Traveler

Milton Friedman has already been referenced – I will reference him again especially for the benefit of @Carborendum . But I would bend the idea of basic income to what Milton calls the negative income tax. For those interested here is a video of Milton explaining his negative income tax: The Traveler

Obviously, there is more to this than people committing some alliance of sin – other wise it is unlikely that the human species would have survived this long. The term ripe in iniquity is very ambiguous. It seems that whenever someone draws a “red” line that it somehow gets crossed, and the prophesy is not fulfilled. I would submit that the red line of ripe in iniquity is the endangerment of children. From the flood to Sodom and Gomorrah to the Tower of Bable to Ninevah to the destruction of the wicked at the end of times – I would suggest that when the voice of the people allows the offences of abuse of children (especially young children under that age of accountability) that the laws and covenants of heaven require that G-d intervein to save the children. Wars have always taken place – as well as violence and other acts of abuses deliberately targeting young children that ought to be protected by society – I speculate that the keys of destruction lay when the lives of children are sacrificed for pleasure, profit and power – that G-d will destroy such a society. The Traveler

I believe it is important to do research before we settle upon an opinion. Here is a sketch of my research. There is in history a few examples of successful programs for a stable society dealing with their poor. The problem we have with the few examples that exist is that we have little information about the policies or the implications of policies and principles. The one example that specifically states that poverty was illimited is in the Book of Mormon of the society of the Nephites following the appearance of Christ. We therefore do know that poverty can be eliminated. We also know that the economic policy that we have information on, with the most success in advancing economic development, technology, education and increased living standards is capitalism. Many (including myself) believe that the current economic system employed in the USA is not capitalism but rather a corrupted version of capitalism. Let us take a look at our current poverty program, where it came from and what are its flaws. The beginning of the poverty programs in the USA began with the 1960 census. This census was the most complete census ever undertaken and recorded in human history. It is from this census that the progressive liberals developed a theory to eradicate poverty. They demonstrated from the 1960 census that if 2% of the nation’s GDP was transferred to the poor that poverty would be eradicated. In other words that all the individual falling under their definition of economic poverty could be financially lifted out of poverty. In 1965 then President Johnston launched in congress what was called “The Great Society”. With the backing of the 1960 census Johnston and the Democrats created programs to end poverty and create an environmentally friendly (pollution free) society. The 2% of the GDP needed to end poverty since then has increased to over 20+% since I last checked over a decade ago. Now with over 25% of our GDP siphoned off for poverty the result today is that poverty in the USA is even worse now than before any of the programs of the Great Society were even initiated. I have been unable to determine how much has been spent on environmental programs since 1965, but the results of all that has been spent – according to Democratic propaganda (Please note my use of the terms propaganda and Democrat we could just say Political rhetoric) – our environmental concerns (currently global warming and climate change) have increased substantially and our environment is in more danger now than in any time of human history. Might I suggest that seeking any government solution in such manners is counterproductive. The Traveler

Just a note -- This enduring thread that has brought to the table many classic thoughts and points was initially started by @anatess2 (one of my favorite thinkers an posters) that no longer posts on the forum. It would be beyond just wonderful if she returned to post more of her classic thinking. The Traveler

Do you plan to ski this winter without gloves? The Traveler

As I have personally navigated through the few years of human history during my lifetime it has been interesting to me how few people have realized the trends of human society at the moment and have ignored various things until it affects them (or someone they know and love) directly. It also seems to me that most of the events of human society involve a number of critical principles rather than just one or two – when in reality there are likely many critical principles – some of which are hidden. It is interesting to me that along with the conflict of Israel and Hamas that as time goes on we are learning that many other human principalities are also involved and have been from the beginning of this latest conflict. Fox news is covering a claim made by a US senator that an employee of the UN agency, (United Nations Relief and Works Agency) maintained a female Israeli hostage, taken by Hamas operatives, in their private resident for as many as 50 days. In addition, it seems to me that there is a trend in political demonstrations involving individuals that are seemingly are not connected to Israel or Hamas but are demonstrating for Hamas. That a possible majority of demonstrators in the USA also demonstrated for Black Lives Matter and LGBTQ+. If between now and the next US presidential election, if China makes a move on Tiawan – I would suggest that the Israeli Hamas is a critical step in a global conflict decades in the planning that we are in essence witnessing the fulfillment of prophesy. Another possible event on the horizon is a serious of violent conflicts between illegal immigrants and various groups (including law enforcement and economic interests {bank and various corporations) here in the USA. The Traveler

Season’s Greetings Johnson Jones: I appreciate your input and I read it with interest. I wish I knew for sure if I agree or disagree with your post. I have had long discussions with my doctor – we are on very good terms. I had COVID during the first year and long before the vaccine. Though he initially recommended that I get the vaccine, he admits now that it probably did not improve my chances (immune system that produced antibodies so that I never spread the virus or had any symptoms) as originally advertised – just that it was the best information that we had at the time. I wonder. The problem I have is that the pharmaceuticals made billions. This is billions above all their costs. Many think that the vaccines were free – not true, the pharmaceuticals charged extra for their expedited effort, and it was paid for from taxpayers’ funds. This was too much incentive, both within the medical community and the government to take advantage of the profits and run (this includes the CDC and anyone else exposed to their lobbyist). Realize that these are the lobbyists that have convinced the US government to allow the advertising of prescriptions drugs to the general public – why would our government allow this. With incentives of billions – I do not trust anyone in the medical profession or government that can profit. I believe that the institutions of the world during the latter-days are not to be trusted. But I also want to get along with responsible people. As a side note I was traveling for work in Asia during SARS and I never got that either, even though I was an American that did not know to wear a mask. I hope that the lawsuit forces the pharmaceuticals to make public all their development, testing and profits (economics) of their involvement in COVID. If nothing else it should allow us to know what happened behind the scenes. The Traveler

I would like to put forward some ideas to the forum – hopefully I will have some input – Hopefully critical input. I will target my ideas toward the principle of Agency. I believe that in order for agency to be valid that the outcomes of any and all possibilities MUST be known. I do not believe that that agency can exist or function in ignorance at any level. It is my conclusion that Satan, will full knowledge of what he was doing determined that he would rather rule in outer darkness (Hell) than exist in heaven with anyone more powerful and able to control anything than him – including The Father. I believe that there are two conflicting principles concerning those in “outer darkness”. Though Satan is not the most powerful being that can exert influence over the realm of outer darkness Satan has control and rule of all beings and is able to dismiss all agency of those in outer darkness. There is an extra bonus for Satan. He acquired great power over all those that opposed him in the first estate (pre-existence) so therefore he delighted in tempting us do to all manner of evil and as consequence have to endure suffering, pain, sorrow, discouragement and unhappiness. I have speculated (not to be doctrine) that Satan hates evil (what we often define as evil) and desired to destroy agency to prevent evil from causing him, as the possible Messiah, to have to suffer (because of agency being allowed). Please note that Satan is incapable of love so I theorize that he has no problem with allowing and causing suffering, pain, sorrow and so on – thinking that if possible he would inflict even more punishments and never allow repentance. I theorize these things because it is the only sense that I can make that Lucifer could fall and that the heavens would weep for him. I do not believe anyone convinced him or taught him but that he figured out his opposition towards G-d all on his own. The Traveler

Hummmmmm -- maybe I whould have better luck training your cat. The Traveler

You greatly underestimate either my teaching abilities or your learning abilities. -- but then you have cats -- it may take more than once or twice. 😉 The Traveler

It is interesting to me that in English we call the machine a vacuum cleaner. In German the translation is “dust sucker”. I think the German term is more logical. There are basically two types of vacuum cleaners that are commercially built. One is what is called a canaster – this vacuum cleaner is designed around powerful suction. The other is usually called an upright. It was discovered that when vacuuming a carpet, that agitating the carpet loosens the dirt in the carpet making it possible to clean with less suction. Also, an agitated carpet cleans more completely that with just suction. The purpose of the vacuum cleaner ought to best indicate the type of vacuum cleaner that ought to be used. A very important physics principle for cleaning with a vacuum cleaner is air flow. In essence, it does not matter how much suction is applied if the air flow is blocked. What is best is to concentrate as much moving air as needed surrounding the dirt to move it into a container. Hard floors need different equipment than carpets. Most beating action for carpets has a rotation action that cleans best when the action movement on the carpet is in a reverse movement – this design is so the person performing the work does not have to walk on the area that has been cleaned. In other words, it is most efficient to vacuum in a reverse motion. The reason I bring all this up is because most of the general public do not know how to vacuum a floor. The Traveler

I know there is a new movie out in the Equalizer series. They have been quite popular – I just think they are a little unrealistic. At least these kind of heroes. Having been in the military, assigned to work with military intelligence and having in the Defense Department for a number of years – anyone expert in their craft are seldom retired while at the pinnacle of their expertise. There is something else – often in the entertainment world the hero takes on many and dispenses of them with little effort. There can be 50 expert bad guys firing on the good guy and missing while the good guy takes out a bad guy with every shot. In reality world none of the elite special teams attack as a single individual with a hand gun. One thing I learned during my military experience – if I am ever in a life-threatening combat situation, I will avoid going it alone – especially with inferior weapons (handgun or anything inferior to my opponent’s weapons). A single individual is no match for a team working together – ever. Even the classic story of David facing Goliath often misses the most important notion that David had divine assistance and that it was that assistance and not David’s exceptional abilities that was the difference. My whole point is that we should never attempt to tackle anything of importance on our own. As much as we think we ought to be up to outstanding tasks – if something is important we should always think in terms of seeking and accepting help. All too often we think to do too many things by ourselves – even when we are giving a calling – it is seldom a good idea to much of anything all on our own. The Traveler

I can go with that - lets call it our feeble attempt at justice. 😁 The Traveler

Just a little note - it is my understanding that after WWII the Department of War became known as the Department of Defense. The Traveler

It is impossible to achieve much in the resemblance of justice in this life – but I do agree most heartly that such is not any reason not to attempt to bring about what bits and pieces of justice that we can. With all that said – I have lost confidence in our current justice system concerning the matters being talked about. I think we should call our system the legal system instead of our justice system. PS thanks for your imput and enjoy this season. The Traveler

I will make a few predictions. No one (person) will be convicted of any wrongdoing. No one (person) that is employed at any pharmacy will lose their position, pension or anything at all. No one (person) that is in any government position (like Fauci) will ever suffer any legal consequences for their actions. Finely, sometime in the future; this era and time of COVID will be called one of the greatest hoaxes and scams of history. The Traveler

I think it is sad (especially among LDS) to define success in terms of worldly achievements – especially money. The second problem is in defining success in terms of others (our children, family or friends). Perhaps the strangest is defining one’s success in terms of heroes – like your favorite sports team, celebrity or following the initial op – tribe association. The flipside of this is the inability to realize the shortcomings of ourselves or those in our tribe – or until your enemy does it. I have often thought about determining my personal successes. I hold two patents from work, but the reality is that the patents were not really my ideas but came as inspiration from a source outside of myself. I cannot take credit for something that is not mine. I mentioned what I am thinking about success to my wife, and she said that I am an amazing husband – but the truth is that she is an amazing wife that makes me a better husband. I am thinking that determining personal success is a trap similar to humility. The more you think you are a master of it the more you are failing at it. And if you think you have failed – it is likely that you have. The one thing I believe; is that if you love someone unselfishly – that truly is one thing in which you have indeed succeeded. The Traveler

I am very impressed with your logic – the way many liberals look at abortion we should be able to include any birth and the child being adopted outside of any consent from the mother. I have long had the idea that abortion is not an all or nothing option with only two possibilities. The “Declaration” given by our prophets indicates that all children have the right to be born to parents that love and care for them. The great problems is that a male and female are required to create a human – there are many options that can occur that result in a human life. If there is an abuse, regardless of if it is one or both – justice requires that the abuser be punished. The child – whether born or unborn is always innocent and ought not be punished. But then there are circumstances (including natural circumstances) where there is no survival option for that which is innocent. Beyond all the possibilities – it seems to me that taking the life of the innocent during the 3rd trimester is unnecessary unless it is required to save the life of the mother. I do not understand why such a moral law is opposed by anyone concerned about justice and freedoms within the human species. The Traveler

There are a lot of things that we do not know about our pre-existence. There is an event horizon that prevents us from empirically knowing or discovering anything about our pre-existence. I see our pre-existence connected to the origins of our solar system and even the universe. In science there are event horizons that have generated a great deal of speculation. The most famous of these scientific speculations is the Big Bang Theory. Astrophysicists have hung a great deal of their ideas of the origin of things based on the Big Bang Theory and with a little more information from the James Webb telescope are now left trying to piece back together something that makes sense. Lucifer is an enigma to me. I am unable to make sense of him from the bits and pieces that we are given in revelation. Part of my problem has to do with the relationship between our Father in Heaven and Lucifer (including his followers). Our Father in Heaven would have known such intelligence would rebel. The term perdition means a state of total and complete ruin. Why would our Father give spiritual birth and life to any intelligence that would ruin themselves – complete ruin of their intelligence light and spiritual truth and justice? Though I have some ideas – it is all speculation. I would love to discuss such speculations – but oddly speculations are the most difficult things to discuss it would seem, without offending someone. If anyone is interested – and it would appear from the presentation of this post that my brilliant and respected friend @mikbone (perhaps others) are up to a challenge. The Traveler

One comment – my personal logic and interpretation of scripture. There is a stark difference between agency and freewill. Because agency is a divine gift from G-d it is an external power granted to man as a gift. Whereas freewill is an inner characteristic that is one of the primary distinctions of an individual’s individuality. I am of the belief that agency is the power to make one’s will an eternal reality. With this understanding and definition – Satan has lost his agency that was initially given to him by G-d. This is because Satan desired and still desires to destroy the agency of the children of G-d (especially those that covenant with G-d) and bind them to his will making them captive and in bondage to him. This is why those that do not keep the covenants of G-d have not other option but to become captive to the will of Satan. I also speculate that his intent to captivate others of necessity requires that he lie concerning all things associated with him – which is why he became the “Father” of lies. The state of lying is itself a bondage which is why the agency of Satan is a lie of his own making – thus a lie to which he must first convince himself. The Traveler

The first offence of Satan was to rebel against G-d and the primary offense of that rebellion was an effort to destroy the agency of man. Moses 4:3 A few things of note: 1. Satan sought to destroy the agency of man. 2. Agency is a gift from G-d 3. All that followed Satan and did not hearken unto the “voice” of G-d became captive to Satan and lost their agency that G-d had given them. Being captive to someone else’s will is the opposite of agency. (See 2Nephi 2:11) The Traveler

Season’s Greetings @vort CS Lewis has been an evolutionary force in my thinking – especially concerning Satan and his fallen angles. However, I have struggled with Satan and his followers as the traditional evil character that was once a barrier or bringer of light. From latter-day scripture and modern revelation, we learn that the problem of Lucifer was his opposition towards agency. The only logical reason to be against allowing agency is the problem of those exercising agency to embrace darkness and cause problems for others. But this is exactly what Satan did. G-d was able to cure all the Satan did to hurt others but G-d was not able to cure what Satan and his angles did to themselves. I have mitigated this logical flaw that not allowing agency prevents others from falling into evil darkness with the understanding that whatever evil one inflicts on others can be overcome by the rather simple process of forgiveness and mercy. It would appear (at least to me) that the real problem with darkness that is brought upon by opposing agency is not what it does to others but rather what it does to those the embrace such spiritual folly. And that the greatest offense to oneself is to attempt to deny others their agency. I have postulated that denying agency requires a lie to convince oneself that other’s “evil” folly is the prime source of damage that other’s can inflict upon us – but in reality, it would seem that evil is best defined by that which we inflict upon ourselves for which there is no cure without our forgiveness and mercy towards not just others but more so for ourselves. The Traveler

This was my last post on this thread. I was somewhat incorrect in statement #1. Trump actually did bring back some lost jobs. Strange that no one in politics seems to be happy about it. The never Trumpers will not even recognize this. #2 should concern everyone – This was one of the greatest failure of Trump that his ardent supporters refuse to recognize. #4 Should be a wakeup call to everyone. Both the Republican and Democratic parties are destroying our form of government. That one is more advanced than the other is of little reason to believe there is a political solution. I would also note that Trump did not get along with his own administration and there is no (no being relative) support from his vice president. I would add one more thing – I did not realize how quickly the USA would deteriorate under Democratic control of the Executive and legislative branches of government. I also did not realize how divided the Republicans were in the House. Obviously Trump is not smart enough to understand he needs a team to drain the DC swamp. The Traveler

Season’s Greetings @JohnsonJones : I have posted previously about my understanding of “Agency”, freewill and justice. As I understand “Agency” we are the singular determent of our eternal destiny. Nothing is forced upon us without our exercise of agency (my understanding). This would mean that everything happens to un in mortality is something to which we individually agreed to and planned for in the pre-existence. Because of our agency – I do not believe that we can blame G-d for anything. Because of our agency – I do not believe we are living out G-d’s plan for our destiny. Rather I believe that we are living out our own plan (allowed, gifted and supported by G-d) for our destiny – remember that we exercised our agency to participate in the Divine Plan of Salvation. We have the ability to make eternal reality out of our agency – the Divine Plan of Salvation is specifically designed to fulfill what we are determined to accomplish. What happens to us in this mortal existence is not random, unfair, unjust or beyond what we are capable of dealing with. (See 1Nephi 3:7) Also that the fulfillment of our agency is not sufficient in this life only but is completed after we die (See Alma 40:6) The Traveler

If you live in Utah, the best place to get the Turkey rolls are at Reams. Outside of Utah – good luck. Most other stores try to modify the rolls and upsell them. For those that do not live in Utah - Reams is a rather odd store ran by an odd family. The founder has died and left stores to each of their kids (I do not think that they all get along all that well - but I do not know – just a guess). Each store has its own kind of flavor. The one I shop has the best made in store bakery. It is also the best store to get Wheat Check cereal and canned apricots that I use to make a tart sauce for my home-made wheat waffles rather than syrup. As a side note – there are other turkey roll options, but I think Norbest is the best – especially for the price. I believe that the Norbest turkey rolls cook up better (moist and tender) than a whole turkey and any one can carve them. The Traveler