Misshalfway

This is beautiful. Love it! It resonates with how I feel in general. It's interesting in therapy. I'll direct the man to this in one way or another highlighting the needs for emotional intercourse as well as sexual intercourse or how one enhances the other. The reactions I get are often the same. "Therapy is always slanted towards the needs of the woman." It makes me feel I'm not understanding the man or not communicating in a way that the man understands. I'm sure that in some cases the man just doesn't want to let go of his selfishness and would rather demand or blame instead. Thank you for helping my confusion.

Thank your husband for his contributions! I really appreciate it. And thank you for your comments and comparisons. I think it hits on the universal needs I think most men are asking for. Stuff that is not pathology. But they, like you said, find it hard to talk about. I think I am getting closer to understanding.

So.. maybe what you are saying is that the "need" I see in therapy isn't a universal need amongst all men. That healthy men don't need their woman to "perform". That it's just some individual manifestation of insecurity I'd need to address with the person. Yes?

So....outside of therapy land, what makes men feel the most comfortable in talking about this fear with the women they love? I know men often feel criticized and shamed the most from the women in their lives. Brene Brown talks about this a lot in her work on shame. In the case of my bosses...calling them jerkheads is the easy thing. Not drifting into my yucky pleasing behaviors is my work and I've got a hold of that. Finding the way of affirming the man ( either professionally or privately) without losing self, that seems to be more elusive. I'd love to hear men ( and women) comment on these difficult dynamics.

I think what you are describing is when the negotiations and "communicating" works. What you describe is a process of listening and compromising. And retaining the long view so you keep things in perspective. Which is all wonderful. I would only add what I said in another post. That couples do fairly well and negotiating. But just coming to a meeting of the minds often results in frustration because deeper unmet needs are not expressed or addressed. I'm obviously talking away from my original questions. I guess just expressing some observations from what I see and what the scientific research says about the efficacy of behavioral approaches. It's a digression. I apologize.

Thank you for this. In general, I think couples do pretty well getting to this place. It's what happens next that is problematic. They assume that "getting on the same page" means agreeing on some compromise on some behavioral agreement. Sometimes that means the couple agrees and hides their frustrations just to make peace. OR they end up in some frustrating impasse over sexual behavior.

You've outlined the "confusion" well. The part of the pattern you might be missing is what Leah mentioned. What happens when she folds the shirts AND buys a new teddy AND tells him he is handsome and sexy and he still walks away feeling unwanted sexually. And when asked wishes she were more "orgasmic" in her expressions of interest. My guess is that he needs to see evidence that his prowess his "worked". And that perhaps its too hard for him to access and acknowledge insecurity or fear he has about his appeal to a woman sexually. It don't know men really feel about talking about this. But if they could and if their women could sort of rescue them or sooth them, she wouldn't need to compromise behaviorally. At least that is the theory.... Can you help me understand what it is like for a man when these additional parts are factored in?

Thank you, MR. Shorty! You have brought me back to myself. (if that makes sense.) I read David Schnarch a few years ago. His books line my shelves. But I think I need to go read them again. I think you are onto the answer I've been looking for. It feels so right that what I'm seeing and hearing is this triggering of "something must be wrong with me". YES! I see the fear and feel unsatisfied with the demands for more erotic behavior. What I need to do is work on the differentiation! I'm with you too that Schnarch is some deep water. :) I love what I read but I'm not sure I know yet how to translate it all into stuff that clients can apply. Thank you again!

Sorry. I must have worded that poorly. I've meant to highlight the confusion that happens on both sides. I think I understand the confusion or frustration on the female side simply because I am female. I seek to understand what it's like for men. That is all.

Is that what happens? Do men get confused if they don't see the woman's "interest" manifest in orgasmic ways? Is it that men need the sexual manifestations in order to know they are ok? Is that why, as Zion was expressing, that non sexual nurturing isn't enough? Again, I get confused when I see the wife IS interested in sex, and her man, and engaging in sex twice a week but still gets interpreted as not wanting him. My female brain wants to protest and defend. Does she have to become something more sexually exaggerated in order to convince the man he is sexually desirable? I don't feel comfortable asking a woman to engage in sexual behavior she isn't comfortable with to solve the problem.

Hm. That might be an over simplification, but I do feel echoes of this in what I see. I should add that I feel this behavior gets judged as being prudish or something similar. (IMO happens with both men and women in the church and my personal preference is to help them both feel more comfortable with their sexual selves without worrying about impurity.) But I don't know that this is always the case. I think that disinterest in the lustful IS in fact a manifestation of sexual purity.

This is a great point. I often see that women are less comfortable with sexually based flirting because of their strivings to live in sexual purity. Other times my wives have shut down. Their offerings have been rejected and so their offerings become less open and less proactive.

Dravin... I couple the two because that is how it's described to me by my clients. This is the content of the way they express their concerns. He says, "She doesn't love me. She doesn't show me she loves me." She said, "But I do. I fold your shirts and make you dinners and comfort you when you've had a bad day. " He says, "Yes, but that's not enough. I need you to want me sexually." I'm trying to understand that dismissal of the non-sexual offerings and what need isn't getting met. Clients don't know. They know they are hurting but it's hard to articulate basic needs. This is hard for both genders, but I'm focusing on what I hear from men in this thread. Hey! England is nice this time of year. Yes. I hear this. Makes perfect sense and is absolutely valid. What I don't understand is the need for her "desire" to appear more erotic than she is comfortable expressing. If she's not reciprocating, I can address that with her. If he is dismissing her, rejecting her offerings, or otherwise unable to receive, that is what I want to understand. I appreciate your clarification about gender. Yes, I understand that defenses are not gender specific. In this thread, I'm focusing only on the male gender and more specifically the problems I seem to run into while just being strong in front of men. Since I started this new profession, I've had four male bosses. All four behave in basically the same way. I find myself reacting by hiding my strengths and opinions, stroking their ego, and other equally gross pleasing placating behaviors.

Thank you, MOE. I was hoping you would comment on this. :) I'm going to go mull this over.

I'm sorry to hear your marriage ended, drham3rd. That must have been a very difficult loss after 33 years. But I appreciate your statements in paragraph one. I loved your statement "allowing me to make love to her fully in all its forms". I don't know that these men are doing that. I think they are intimidated by the courting process and terrified of the potential for rejection. And so instead of bid for what they need, they expect the wife to do it for them in some way or to behave in ways that remove all vulnerability. When she doesn't, they become resentful and blame her. I don't think the men I'm treating now could even articulate what you just said. Many of them have decided that if they have better sex, all their problems in the marriage would go away and all of their needs would be met. Which is obviously why they are in my office. :) Thank you for you input.

My kids are older now so I don't pay much attention to the nursery, but I can testify from my younger years that nursery leaders with boundaries enjoy a much better experience. My guess, IamMe, is that your wording isn't as mean as you think it is. Trust yourself. There is nothing cruel about stating that Mom's need to leave. My kids coaches do it. My kids teachers do it. Parents aren't allowed to listen to the "huddle" directives from the coaches and kids need to know when an assignment is due and hand it in. I think we'll raise more responsible children if we model how to do this....even if we have to model it to each other.

I have never been a man. This isn't news. But I love men. And I say that in the purest sense. But, I'm not sure I understand them all the time and that bothers me. I want to understand more. I want to do better in my practice (i'm a psychotherapist and do a lot of couples counseling) and in my personal life. So, men on this forum? Will you help me? I have two observations I'd like to discuss. 1) In my practice , I hear frequently that men need their women to want them sexually. This seems reasonable enough on its face. But I also hear that she could be the best at lots of other non-sexual nurturing but if it doesn't translate into hot/erotic/passionate expressions in the bedroom, then it isn't enough. From the wife, I often hear "but I do want sex and I do want you! and we have sex all the time." But he can't receive that. It isn't enough and both end up frustrated. I'm trying to understand this better because I often see that attachment needs and sexual needs get fused and confused. But if it is healthy, then perhaps she just isn't showing him she wants him in ways he can interpret. Can you help me understand what is a healthy need and what is not? Can you help me understand better what men are asking for and what need they are trying to fill? Are men trying to capture a sexual fantasy, or is this a lesson women need to learn? 2) Also, I often see that some men are intimidated by strong women. I have a boss right now that quickly puts me down if anything I say references his insecurities. I feel compassion, but his defenses are rather hurtful. Can you help me understand what helps men increase ego strength without becoming a woman who has to diminish herself in order to do it? I'm trying to understand this male ego thing. I don't want to judge it or shame it. I just want to better understand how to help men develop more security without making them feel like they have to be "womanish" to achieve it. And I don't want to have to stop being my best self as a woman or as a female therapist in order to placate the ego into feeling better. Does that make sense? I hope so.

Amen to the posts about PMDD and taking responsibility! You need to set some boundaries. You need to tell her that you require her to go to a doctor and get the hormone piece sorted. And then perhaps require that she get some therapy so she can forge better coping skills than threatenings with forks. I get that PMDD is tough. I've been diagnosed. But this behavior sounds indulgent.

The moment I read your post I KNEW that you did not possess the power of Divination! You don't possess the inner eye! Your soul is a dry as the pages of the books to which you so desperately cleave. Oh....and I see the grim!

Amen. I won't pay to see Jamie Fox either.

I must confess. I'm done with Tom Cruise. He was cute for 10 min, but that's over now. And this might be blasphemy, but I might be done with Morgan Freeman too. He got his teeth done, and its just not the same.

This is MY post! Nobody touch it!

I'll interpret your dreams. If you'll just place the $20 in this basket, we'll get started.

Your happiness is infectious! Thank you for infecting me. Welcome to the site!

I also wanted to say that self love goes a long way. I think the lessons of love are often the hardest fought on the inside of a person. And when society or churches, or family doesn't love us, it hurts. And when it hurts we want to attack or correct the offending party. It's understandable and we all do it regardless of what our circumstances are. But at the end of the day, we can't control the universe or mother in laws. We can't make people understand or love what we ourselves do not understand or love. So, at the end of the day, it isn't about anything but the individual. So Gay folks, start loving yourselves. I'll try to learn how to love myself too. We'll love out there to the degree we love inside here (pointing to my heart). The rest, including your own choices about what you do with your sexual stewardship and the resulting consequences, is between you and God. Just as it is with me and everyone else too.