reasonable discussion with such angry individuals. I do not know if anyone has noticed this Trump derangement syndrome. I am of the belief that contention is of the devel. I have no desire what-so-ever to have any kind of a discussion with someone that is hot angry – even if I agree with what they are saying. In fact, if someone is angry in discussing a subject, I am of the notion that I need to rethink my stand if I agree with them. There are several conservative commentators that I just do not listen to because their composure is somewhat over the top with anger. One last side note. A long time ago in a galaxy far far away I competed in debate in high school. I learned that if I could make my opponent angry I would always win the debate – a tactic my debate partner was expert at and won us a state championship. This is also a lesion I have determined is necessary for communicating on the internet. If something makes me angry, it is only because Satan has found a way into my heart. The Traveler