How to forgive but not forget????

[johnnylingo]

I no longer want to be friends with a former roommate, but I will be seeing her at church.

Is it possible to truly forgive someone, but not be their friend?

Can it be called forgiveness if the only thing you feel comfortable saying to them is "hello"?

My roommate can be charming and personable, but I think it'll be better for me not to interact with her in any way....

[Misshalfway]

Forgiveness is not trust, that is for sure.

But neither is going around feeling the burden of past conflict either. Forgiveness is a gift you give yourself. It frees you. And for the rest.....the being uncomfortable around this person, I understand that all to well. I think what helps is loving yourself and then loving your enemies too. You can be in the same room with an enemy and feel peace. You don't have to even think about them being there. You can go on with your life. Make them the least important part of what you experience everyday.

[skalenfehl]

To truly forgive someone is to truly love them, to truly feel charity and compassion towards them. To be able to look in their eyes with the same eyes as the Lord would when He forgives us because when we are forgiven He remembers our sins no more. In my opinion this is the ultimate measuring stick of forgiveness. It can be a difficult path for some where a trespass was great and so much hurt caused, and the challenge is to truly unload completely the burden of remembering the offense to the point where you can love this person as you love yourself and the Lord loves you. This is the ultimate freedom from the bondage of a grudge.

Matt. 5: 44

44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

We are our brothers' keepers and one day those who trespass against us will have to make a reckoning for their offense and when we have the charity to remember their trespasses no more, we can truly claim their friendship and love as our neighbors in the Celestial Kingdom.

Edited June 24, 2008 by skalenfehl

[Misshalfway]

To truly forgive someone is to truly love them, to truly feel charity and compassion towards them. To be able to look in their eyes with the same eyes as the Lord would when He forgives us because when we are forgiven He remembers our sins no more. In my opinion this is the ultimate measuring stick of forgiveness. It can be a difficult path for some where a trespass was great and so much hurt caused, and the challenge is to truly unload completely the burden of remembering the offense to the point where you can love this person as you love yourself and the Lord loves you. This is the ultimate freedom from the bondage of a grudge.

Matt. 5: 44

44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

We are our brothers' keepers and one day those who trespass against us will have to make a reckoning for their offense and when we have the charity to remember their trespasses no more, we can truly claim their friendship and love as our neighbors in the Celestial Kingdom.

I must admit this concept being something that I aspire to but not something that I can live in my life in the terms you so eloquently placed above. I don't know how to forgive and then love that person like God would love me. Not sure I have that capacity. I know that I can forgive and move on. But I struggle with situations that don't end well or cleanly or situations that have no closure or hope of obtaining closure.

I am afraid I have much to learn in terms of loving enemies. Perhaps loving them, is different than liking them. Perhaps loving them takes work. Perhaps God doesn't expect it all to happen in an instant.

For now, I try my best with regards to the people in my life I need to forgive. I hope whatever I can offer will be acceptable to God or maybe He will help fill in the blanks.

[Moksha]

Harsh feelings will keep their talons in you till you forgive. Why hold on to anger anyway?

It just drains energy away from you and sends bad karma out into the Universe.

Relax and feel serene.

[Misshalfway]

Ahhoooomm! Ahooommm!

[skalenfehl]

MissHalfway, it took me half a lifetime to learn this. It takes years of love, patience and understanding towards the offender who trespasses you. Why did Christ ask His Father to forgive those who crucified Him? Because they did not fully comprehend what they were doing. They no doubt do now but they will have had to make this reckoning and because Christ never put up a wall for a grudge, they have the opportunity to make right by it and become released of the burden of guilt.

This is especially difficult for those who endured years of abuse, or perhaps suffered a violation or crime. But when the victim can learn through longsuffering (what a profound word!) the true principle of forgiveness it leaves the gate open between the offender and the victim. Whenever someone has willfully berated me, or done or said something horrible or with ill will, or caused willful harm, I don't take it as an offense anymore because I know that somewhere, sometime this person was hurt or caused to hold such a hurtful feeling to pass it on. The world is filled with so much dysfunction and people who don't know how to cope with it. This is why God gave the law of Moses (an eye for an eye). But if we forgive those who trespass against us rather than put a barrier up where healing can never take place, then how can there ever be reconciling and good will in heaven?

[Islander]

I no longer want to be friends with a former roommate, but I will be seeing her at church.

Is it possible to truly forgive someone, but not be their friend?

Can it be called forgiveness if the only thing you feel comfortable saying to them is "hello"?

My roommate can be charming and personable, but I think it'll be better for me not to interact with her in any way....

This is a very interesting theme. I think most of us have a very difficult time dealing with strong emotions since in our culture there is no social training to develop such skills. Candor, transparency and truth sharing are not traits people REALLY appreciate or value much.

Anger is not an emotion but rather a reaction. It is quite useful because it generates a lot of energy which we often need to deal with very painful situations. That is the real emotion; pain. Your friend did something that caused you pain. So, now you are hurt but anger works better because otherwise you would cry and wonder why she betrayed your trust and confidence in such a way. It would visibly break your heart. That may not work for you and the image you want to project. But, if you are to be true to your self you must recognized you are hurt by your friend's actions.

That said, you may want to confide in somebody, really vent, cry a little (or a lot, whatever the case may be) and get the whole affair off your chest. Now, if your friend is not "evil" (purposefully and intentionally caused you pain) which likely she is not; then she falls in the stupid-prone category. What she did may have been selfish, careless, stupid, denoting her immaturity and tendency to be self-centered and emotionally tone deaf. Grandma just to say: "People are not stupid on purpose. On that moment, they just don't know any better."

You may try a script like this in your mind: "You hurt me and I do not understand why. It may take me a while to heal but I will be OK. I want to believe that you did not hurt me intentionally. It may take even longer for you to realize what you have done. But I have no desire to hurt you back. Although my heart hurts I forgive yo."

This is what I, more or less, do when my wife does something that stirs those quasi-homicidal-Hitchcock thoughts. I remember all that she does/did for me and the way she loves me. In your case your past friendship must have been worth something. Start there. Either way, it is going to take some time but you have to try. Forgiveness must be TRUE. The test? When you can embrace her with love rather than choke her. But you have to desire it. Time alone will do very little for you without actively seeking to forgive her.

I hope it helps.

Edited June 24, 2008 by Islander

[Misshalfway]

Thank you, Skaf.... and Moksha! You are both so right.

I suppose in some ways I am in the midst of really understanding what forgiveness means for me and my situation. Sometimes it comes naturally. Sometimes I get confused with the difference between forgiveness and trust. I think the title of this thread says a lot. Can you forgive, but retain a remembrance of who not to trust again and why.

If loving enemies means associating with them again, then I have problems. Some I wouldn't even question walking away from, such as an abuser. But in relationships, such as familial ones, where emotions run high and the potential for hurt is increased, the way gets muddier for me. I feel like I have forgiven to a point. I try to see the other side, have compassion for circumstances and lack of information, but at the same time, can't allow wrongs or violations to continue either. Can't open myself up again, as I have so often before, because I know the same disrespect will happen again. So, if saying no more or ouch or removing myself from the situation prevents me from having a full forgiveness in my heart, then I think I have more work to do.

How often I have mused to myself similar words as Moksha was trying to say.....and then still find the pain still there? I wonder sometimes when I think I have forgiven and laid a matter to rest, why is there still pain? Perhaps the healing takes longer than the act of forgiving. Sometimes I feel like forgiveness hasn't been enough to heal situations. That makes me sad as well. How many times would I love for brothers to be brothers again.....only to find that forgiveness isn't always enough to repair the damage. Or perhaps the full measure of forgiveness isn't there in my heart yet. But Heaven knows I want it to be. Heaven knows......

Edited June 24, 2008 by Misshalfway

[skalenfehl]

I understand, Misshalfway. Forgiveness should be freely given, but trust is something that is earned and should be earned. If I may share as briefly as possible one experience. I grew up in a dysfunctional and abusive home. (This ties in with my other post http://www.lds.net/forums/advice-board/12271-clinging-faith.html#post218095)

My father had a terrible temper and disciplined us excessively. I won't go into details but it was bad. He put my sisters and me through so much pain. There were times that we begged my mother to divorce him. Through God's grace I somehow was able to have clarity growing up as a child and because of my mother's longsuffering and love for us I served a mission. I learned so much about the gospel, compassion and I began to truly understand that my dad isn't evil. He was terribly misguided because he suffered physical abuse from his mother far worse than he inflicted upon me and my sisters put together. He had so much unresolved baggage.

I could easily have never gone back home or made amends with my Dad and cut lines of communication and many might say very justifiably so. I think my sisters are finally starting to come around. At least I hope so. But I was able to look deeper and see that my Dad was in a world of pain of his own and didn't know how to cope. After my mission I moved away and often broke lines of communication and after therapy I learned something that I told my father, who was inside my head for so long that it drove me nearly insane. I said that I no longer desired to be dysfunctional and in order for this to happen I had to disassociate myself from dysfunction. I told him that I didn't want to talk to him again until he was ready to understand what I had been trying to tell him for so long (endless phone discussions about the gospel, offenses, forgiveness, etc). I had tried to share with him the eternal perspective that I had gained. I was in my early twenties at this time.

It took years of frustrating phone conversations for him to slowly be filled with the light and understanding that comes from the gospel, but as he began to come around the floodgates of repentance slowly opened and the remorse and anguish that he experienced because of the pain that he caused us took over and it took another few years for him to truly feel forgiven by me. He truly lived all his life feeling that nobody could love him. To feel loved or be loved was completely foreign to him.

I had always readily forgiven him but the trust had to be earned and learned by him as well. He had to trust that I had no grudge to bear and if I had, I would never have given him the opportunity to grow. Now after all these years (over 30) my father and I have such a strong and loving relationship. As a matter of fact he flew up to visit me today and is staying here for a couple weeks with my Mom and we're going to spend lots of quaity time together.

There is so much more to this story that would take up volumes. If it hadn't been for the strength of my mother, who was a convert and devoted member of the church, I would never have gone on a mission. If my mother had divorced my father and harbored grudges and hatred and resentment our family would have perpetuated dysfunction, bitterness and unresolved feelings in our children and likely their children. So many opportunities would have been lost that take a lifetime of healing to take care of. I would have missed out on going on a mission and the important learning experiences that I ended up teaching my father and bringing everything full circle so that we could be an eternal family.

This is why I say that I am grateful for the trials and tribulations that Father in Heaven chose to place upon me. Would I want to repeat this experience? No way. Would I do it again if I had to? Yes. This was one of my bitter cups in life but I drank it. I have no regrets. These extremely difficult experiences strengthened me and prepared me for greater challenges that I didn't know I was going to face in my own marriage, especially regarding being unable to have children because of miscarriages and a tubal pregnancy that my wife suffered for years. I discovered that all the principles that I learned became tools that I needed to become a foster and and adoptive parent to seriously dysfunctional boys and raise them from their young teenage years. I needed to have the clarity and sensitivity that my mother taught me combined with the strict and disciplined mentality that my father taught me (he joined the Army at 18 to escape home) to be able to raise and discipline and succor my boys.

It is not the tragedies, trials and tribulations that we endure by which we are measured, but rather how we deal with those tragedies, trials and tribulations and learn from them that define us. Suffering evil at the hands of others is not how the Lord intended us to learn, but He gives us the strength to overcome them when we reach out for His strength and succor so that we, too, can succor others, especially those who offend us because they have lost their way.

I hope this doesn't derail this topic, but I feel it very relevant. Forgiveness is so important even when trust is an issue or further harm a possibility. We have to judge the situation and remove ourselves from it if necessary, but when it comes to making amends with friends, neighbors and loved ones, or those who could become our enemies, we have the opportunity to see past offenses and reconciling differences as quickly as possible, grow together and move on to strengthening others.

Edited June 25, 2008 by skalenfehl

[NeuroTypical]

The only thing I could add, is to note that forgiveness should never hinge on someone else's repentence. It's wonderful that skalenfehl's dad came to repent and forgive himself. Sadly, some folks never leave their evil acts behind them.

It would sure be a shame if we sat around waiting to forgive, demanding to first see signs of repentance. We might wait our lives away. We might wait our exaltation away.

LM

[Misshalfway]

I have tears streaming down my face. :) My heart breaks for you and your sisters and for your sweet father who was perhaps once a terrified little boy.

Thank you for sharing something so personal. I very much appreciate it. I appreciate the difficulty and complexity of it and the blessings your have pulled from such suffering. I am so very glad that you have found, after such struggle, peace with your father. How often I have wished for someone to extend mercy to us, as you have offered to him! And for your sweet mother, who no doubt carried quiet burdens of suffering through those years, my heart goes to her as well. I hope some day your children understand what price brought about their blessings.

I feel a little apologetic to Johnny Lingo.....this is your thread and perhaps I have stolen a little focus. For that I am sorry. Hope the topic is still on point, though.

I suppose I find myself wrestling within. Move over Enos! :) Wrestling with the pain while trying to factor in the lessons Father has taught me over the last three years and is teaching me today. My situation, though different, is teaching me many of the same lessons. I often feel unfit for the task as each next big challenge seems to dwarf my abilities to deal. I have been angry. And parts of me are grateful for the anger. It got me to safer ground. But now, I don't have much room for anger anymore. I don't need it. It makes me tired and it steals my peace. And, I need peace and safety right now. Perhaps forgiveness is the final thing that sets a person free.... and then allows God's miracles of restoration to occur. In the end though, you are right. It is not what happens to us, but how we handle it that matters most. Before I got married, Father gave me a similar admonition. I had no idea what I would face way back then, but that has been a truth that has remained with me.

Thank you for this discussion. For your kindness in sharing.....It is a hand up to a person who has stumbled. Again, thank you.

[BusyMom]

Forgiveness is a process and a journey. Someone mentioned they thought they had forgiven only to feel the pain again later, that's because it takes time to truly forgive. You have to decide when and how much to allow a person who has offended you back into your life. Be patient with yourself, the commandment does not say we have to forgive immediately. Trust in the Savior to guide you. A good counselor can help you process your feelings and thoughts related to what's happened to you. And right now, take care of yourself...do something good for yourself each day because healing is a lot of hard work. You need your energy to build your relationship with Heavenly Father and the Savior so they help you, if you're running on empty, this isn't going to happen! I hope that you are able to find the peace you are so desperately seeking.

[ruthiechan]

The only thing I could add, is to note that forgiveness should never hinge on someone else's repentence. It's wonderful that skalenfehl's dad came to repent and forgive himself. Sadly, some folks never leave their evil acts behind them.

It would sure be a shame if we sat around waiting to forgive, demanding to first see signs of repentance. We might wait our lives away. We might wait our exaltation away.

LM

Good reminder. If I waited then I'd still be a bitter angry person which would have had terrible negative consequences on my ability to be a good wife and mother and friend.

I got the impression that before his father's repentance Skalenfehl was already well on the road to forgiving his father and that through his forgiveness was able to influence his father to become a better man.

Edited July 1, 2008 by ruthiechan
Clarity

[ruthiechan]

Forgiveness is a process and a journey. Someone mentioned they thought they had forgiven only to feel the pain again later, that's because it takes time to truly forgive. You have to decide when and how much to allow a person who has offended you back into your life. Be patient with yourself, the commandment does not say we have to forgive immediately. Trust in the Savior to guide you. A good counselor can help you process your feelings and thoughts related to what's happened to you. And right now, take care of yourself...do something good for yourself each day because healing is a lot of hard work. You need your energy to build your relationship with Heavenly Father and the Savior so they help you, if you're running on empty, this isn't going to happen! I hope that you are able to find the peace you are so desperately seeking.

It's called emotional memory. If you start recalling events you start remembering how you felt, and you suddenly you feel angry or hurt. Thus, you can forgive someone then later recall the events of the past that caused the need for you to forgive that person, only to feel the hurt you felt because you remember how you felt at that time. You are simply recalling your past feelings not your current feelings.

[Aphrodite]

JonnyLingo, I had a real bust up with a friend about 5 years ago. His behaviour was disgusting and I haven't spoken to him since. In fact if Ive ever seen him at church or whatever I would just give him these looks to let him know how I felt. About 3 months ago he messaged me on facebook saying why do you still hate me? I couldnt belive he didnt know so I went into a long explanation about it. He said, ok I was young and stupid and Im sorry. I thought about this and I said fair enough. However, I saw him at a wedding 2 weeks ago and neither of us approached each other. It was like an unspoken agreement between us that we dont hold this grudge anymore, but we dont necesarilly have to be friends either. So it worked that way for us. I lost a friend but it wasn't a big loss really as I found out. I respect him for apologising but I have no desire to be his friend anymore. So it is possible.

[RadioactiveWolfboy]

I had my situation hit me while I was in the Elders Quorum. A friend of the family's son came to me and told me he had been sexually molesting my daughter from when she was 6 to age 13, as well as 4 other girls. I was calm and told him we'd work through it. Over time I found out more and more. I heard him say things like he shouldn't have to go to jail or register as a sex offender. As time went by I grew angrier and angrier. I no longer visit his family because I don't want to see him. I finally came to the point where I felt I forgave him, but I stopped talking to him. I felt I had to forgive him, but I don't have to hangout with him and be his friend. Recently he was stalking my daughter at work, so I placed a restraining order on him through probation and parole. I don't hate him, but feel really sorry for him. I have to protect my daughter though. He is now attending another ward because of this, and may be excommunicated. Forgiveness is hard. I believe that I am still not quite there, but gaining.

Rich

[MorningStar]

You don't have to interract with her the way you once did, but maybe you could pray for her? :)

[ruthiechan]

I had my situation hit me while I was in the Elders Quorum. A friend of the family's son came to me and told me he had been sexually molesting my daughter from when she was 6 to age 13, as well as 4 other girls. I was calm and told him we'd work through it. Over time I found out more and more. I heard him say things like he shouldn't have to go to jail or register as a sex offender. As time went by I grew angrier and angrier. I no longer visit his family because I don't want to see him. I finally came to the point where I felt I forgave him, but I stopped talking to him. I felt I had to forgive him, but I don't have to hangout with him and be his friend. Recently he was stalking my daughter at work, so I placed a restraining order on him through probation and parole. I don't hate him, but feel really sorry for him. I have to protect my daughter though. He is now attending another ward because of this, and may be excommunicated. Forgiveness is hard. I believe that I am still not quite there, but gaining.

Rich

He needs help.

Most child molesters were molested themselves and seriously need help. If he is not actively doing something to change his behavior then he needs to be removed from society and be registered as a sex offender.

You can also see these things come to pass and still forgive him because in essence what you are doing is helping him and helping your daughter and the girls he molested. The innocent are far more important than his feelings.

Has your daughter confessed these things to you as well? This could help in getting him the help he needs to end being a monster. It is a possible for change to happen. I met a man who molested/raped his daughters. He was ex'd, but he said that now he does everything he can to be a good man. He apologized to his victims, and he and his new wife do NO babysitting. Family can visit, but no babysitting because he does not want to risk starting the cycle again. He was also sexually abused as a child. It was really interesting.

However, with the stalking of your daughter it seems that he is not truly repentant. It could be that he was taunting your daughter that you didn't have him thrown in jail, you don't care about her, or it's okay with you. . .

Forgiveness does not mean allowing people to get away from the consequences of their actions.

[BusyMom]

I'm worried about your daughter and his other victims, this is a vicious crime that has serious consequences. She suffered abuse at his hands for a number of years. I don't know her age but a good counselor, I think, is imperative. If he is stalking her, how does she feel about this? What can she do for herself ? (she needs to feel some control and empowerment) Can she file for a restraining order?

As for him, he needs help. The criminal justice system for adults rarely provides any treatment, juvenile justice systems are better at this. Of course, juvenile offenders are more malleable and have lower recidivism rates than adults so treatment money is better spent. There are many sexual addiction self-help groups, outpatient treatment programs, and residential treatment centers for this problem. Is he going to trial for his actions? Has it been reported? My personal opinion is it should be. My reasoning is that a thorough investigation will be made and possibly more victims uncovered. This allows these victims an opportunity to be heard and to get counseling and other help they might need. Second, if the investigation shows abuse happened (I think the standard on this is "preponderance of the evidence") then he will be listed on the CPS or DFS registry as an abuser and will not be able to be employed in Human Service fields (day care, elder care, counseling,) where he could take advantage of vulnerable people. By reporting , you are protecting them!

As a pp stated, he was probably a victim of sexual abuse himself. He needs to receive victim-specific treatment. However, he is responsible for his actions as an offender and needs to receive offender-specific treatment. There is a lot involved in treatment on both sides, let's just suffice it to say that this is a LONG process. How old is he?

[NeuroTypical]

...molesting my daughter from when she was 6 to age 13, as well as 4 other girls...

I trust you've called the police and told them all you know?

My advise mirrors others on this thread. Please make sure your daughter gets the help she needs. People do not tend to just 'shake off' half a dozen years of child sexual abuse. These events will color the rest of her life, and she most likely needs help to learn appropriate coping skills before she starts implementing her own destructive ones.

God bless her, and you.

LM

[NeuroTypical]

Great post, BusyMom.

Of course, juvenile offenders are more malleable and have lower recidivism rates than adults so treatment money is better spent.

I have heard things like this before, but I've never been able to track down a source or study. Do you have a link you can share, or a journal you've read? I'd really like to know why we believe this is true.

Thanks,

Rob

[BusyMom]

"Results supported previous research indicating that most adolescents who sexually offend do not continue offending into adulthood. Such results can lead to improved treatment by targeting specific risk factors for intervention and better use of risk management resources in the community, while preserving the most restrictive treatment options for the highest risk offenders." from Sexual Abuse: Journal of Research and Treatment, Vol 18(4), Oct 2006. pp. 319-342.

I can't post a complete link because I found this in my University's electronic database. If you want some more references, just let me know. What is found in treating adolescent offenders is that they have "turned off" their empathy in order to offend (regardless of whether they were abused or not). One of the major goals of treatment involves them having to work through empathy exercises, learn to experience "group consequences" (when one member messes up, they all face the consequences) and taking responsibility for their actions. Programs are quite intense, private ones are VERY expensive, and require involvement of the family to promote the best outcomes. The good news is that adolescents have a high chance of recovery and no further offenses--most of this is based on theories of development in the brain and the ability to retrain thinking patterns. The most effective treatment is before an offender is 17 years old. Treatment is more effective that locking them up in jail and less expensive.

Hope that helps! I can find you more resources if you would like.

[NeuroTypical]

Hey - how come you can't thank someone twice in a post?! :)

Thank you, BusyMom. It's always good to see people educated and informed about these issues.

LM

[BusyMom]

Glad to help!