Traveler

There is a big problem with the definition of infinite.  As a mathematical construct – I do not think infinite can be applied directly to anything that is real.  I also do not believe that random is a real construct.  Everything in this universe, as we are capable of understanding it, is by all definitions finite.  For example, we say the universe is isotropic – that could not possibly be true if the universe is infinite.  This logic applies to an infinite atonement in the same manner – it would make the atonement indescribable (which is another word for meaningless).  It is my opinion that when we talk about an infinite atonement is because we are incapable of understanding the boundaries of what the atonement is capable of.
Therefore it is pointless to attempt to limit the atonement to anything we can understand or describe. 
 
The Traveler

D&C 19:6-12 Gives a pertinent definition to the words endless and eternal.  The same likely applies to the word infinite.
I think that Jesus Christ’s Atonement applies to those pre-mortal spirits that heard the question, “Who shall I send?” - Abraham 3:27.
Of course, this could lead one to assume that there might be an infinite amount of infinite atonements.
Where was there ever a son without a father? and where was there ever a father without first being a son? Whenever did a tree or anything spring into existence without a progenitor? - History, 1838–1856, volume F-1 [1 May 1844–8 August 1844], p. 103, The Joseph Smith Papers, accessed June 16, 2024, https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1838-1856-volume-f-1-1-may-1844-8-august-1844/109
🎵 If you could hie to kolob 🎵 
♾️
 

Greetings and welcome to this forum @HaggisShuu :
I am of pioneer heritage and goodly parents and in the waning years of fatherhood, grand fatherhood and great grand fatherhood and on this Sabbath – Well wishes to all for Father’s Day.
We all have sinned and are in need of repentance.  From my experience and what I was taught I would offer as advice - that advice I received in my youth on how a Latter-day Saint can deal with the temptations of the evil one.  This was brought to bear while at the age of 17 (Vietnam era) I joined the army reserves.  Defenses against a superior enemy need to be carefully prepared and planned.    In scripture it is likened to taking upon you the whole armer of G-d.
Number 1.  I was taught to select a favorite hymn to memorize and sing to myself during dark and difficult times.  The hymn I selected was of importance to my grandfather on his mission to New Zealand over 100 years ago.  It is the hymn, “Oh My Father”.  To this day, I still rely on this hymn to draw near and call upon the spirit when things are in need – it has become so sacred I often cannot sing it without being overcome.  I suggest you select a hymn of most importance to you.
Number 2. Have a favorite scripture to quote to yourself in your mind.  I have used many scriptures – my first was 1Corinthians 13.  Lately I have been using Doctrine and Covenants 132:5.  I like having available a short scripture that can help me quickly focus.
I have used numbers 1 & 2 in circumstances when I am ambushed or surprised by the advisory and I need something to help we quickly focus and react before I become pinned down, hopeless and overcome by the advisory’s assault.  Especially when I have made a mistake and wronged someone – this can help get back on track – bringing back the spirit to guide you to what to do next.
Number 3. Is for longer term planning, preparations and training.  It is a two-part prayer.  One in the morning and one in the evening.  The morning (or beginning of action) prayer you discuss with Father in Heaven your thoughts, plans and intentions for the day.  I suggest that you be honest and open with your desires and intensions.   For example, tell your Father in Heaven you plan to avoid temptations of pornography and if something is not avoided – your plan to escape the temptation.   Ask if your plan is good or if other things need consideration.  Explain your expected outcome and ask for his assistance. (Point – this need not apply to only temptations but anything you desire to accomplish – I have utilized this method for problem at my professional workplace.)
The second part, the evening or task faced – report in prayer.  In your prayer, again. be honest and report directly and fully your successes and failures.  Explain in detail what happened.  Be thankful for your successes and acknowledge your failures.  Ask G-d for help where you need help and for recognition for your efforts.  Ask what you can do to improve and for G-d assistance to see beyond to things that you have missed.
These are things that have helped me many times.  It may be needful for you to personalize these things to your circumstances.  I have witnessed success every time I have employed these things – I have also seen success as others have employed these things.  I believe that with G-d and through the spirit – all things are possible.
 
The Traveler

Maybe. But I see MGTOW as something far more insidious. Like feminism itself, MGTOW's foundational assumptions and claims are not completely specious; on the contrary, many such claims are exactly on the mark. This fact makes MGTOW, like feminism, more dangerous rather than more true.
It's easy to see the excesses and evils of feminism. Just look around. It's not as easy to see the evils of MGTOW, because our society is not yet conditioned to look for them. We may be with MGTOW today at the point that feminism was with the US population in the 1960s, with a lot of people nodding and saying, "You know, they have a point." Feminism has proven to be one of the most malignant societal cancers of our time; much of the corruption and decadence of today's United States can be laid at feminism's door. MGTOW, if left unchecked and unchallenged, will be as cancerous as feminism, and might well complete the evil that feminism began: The dissolution of the relationship between men and women, and the resulting utter destruction of the family. This is and always has been feminism's ultimate goal. Honestly, MGTOW is no different.
This is a bitter pill for me. I recognize the truths that MGTOW preaches, and some part of my mind and spirit rejoices that, finally, someone is willing to point and state openly that the emperor has no clothes. But mainstream MGTOWism is not merely a rejection of western feminism; it is a dismissal of the feminine altogether, a proclamation that women are nothing but vaginas to be used at will but never bonded to. Ironic, really. Modern feminism glorifies women as of inherent, intrinsic worth, requiring no other condition besides a vagina to be revered and protected, while MGTOW accepts the value of women as being that same vagina, and nothing more.
It's easy to say that feminism brought MGTOW on itself, but that's like saying your skin cancer brought on the bone cancer, so good riddance to both. As alluring as MGTOWism might be to many men, it is not the correct response to modern feminism. It is ultimately a furthering of the same evil that feminism represents.
We would never want our daughter or our sister or our wife or our mother to be treated as MGTOW often portrays. If we see women, even feminists, as sisters and daughters, we can perhaps see through MGTOW at what we should really be striving for.

I'm sure he means a "kick your feet up on this" table.
In our house, we just have large square cushion things that are roughly the size and height of a coffee table.  The dog uses them as launchpads as she's coming to say hi to whoever is in a chair.

I did mention the size of my family in the past no?
And I get to make structural / mechanical decisions.  Colors / furniture etc. is out of my control.

I am sorry I did not word that correctly – I meant support for the Abraham Accords that Donald Trump initiated.  My concern is that as soon as some see the name of Donald Trump (or Biden) – they do not connect to anything else.
 
The Traveler

I am sorry I did not word that correctly – I meant support for the Abraham Accords that Donald Trump initiated.  My concern is that as soon as some see the name of Donald Trump (or Biden) – they do not connect to anything else.
 
The Traveler

As I understand Trump did not break the law with the NDI - nor any of the moving funds around (which is very common in the business world and during presidential campaigns – as per the example of Bernie Sanders that became a multi-millionaire running for president).  The problem was in covering up everything that was done.  Like Hillary using a private server for email, deleting the email and destroying the hard drive on her computer.
What bothers me the most about all this with Hunter is the 50 (or whatever the number was) that signed a letter (used by Pres, Biden in the 2020 presidential debates) testifying or giving witness as government security officials, that the Hunter laptop was a fake planted by Russia to create disinformation to corrupt the election.  I find it interesting that the federal justice department (from which many of those officials were employed) entered the laptop as evidence and the defense did not object with a reference to the signed letter from the bunch of government information experts – but there is no ramification or discipline towards those officials for falsely misleading the citizens during an election (I thought that was one of the main counts that Trump was found guilty of.
I wonder if our politics are digging holes that this country will never be able to crawl out of.
 
The Traveler

I think the more likely outcome is Biden commutes his son's sentence.

This is what happens when you weaponize the law for politics.
Biden won’t pardon his son now, but before he leaves office he will.  And there are more lawsuits to follow… I bet he already made Kamala promise to pardon him if he dies in office.

I totally missed this thread until just now, but I was actually pondering similar things yesterday.  Years ago we acquired a massively well built solid wood bookcase from a moving ward member.  It would have been heirloom quality, but it had not been well cared for.  Still, it was probably the most sturdy thing we owned, and it did 15 years in our basement carrying heavy basement things.  Time to part with it.  Even though it could easily outlive me, it's too damaged for Goodwill/DI, and I know of nobody who wants a heavy ugly bookcase, especially when walmart sells cheap particle board things for under thirty bucks.  
I thought about how to dispose of the massive sturdy thing.  I'd injure myself trying to kick it apart.  Dropping it from a helicopter would just dent the ground.  The reciprocating saw would do it, but it had plenty of metal holding it together which I might hit with the blade.  I'm in my 50's, back problems, 3 shoulder surgeries behind me.  Getting too old for this stuff. 
So I picked up the old 8 lb forged steel sledge hammer I inherited from my father, and in 5 minutes I had a glorified pile of toothpicks.   Honestly, lifting the heavy pieces into the garbage cans was the hardest part.
 

Seems like James Earl Jones was portraying his near-namesake Jim Jones in beckoning a young woman to her death to illustrate the riddle of steel. Thulsa's solution to the riddle of steel—"flesh is stronger than steel"—ends up being something like: Control, not physicality, is power. Or in more LDS-friendly terminology: Being a thing to act is more powerful than simply being a thing to be acted upon.

The answer was in the movie.  But few recognize it because it is not given as a question until Conan meets Thulsa.
Notice that "the riddle of steel" is never a question.  It is a name only.  One cannot answer a question when no question has been asked. No one actually asks the question until Conan confronts Thulsa. 
A "riddle" is not a question/answer like a catechism.  It is a mystery proposed for conjecture.
We tend to think of tools as being powerful.  But who made that tool?  A man.  Who uses that tool for a purpose?  A man.  
What is man without the sword?  Weak.  What is the sword without the man?  A piece of metal.  Combine the metal with the will of a man commanding the strength of his arm and together, they are formidable.
That understanding is the answer to the riddle of steel.

This reminds me of C.S. Lewis' words about the grass field never producing wheat.

Thanks – I appreciate your contribution.  I was born of goodly parents – actually 5 generations of exceptional parents.  I grew up thinking every family was like mine.  My parents would often refer to your picture but were adamant that it is not about where you came from, where you have been or even where you are – the only thing that is important and brings joy is the direction you are going.
I was also taught to never draw a line between good and evil – the reason is that we tend to think all is well as long as we stay on the good side of the line.  The great problem with that kind of thinking is that we tend to end up as close to the line as possible without crossing it.  And yet, if we happen to cross that line by the slightest bit we realize that things do not change so much and are just as okay as before – thus we end up inadvertently redrawing our line between good and evil – moving towards evil.
When we talk about such things, I become disappointed with the idea of perfect because it seems to me to be more about the destination than the journey.  Rather I like to think good is the direction into the light and to travel in any other direction is evil.  I attempt to employ this thinking when it comes to those struggling with dark things, weather it is the WOW, chastity, pride, LGBTQ+ or whatever – welcome to the path towards the light.  Let us all work towards the light and take the next step together.  
 
The Traveler

Every once in a while, there seems to me to be a connection between things I thought completely unrelated.  Just a little background.   I am not a visionary person – I am more of a, have to see to believe person.  My wife has wanted to remodel our home for a long time – I could not see the point.  The house is a wonderful home.  The tile in the entry, front hall and kitchen my wife and I put down ourselves decades ago.  The cabinets in the kitchen we stained ourselves and added soft close hardware.  I like our house – it is a good house that our children were raised in and our youngest was born after we moved in.  We have been here 35+ years making upgrades.  But the wife wanted changes.
We are most of the way through this remodel.  I am starting to realize that remodeling a good home is a lot like a Latter-day Saint repenting.  Prior to starting all this the wife has been trying to convince me that a remodel would be a good thing.  It did not make a lot of sense to me, especially considering all the blood, sweat and tears shed doing all the little things we have done over the years.   She was talking about tearing down all the things we had worked so hard to do together.  She has been watching HGTV for years and now is telling me that we can open things up and let in a lot of light.  Then again things are not so important to me – so if it is important to her – let the remodeling begin.
By now, readers are likely wondering, how is remodeling like an LDS repentance?  We are told all the time that we should repent.  Why?  We work at our callings, we attend the temple, we volunteer for service, we don’t just try to be good neighbors – we love our neighborhood.  We don’t break the word of wisdom – I don’t even drink caffeine soda drinks.  We work out – we have repented of all the mistakes made raising our children – What’s left to repent of?  Ya, this is how I felt about remodeling our home.  It is okay the way it is – not just okay, it is a great home – I could live here till I die.  My wife has different ideas.
The first thing we had to do was get permits from the city.  They require that we hire an architect and a structural engineer to make sure everything is according to code. What happens next is to tear down everything on our main level – including a few walls.  When load bearing walls come down special beams have to be put into place and supports built in all the way down to the basement foundation.
Sometimes good LDS (Christians) have to be advised about improving through repentance.  Sometimes such advice is taken badly and those being advised call such reminders – shaming.  And anytime repentance takes place – we have to remove all the things getting in the way of repenting correctly.  Tearing things apart tends to make life difficult – even a bit miserable.  One example is that we only had one complete bathroom in the house, and it was in the basement as far from the bedrooms as possible.  There were things that still worked in some bathrooms, but a toilet did not work in one, sinks in another and the drains for everything but the bathtub (that no one ever uses) in another.  The kitchen and laundry are trashed but we have a makeshift in the basement.  Furniture is all moved to the garage or spare bedrooms (we do not know where anything is).  Living becomes somewhat inconvenient – just like repenting.
As we took down walls, we discovered lots of problems we did not know about – like some serious electrical problems and a leaky sewer pipe cultivating mold.  Just like repentance – once we get into it, we discover things that we did not realize needed fixing.  Nothing turns out to be as easy, cost or take the time we planned.
We just finished the primer coat of paint, and I am beginning to see things come together.  The wall of windows let in an amazing amount of light and the view of the mountains is worth it.  There is so much more light.  The wife removed the back staircase.  I kind of miss it, it is inconvenient to go all the way around to the front stairs but then be back stairs were not code.  Same with repentance – once we begin to see what is possible with change – we realize what a good thing it is.
Mostly we think of repenting to get rid of sins.  Martin Luther’s idea of repentance was to turn around and obtain a new point of view.  I am beginning to realize that we do not have to sin to repent.  We can repent just to make things better and get closer to G-d.
 
The Traveler

Agreed.  The painting doesn't draw a line between good and evil.  That line is a human soul, at a slice of time in it's journey, and it depicts the negative impact that sin has on that individual soul, on that particular day.  It doesn't judge, it measures how heavy a load of sin might look or feel like.
 
Also agreed.  No matter where our line might be drawn on that painting, it's always possible and important to keep moving towards the light.
 
Look at those black tendril things!  I recognize those.  Look at how much closer to the light someone might go, and there's still a couple of those tendrils, just as present as they've always been.  It's like "Look at how far I've come Lord, and yet still this thing still darkens my soul, seeming just as powerful as it ever was.  Oh when will I be rid of it?"   I recognize that image.  Others tell me they recognize those tendrils.  They're the reason people can progress, but end up falling back into sin.  I know a person who has in their fourth decade of being "clean and sober".  They still think of themselves as an alcoholic, just one drink away from going back to the old days.  It's a mindset for someone who recognizes and continues to battle against the tendrils, as they continue to move towards the light.
Cool painting, isn't it!

I was being sarcastic and attempting to point out why borders are important for a country.  I would also contend that we have all policies and laws needed to open our borders for legal immigration (temporary or permanent) to fulfill all needs of any industry or enterprise.   What I believe is broken with our border and immigration situation is more about not following the law or avoiding the law than enforcing the laws and working within the laws.  This is why I am greatly concerned with a conclusive immigration policy – I want to know exactly what that would entail and why it cannot work the way things are currently defined by the law.
Let me give a kind of example of how laws get screw up.  A while back I read about two guys that got seriously injured while together, they each held a side of the mower in order to use the lawnmower to trim some hedges – and one slipped and lost their grip.  Obviously, if the lawnmower had a deficiency that caused harm to the users – the company should be responsible.  But a company should never be accountable for idiots that abuse the intent of things.   But the lawsuit ruled in favor of the idiots because the manufacturer did not specifically communicate that their lawnmower should not be used in that manner.
If anyone desires to bring laborers into our country – they are responsible for those workers and if they require medical attention those that employ such workers should be required to provide insurance.  They are responsible for the duration of the visa.  In my mind there is no reason to hold lower and middle-class taxpayers responsible for non-citizens’ health care (and other) needs.  There is an element in our country to hide and keep secrets from citizens – especially taxpaying citizens concerning what is intended when laws are changed.
As a side note – I believe it would be beneficial for youth in this country to enter (at entry levels) of labor in such a manner to allow children to learn to work without abusing them – otherwise they will grow up thinking that it is abusive to have to work.
 
The Traveler

Thanks – I appreciate your contribution.  I was born of goodly parents – actually 5 generations of exceptional parents.  I grew up thinking every family was like mine.  My parents would often refer to your picture but were adamant that it is not about where you came from, where you have been or even where you are – the only thing that is important and brings joy is the direction you are going.
I was also taught to never draw a line between good and evil – the reason is that we tend to think all is well as long as we stay on the good side of the line.  The great problem with that kind of thinking is that we tend to end up as close to the line as possible without crossing it.  And yet, if we happen to cross that line by the slightest bit we realize that things do not change so much and are just as okay as before – thus we end up inadvertently redrawing our line between good and evil – moving towards evil.
When we talk about such things, I become disappointed with the idea of perfect because it seems to me to be more about the destination than the journey.  Rather I like to think good is the direction into the light and to travel in any other direction is evil.  I attempt to employ this thinking when it comes to those struggling with dark things, weather it is the WOW, chastity, pride, LGBTQ+ or whatever – welcome to the path towards the light.  Let us all work towards the light and take the next step together.  
 
The Traveler

Thanks – I appreciate your contribution.  I was born of goodly parents – actually 5 generations of exceptional parents.  I grew up thinking every family was like mine.  My parents would often refer to your picture but were adamant that it is not about where you came from, where you have been or even where you are – the only thing that is important and brings joy is the direction you are going.
I was also taught to never draw a line between good and evil – the reason is that we tend to think all is well as long as we stay on the good side of the line.  The great problem with that kind of thinking is that we tend to end up as close to the line as possible without crossing it.  And yet, if we happen to cross that line by the slightest bit we realize that things do not change so much and are just as okay as before – thus we end up inadvertently redrawing our line between good and evil – moving towards evil.
When we talk about such things, I become disappointed with the idea of perfect because it seems to me to be more about the destination than the journey.  Rather I like to think good is the direction into the light and to travel in any other direction is evil.  I attempt to employ this thinking when it comes to those struggling with dark things, weather it is the WOW, chastity, pride, LGBTQ+ or whatever – welcome to the path towards the light.  Let us all work towards the light and take the next step together.  
 
The Traveler

I suppose I can understand why folks who have led mostly sinless lives might see things like this.
 
For those of us who have more than a passing acquaintance with the horrible things that Lucifer can instill in our hearts and souls, it’s not an especially useful illustration of how repentance looks.
 
Here is a painting called "Sanctification", done by Amy Finder in 1973.  

I'm not sure if these are the artists words or the church's words, but:
"Only through the marvelous Atonement of the Savior is it possible to strip away layers of pain, sorrow, and guilt—sin’s treacherous landscape. When we become a willing participant in the process of sanctification, the burdens of the soul are replaced with the light of hope—a refinement and purification of the soul through Christ, with joy accompanying the process."
Yeah, the “Home remodeler sinners“ get to be on the right hand 10% of the painting.  The world looks different from that black line where we are worried about the cracks in our foundation, and wondering if the roof will stay on the next time the wind blows hard.
 
https://history.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/jan-fisher?lang=eng&fbclid=IwAR1Pimc4m1kQSb-0s-qNn_YeOjjFwQ3zfT0PoRIb7UYl3BlCkkKdcR3AyI8#1

Good points. Agree totally here. 

Every once in a while, there seems to me to be a connection between things I thought completely unrelated.  Just a little background.   I am not a visionary person – I am more of a, have to see to believe person.  My wife has wanted to remodel our home for a long time – I could not see the point.  The house is a wonderful home.  The tile in the entry, front hall and kitchen my wife and I put down ourselves decades ago.  The cabinets in the kitchen we stained ourselves and added soft close hardware.  I like our house – it is a good house that our children were raised in and our youngest was born after we moved in.  We have been here 35+ years making upgrades.  But the wife wanted changes.
We are most of the way through this remodel.  I am starting to realize that remodeling a good home is a lot like a Latter-day Saint repenting.  Prior to starting all this the wife has been trying to convince me that a remodel would be a good thing.  It did not make a lot of sense to me, especially considering all the blood, sweat and tears shed doing all the little things we have done over the years.   She was talking about tearing down all the things we had worked so hard to do together.  She has been watching HGTV for years and now is telling me that we can open things up and let in a lot of light.  Then again things are not so important to me – so if it is important to her – let the remodeling begin.
By now, readers are likely wondering, how is remodeling like an LDS repentance?  We are told all the time that we should repent.  Why?  We work at our callings, we attend the temple, we volunteer for service, we don’t just try to be good neighbors – we love our neighborhood.  We don’t break the word of wisdom – I don’t even drink caffeine soda drinks.  We work out – we have repented of all the mistakes made raising our children – What’s left to repent of?  Ya, this is how I felt about remodeling our home.  It is okay the way it is – not just okay, it is a great home – I could live here till I die.  My wife has different ideas.
The first thing we had to do was get permits from the city.  They require that we hire an architect and a structural engineer to make sure everything is according to code. What happens next is to tear down everything on our main level – including a few walls.  When load bearing walls come down special beams have to be put into place and supports built in all the way down to the basement foundation.
Sometimes good LDS (Christians) have to be advised about improving through repentance.  Sometimes such advice is taken badly and those being advised call such reminders – shaming.  And anytime repentance takes place – we have to remove all the things getting in the way of repenting correctly.  Tearing things apart tends to make life difficult – even a bit miserable.  One example is that we only had one complete bathroom in the house, and it was in the basement as far from the bedrooms as possible.  There were things that still worked in some bathrooms, but a toilet did not work in one, sinks in another and the drains for everything but the bathtub (that no one ever uses) in another.  The kitchen and laundry are trashed but we have a makeshift in the basement.  Furniture is all moved to the garage or spare bedrooms (we do not know where anything is).  Living becomes somewhat inconvenient – just like repenting.
As we took down walls, we discovered lots of problems we did not know about – like some serious electrical problems and a leaky sewer pipe cultivating mold.  Just like repentance – once we get into it, we discover things that we did not realize needed fixing.  Nothing turns out to be as easy, cost or take the time we planned.
We just finished the primer coat of paint, and I am beginning to see things come together.  The wall of windows let in an amazing amount of light and the view of the mountains is worth it.  There is so much more light.  The wife removed the back staircase.  I kind of miss it, it is inconvenient to go all the way around to the front stairs but then be back stairs were not code.  Same with repentance – once we begin to see what is possible with change – we realize what a good thing it is.
Mostly we think of repenting to get rid of sins.  Martin Luther’s idea of repentance was to turn around and obtain a new point of view.  I am beginning to realize that we do not have to sin to repent.  We can repent just to make things better and get closer to G-d.
 
The Traveler

If we listen to the political rhetoric of the two presidential candidates, the unaware and uninformed would easily come to your conclusion.  Considering the historical policies of both political parties’ illegal immigration has been a problem for many decades.  Both parties claim that our immigration laws are “broken” and need reform.  But no one has clearly stated what is broken and exactly what needs to be changed to reform what is wrong.  Trump, as a political and DC outsider is actually the first president that I am aware of that has made an effort to enforce immigration laws and prevent them from being broken - thus a wall.  Biden on the other hand has done the exact opposite – in that he has prevented immigration laws from being enforced.  I speculate that this is because he has sold (for wealth) out to the drug cartels and other foreign interests held mostly by enemies to our country.   I do believe it is an act of treason for elements in our government to refuse to enforce our immigration laws.
However, I am also of the mind that we are seeing a fulfillment of Book of Mormon prophesy concerning our society and government that was founded on principles of divine covenant to serve G-d.  I am concerned that many of our freedoms that I enjoyed since my youth will be lost to future generations and that only those that respect the restoration of the priesthood in these last-days will find divine protection according to prophesy.
 
The Traveler