Is "Reformed Egyptian" a real language?

[Will]

Do people today believe this?

[Guest migu]

if you believe in the Book of Mormon is true, your answer is yes.

if you believe the Book of Mormon is false, your answer is "Probably not" "No" or "I don't care"

if you don't care if its true your answer is probably "I don't care"

if you don't know if its true your answer is probably "I don't know"

Does that help?

[Guest migu]

for the record I know its a real language. Its an old, even unused and forgotten language to be sure. but its real.

[Will]

Thanks, but I wasn't asking whether or not I believe it. =)

I mean absolutely zero disrespect to you or anyone else who believes that it is a real language that was used by humanity. I was told of the story just recently by someone who claimed the story was false and that there is zero evidence for the language's existence. Rather than just taking his word for it, I thought I would do some searching on my own. I thought it would be a good idea to go to the source for information rather than just believing what somebody else said.

[Will]

Thanks.

[lostnfound]

what did you find? is it a real language?

[Hemidakota]

Do people today believe this?

First, welcome to the forum Will. You may face some rather interesting viewpoints on this topic. Second, there are many speculations on how this language came to be.

[My viewpoint] I for one am believer of the people of Joseph was still was living in Egypt and would place Lehi's father in the same vicinity. That being the case, under Professor Nibley studies of the people during that time frame, were experts in metalloid. You will find that the Egyptians were against the practices of foreign religion in their empire. If so, being businessman they were [Josephites], perhaps, did create this reformed short-hand version of Egyptian language to discuss religion topics without being detected among the Egyptians. I would presume that Lehi understood this short-hand language and taught his sons the same.

[Canuck Mormon]

There are many places to get your answer.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

Mormon.org

LDS FAIR Apologetics Homepage

Personally, I believe that the language exists. It might be something else (Olmec, Mayan, whatever). We just don't know what it looks like because we no longer have access to the plates.

[Guest migu]

Thanks, but I wasn't asking whether or not I believe it. =)

Impersonal you address. Not you personally.

I mean absolutely zero disrespect to you or anyone else who believes that it is a real language that was used by humanity. I was told of the story just recently by someone who claimed the story was false and that there is zero evidence for the language's existence. Rather than just taking his word for it, I thought I would do some searching on my own. I thought it would be a good idea to go to the source for information rather than just believing what somebody else said.

No offense taken. Just poking fun. My silly personality. I do appreciate that you're coming here to ask.

[Hemidakota]

Ancient Texts in Support of the Book of Mormon

LDS.org - Ensign Article - I Have a Question

Reformed Egyptian

Many skeptics have declared that, contrary to the claims of the Book of Mormon, there is no such language as "reformed Egyptian." And besides, some add, real Jews wouldn't have used it anyway, since Jews believe Hebrew to be a sacred language, and ancient Jews held Egyptian, the language of their hereditary enemies, to be evil and corrupt. 32The last contention, however, is not true. Not only were ancient Jews capable of using other languages and scripts to write their scriptures, but there is clear evidence that they did precisely that. Specifically, we now know of ancient instances of the writing of Old Testament scriptural passages in Egyptian. 33Furthermore, there is no reason to expect that anything called "reformed Egyptian" would necessarily show up anywhere else, nor that the name "reformed Egyptian" would be familiar to secular scholars, for the Book of Mormon clearly states that "reformed Egyptian" was the Nephites' own term for a complex of script and language that, at least at the end of nearly a millennium of independent linguistic evolution, was unique to them:

And now, behold, we have written this record according to our knowledge, in the characters which are called among us the reformed Egyptian, being handed down and altered by us, according to our manner of speech.

And if our plates had been sufficiently large we should have written in Hebrew; but the Hebrew hath been altered by us also; and if we could have written in Hebrew, behold, ye would have had no imperfection in our record.

But the Lord knoweth the things which we have written, and also that none other people knoweth our language; and because that none other people knoweth our language, therefore he hath prepared means for the interpretation thereof. (Morm. 9:32-34; emphasis mine)

The Book of Mormon never claims that "reformed Egyptian" existed in Egypt; on the contrary, it expressly says "reformed Egyptian" did not exist in Egypt. Therefore, testimony from Egyptologists (or, more frequently, from Egyptological amateurs) about the absence of "reformed Egyptian" from the Nile Valley or the failure of the precise phrase "reformed Egyptian" to show up in their grammar books is fundamentally irrelevant. Besides, "reformed Egyptian" is not necessarily the proper name of a specific language. Languages and scripts are constantly evolving, constantly being modified or "reformed," as anybody who has ever sat down to read the great Old English poem Beowulf or the English poems of Chaucer in the original can surely attest. "Reformed Egyptian" describes, simply, a linguistic system that had changed in an idiosyncratic direction over a thousand years of isolation. by Noel B. Reynolds

[Will]

Migu: no worries =)

Lostnfound: I'm working on it.

Canuck: thanks for the links, I'll check them out. My co-worker mentioned that some of the translation notes had survived and that they were considered a hoax rather than an actual known language. I'll have to look into it thought.

Hemidakota: thanks a ton for the thoughts. I'm curious though, if this was indeed a written language used for an entire millenium, there were undoubtably huge amounts of written material in existence at one time. I was told that not a single piece of archaeological evidence has been found. Is this true?

[Hemidakota]

We have Professor Larry Poulsen whose background is in this field of study. He could help in this area.

I hold a different view on what, where, whom, and why previous civilization was erased by those considered anti-Nephites or against GOD as it was during Chinese empire and the Egyptian Empire. Emperors would erase the previous ones.

[Will]

It's one thing to erase cultural power, traditions, values, and even identity. But to erase all traces of a culture from the earth, especially a culture with over a millenia of history, would be quite a feat, don't you agree?

[Will]

Oops ... hit 'post' too soon. Does Professor Poulsen answer questions on here? I'd be curious to hear what he has to say.

[Jenamarie]

I wish I knew this guy's name , but I follow his blog, and he recently did one on "Reformed Egyptian". It's rather interesting. :)

LDS Doctrine

[NeuroTypical]

It's one thing to erase cultural power, traditions, values, and even identity. But to erase all traces of a culture from the earth, especially a culture with over a millenia of history, would be quite a feat, don't you agree?

You gotta have pretty big britches to claim that you can find out about every single culture that has ever existed on earth at any time in it's multi-millenial history.

Go talk to an archaeologist, and ask them "do you ever find a site and you don't have the faintest clue who those people were or what they were doing or even when they lived?"

LM

[Jenamarie]

You gotta have pretty big britches to claim that you can find out about every single culture that has ever existed on earth at any time in it's multi-millenial history.

Go talk to an archaeologist, and ask them "do you ever find a site and you don't have the faintest clue who those people were or what they were doing or even when they lived?"

LM

Exactly. Just take that "new" Amazon tribe they got pictures of last week. They've never been contacted, we know *zippo* about them, AND THEY'RE STILL ALIVE!! I don't find it difficult at all to believe that entire ancient cultures could/can/have vanished without leaving a trace.

Absense of proof is not proof of absense.

[Hemidakota]

Oops ... hit 'post' too soon. Does Professor Poulsen answer questions on here? I'd be curious to hear what he has to say.

Correct...he is on this forum. There is another but at this time, he is not answering but listening.

[Hemidakota]

It's one thing to erase cultural power, traditions, values, and even identity. But to erase all traces of a culture from the earth, especially a culture with over a millenia of history, would be quite a feat, don't you agree?

Not really....[example] I don't agree that it was the Mayans who built those cities of the plains but rather took over what was the Nephites.

[Will]

Jenamarie: thanks for the link. I don't have time to read through all of it right now, but it looks interesting. From a first glance, though, it seems to be more about showing that the possibility exists rather than any evidence for the claim. Thanks again.

Loudmouth: I agree with you and with Jenamarie that things can certainly be unfound and that it is indeed foolish to try to prove a negative argument (like there is no extraterrestrial life). That being said, however, a lack of archaeological data isn't meaningless, especially for a civilization so advanced and long-lived. Consider how much we know about the Incas even though they were around for less than 400 years and had no written language.

Hemidakota: I'll have to look further into my mesoamerican history. Thanks for the lead.

[poulsenll]

Do people today believe this?

Yes it is a real written language. It is called hieratic and is a derivative of Egyption hierglypics

From the Wiki

Hieratic is a cursive writing system used in pharaonic Egypt that developed alongside the hieroglyphic system,[1] to which it is intimately related

Since it was derived from the glyphic system it is a reformed way to write the language. However it did not imply any reformation of the spoken language.

The BofM speaks of a reformed Egyptian writing system as well. It is not the same as the hieratic system although it may have developed for the same reasons, the need for a more easily written form as opposed to glyphs. In the case of the BofM there is no indication that it is a spoken language any more than hieratic is a spoken language.

If you mean was it a real language that was spoken at some time then the answer is no.

Larry P

[HiJolly]

I don't believe "reformed egyptian" was EVER in widespread use, ANYWHERE.

The book of Mormon certainly teaches that it was a very, very narrow usage, and may in fact have been limited to a mere 10 or even less people, at any given time during the 600BC - 400AD time of its professed usage.

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

Yes it is a real written language. It is called hieratic and is a derivative of Egyption hierglypics

From the Wiki

Hieratic is a cursive writing system used in pharaonic Egypt that developed alongside the hieroglyphic system,[1] to which it is intimately related

Since it was derived from the glyphic system it is a reformed way to write the language. However it did not imply any reformation of the spoken language.

The BofM speaks of a reformed Egyptian writing system as well. It is not the same as the hieratic system although it may have developed for the same reasons, the need for a more easily written form as opposed to glyphs. In the case of the BofM there is no indication that it is a spoken language any more than hieratic is a spoken language.

If you mean was it a real language that was spoken at some time then the answer is no.

Larry P

I agree.

HiJolly

[prisonchaplain]

If "Reformed Egyptian" was used by a very small group of people, then it's basically coded communication--unless this was the native language of this tiny group???

[KosherXMorg]

I believe Reformed Egyptian is related to Negev, an ancient language from the desert between Egypt and Israel, a writing that has been discovered on ancient American artifacts.