Respecting Religious Boundaries

[azazel420]

I don't see this as an issue with disrespect towards someone's beliefs but rather an issue with violating a person's personal boundaries. If you believe people should not drink that's all well and good but it doesn't require those around you to respect your beliefs. If you have rules within your own home of what you don't want to occur and someone disrespects those rules then they've violated your personal space.

My parents and oldest sister are practicing Mormons and they don't drink alcohol or like others drinking it but I've never really considered it rude to drink moderately around them. I like alcohol (in moderation) and feel free to enjoy it so long as it doesn't pose any safety risk to others (drinking and driving).

The sharing a room thing, my opinion get over it. Long as they aren't making a spectacle of it I don't think you should forcibly separate people who don't share your views on it. If you invited them over don't expect them to change their lives to respect your beliefs, they don't believe the same thing as you do. If I were in that situation I would of opted for a hotel room. I wouldn't kick my girlfriend out of the room because someone wasn't comfortable with us sleeping in the same bed not being married.

Edited July 1, 2008 by azazel420

[Truegrits]

The sharing a room thing, my opinion get over it. Long as they aren't making a spectacle of it I don't think you should forcibly separate people who don't share your views on it.

Yes I can if it is MY home. I absolutely have the right to set boundaries/rules. They can do whatever they wish anywhere else, but not in my space!

I would not go against the wishes of someone in whose home I was a guest. Common respect and plain old common courtesy dictates that.

[azazel420]

Yes I can if it is MY home. I absolutely have the right to set boundaries/rules. They can do whatever they wish anywhere else, but not in my space!

I would not go against the wishes of someone in whose home I was a guest. Common respect and plain old common courtesy dictates that.

Ya, that's fine. Don't invite them to stay in your house then. If you do invite them to stay in your house then you're accepting them in regardless. Telling someone it's okay to come and stay in your house and then making demands requiring them to kick their loved one out isn't right. I wouldn't have a problem with someone saying I couldn't stay in their house if I was going to be shacked up with an unmarried lover, I just wouldn't come.

[ruthiechan]

Ya, that's fine. Don't invite them to stay in your house then. If you do invite them to stay in your house then you're accepting them in regardless. Telling someone it's okay to come and stay in your house and then making demands requiring them to kick their loved one out isn't right. I wouldn't have a problem with someone saying I couldn't stay in their house if I was going to be shacked up with an unmarried lover, I just wouldn't come.

I absolutely disagree here.

If the rule in my house is no bouncing on the couch that rule is still enforced even with my child's friends when they come over. It does not change simply because my child's friend is allowed to bounce on the couch at their house.

If the rule is wash your hands every time we come inside or before every meal it stays that way even if a friend comes over. If the rule is no running in the house, then there is to be no running in the house even when friends are over.

There is no problem with saying to someone, "I'd love to have you stay, but these are the rules in my home. If you can not deal with those rules then I'll help you find some place else to stay, but if you can handle it you are more than welcome here."

If I visit another country and the law is "no prayer in public" I have to abide by that law even though it's perfectly okay in my country. I am not suddenly an exception to that law.

There are rules in my home and because you are visiting does not suddenly make you an exception to the rule. It sets an unfair and unjust precedence within the household and would cause all sorts of undue family problems and familial stress.

This is about respecting someone elses personal space. It has nothing to do with religion. Would you go onto someone elses computer and change all their settings to suit you? No. Even if all you want is a lower resolution, if you want to institute any sort of change, compromise or exception you must respectfully ask first and be prepared and not get upset if the answer is no.

[prisonchaplain]

Azazel, just to give you another perspective...I do care what others think. Why intentionally offend or make others uncomfortable? For example, we recently had the gathering in SLC for LDSnet. There were roughly 20 of us there, and 17-18 were practicing LDS. Nobody there would have blame me a bit if I'd ordered coffee with my meal. And, usually, I do. However, I figured, why bring into the environment what most avoid? I could wait a few hours. Perhaps nobody cared or noticed...but I felt good about it.

In the OP scenario, everyone had been given advance notice. Therefore the "couch bouncing" was an in-your-face insult. The host was forced to choose between making a scene and being disrespected and taken advantage of.

Personally, I believe we should go back to the days when landlords could prohibit shacking up by tenants...but that's just me. :-)

[kona0197]

Although it may have hurt I applaud you for sticking to your morals, teachings and values. It can be hard at times to do so but it is worth it.

[MorningStar]

Ya, that's fine. Don't invite them to stay in your house then. If you do invite them to stay in your house then you're accepting them in regardless. Telling someone it's okay to come and stay in your house and then making demands requiring them to kick their loved one out isn't right. I wouldn't have a problem with someone saying I couldn't stay in their house if I was going to be shacked up with an unmarried lover, I just wouldn't come.

Yeah, as was mentioned, they asked to stay there and she was dreading it because she figured this would happen. At first they said they were going to stay in a hotel, but they changed their minds. My cousin's boyfriend is apparently high maintenance and can't sleep unless he has his own room. Then go to a hotel! Reminds me of my relative who expects his own room when there are 22 people in the house. He refuses to adapt to the situation.

[kona0197]

Good thing I'm a guy who takes life as it comes with a level head (most of the time) and am full of patience...

[azazel420]

I guess I won't understand your position. How you tell it the only thing that set her off was them not being married. They weren't doing anything that would of inherently created conflict. Have to ask.... what does she care if they are married or not? It's their life not hers. Say I'm against inter-racial marriage and an inter-racial couple is in my family in that situation. Am I right in telling them they can't sleep together because I disapprove of their relationship? Far as I see it people's relationships are their own business, even if it's under your roof. Long as they aren't being disgusting why judge them?

[MorningStar]

It's really not that complicated. No one should expect another person to allow something they find morally wrong in their house, especially after agreeing to the conditions. Let's say I asked to stay at my vegetarian friend's house.

Me: Hi, may I stay at your house for a night?

Friend: Well, OK, but you should know that we don't allow meat in our house and I know how you like meat, so just be forewarned that we will be serving vegetarian meals while you're here. If that's not OK with you, I won't be hurt if you want to stay somewhere else.

Me: OK, that sounds fine.

Then let's say I show up and say that I was just going to eat a little bacon for breakfast, I was going to open the windows so they wouldn't smell it as much, and I would clean the pan out afterwards, knowing that my friends are morally opposed to killing animals for food. That would not be OK and very lame of me, because I could've stayed at a hotel and gone to Denny's for breakfast to eat all the meat I want. It's not about the smell for them or the clean up - It's about not supporting what they find morally wrong in their home and I wouldn't take it as them judging me. They are my friends despite my choice to eat meat. It didn't matter that my cousin and her boyfriend weren't planning on having sex in her home - She strongly values the sanctity of marriage, has made covenants to keep the Law of Chastity, wants the Spirit in her home, and doesn't feel right about allowing something she finds wrong. If they invited her to their home, she wouldn't ask them to sleep in separate quarters - she would decide if she really wanted to stay there. That's her choice.

Why would anyone in an interracial marriage want to stay with someone who didn't approve of their marriage? That's a rather extreme example.

As to what set my mom off, I know her well. It was their dishonesty and purposely going against her wishes when she made it well known and that was just one more thing on top of her cousin sneaking alcohol into her living room. Leading up to this gathering, there was also a lot of stress on her because she wanted a smaller gathering the day before the big reunion, her health has been terrible, and her sister got on her case for not inviting her over too (she wasn't trying to exclude her, just keep the gathering smaller to lessen her stress and they were all going to be together the next day), so overall, her whole family was not being sensitive to her needs and thinking only about themselves. She has been having trouble breathing, stress makes it worse, she recently had a staff infection in her lungs, pneumonia, pancreatitis, and other health problems, so the thought of having to feed a huge crowd was causing her more stress and her sister was ignoring that, complaining about how her feelings were hurt. She never intended to hurt her feelings or exclude her. They all came from alcoholic parents and were abandoned, left completely alone for months at a time, etc., so their relationships are a little strained and are becoming more dysfunctional as they age. It's sad. I think my mom fears losing more of her family and she did try to keep the peace, but at the cost of being disrespected. She lost her mom who has been missing for almost 40 years - we don't know if she is alive or dead. We watched her dad die after drinking himself into a coma. Her grandma disowned her when she joined the church. Her oldest sister is estranged from her and disowned her own kids for finding their biological mothers. So I'm sure she feels like making a stink about anything important to her when her brother's family only comes once a decade and spending all that money on plane tickets makes her fear very much that she will lose what she has left of her family, but right now she says she doesn't really care if they ever come visit again. Her siblings learned by example to give up when things get tough. Quit. Don't work on your relationships - get mad, hold a grudge, and wait for them to come crawling back to you. My aunt says her son "isn't her family anymore", yet when he almost died in the hospital, she called her siblings saying, "I can't believe this is happening to me!" and she refused to go visit him. She told them not to talk about him anymore and expected them to disown him too for having the nerve to find his biological mother. And she refuses to see a therapist because she says therapists are crazy.

Did I mention I'm glad I skipped the reunion on Sunday?

[WANDERER]

LOL Morning Star at being glad you skipped the reunion. I don't think your mom was asking too much at all. Being the glue that keeps a family together is a tiring business especially when they're all busy trying to do exactly the opposite. Sometimes you can't anymore.

[VisionOfLehi]

Azazel, just to give you another perspective...I do care what others think. Why intentionally offend or make others uncomfortable? For example, we recently had the gathering in SLC for LDSnet. There were roughly 20 of us there, and 17-18 were practicing LDS. Nobody there would have blame me a bit if I'd ordered coffee with my meal. And, usually, I do. However, I figured, why bring into the environment what most avoid? I could wait a few hours. Perhaps nobody cared or noticed...but I felt good about it.

Oh but you ordered Diet Coke! HEATHEN! Lol. So did Skal. And I thought so highly of him...

Kidding!

I'm just glad no one ordered wine! I hate alcohol. >_< The smell alone makes me sick.

I see a lot of people saying they wouldn't allow it in their homes... But is it as easy as saying that? Standing up to family is a bit harder than just saying "My way or the highway."

The no booze/smoking and no sharing a bedroom are the kinds of rules I think should be enforced... But what about Prison's example of coffee? Tea?

We do have to remember that the rest of the world doesn't have our standards, they aren't subject to them. While they should respect ours, we should also respect that they're different.

Happy medium, then? Don't compromise our core values, and don't force others to abide by our other "rules."

[azazel420]

Just depends on how you look at it. On one hand, if someone asks you not to do whatever in their home it's good to respect it. On the other hand when you hold beliefs that aren't universal it's not always right to expect a person to share in your beliefs in your home. If I'm Jewish I'd certainly want to eat kosher but I wouldn't demand visitors also show a strict observance to my dietary restriction. If I were vegetarian I wouldn't ask that my friends don't eat meat in my house. I might feel strongly in that conviction but recognize that other's don't and if a friend is staying with me I don't feel it's right to push my belief on them. Of course if they know of my conviction and wish to respect it by not eating meat in my house then it's fine and shows a respect that I would appreciate.

I'm not saying you or your mom are wrong, there's always another way to look at something but I just don't agree with that approach personally. It's a matter of perspective that I don't think we could ever share even if we argued back and forth to eternity.

You are right that the inter-racial thing is extreme. I just don't think that I could enforce a rule dictating involved couples forcibly separate. To me, it's rude. It's like saying your relationship isn't good enough for my house. I think it stems from a fundamental difference in opinion on relationships. To you, premarital relationships of that type are not natural and waiting for marriage to sleep together is natural. To me it's not the case, premarital relationships are totally natural to me and I couldn't deny one intimate contact to a loved one.

Edited July 2, 2008 by azazel420

[Iggy]

On the other hand when you hold beliefs that aren't universal it's not always right to expect a person to share in your beliefs in your home. If I'm Jewish I'd certainly want to eat kosher but I wouldn't demand visitors also show a strict observance to my dietary restriction.

Yes I DO expect house guests to respect my faith and the rules of my home when they are under my roof. Those who don't are shown the door. I don't care what time of day it is, they are escorted out and they are NEVER allowed back in. If I was Kosher Jewish, I would not eat at a non Kosher home. If others were in my home, they will eat what I cook and eat, or they will eat elsewhere. Seeing that I am LDS, and I were in a Kosher Jewish home, I would partake of their food and pass on the wine and ask for water instead.

To you, premarital relationships of that type are not natural and waiting for marriage to sleep together is natural. To me it's not the case, premarital relationships are totally natural to me and I couldn't deny one intimate contact to a loved one.

When I was inactive and living with my boyfriend, when we visited my mother, he stayed at the motel, I stayed with my Mom. Mom was not a member of the church- BUT I had RESPECT for her and her domain. I would not sully that by being trashy and slutty and sleeping with my boyfriend under her roof! I also smoked then, and I refused to do so in her home or in front of her. She had smoked most of her adult life, but had quit because she had emphysema so bad she could barely breathe. Again, I respected her and thought enough of her health to put my petty addiction aside and only smoke occasionally outside. I also respected her property and did not stub out the cigarette butts on the sidewalk or yard!

After I married and before I became an active member I would not allow unmarried couples to occupy the same bed or even the same bedroom under my roof. I did, however give them a list of the motels in the area. My first husband was livid when I refused to pay for the motel rooms for his sisters and their unmarried companions when they dropped in unannounced for a week long visit. I did compromise and allowed their children to stay at our house, but not the unmarried couples.

Morningstar- I would have been just as angry and hurt as your mother. I would have kicked them all out. Even if I was sick, I would have tossed their suitcases out on the front lawn and escorted them to the door.

I have done that, with family, in-laws and with "friends" of my 1st husband. They were angry with me for a while, but it really didn't last all that long. The thing is, they never overstepped my boundaries and rules again.

[rameumptom]

Azazel,

The point is that the owner of the home gets to make the rules, and visitors should respect those rules or go elsewhere.

While you can easily state that IF you were a vegetarian, it wouldn't matter to you if others ate meat in your home, you are only speaking of something that has little value to you. IF you were a true vegan PETA person, it would matter.

Think of something truly offensive to you, and would you allow someone else to do it in your home, simply because that is their way of life? If your visitors were nudists, would it be okay for them to walk naked in your home? If they were into Satanic worship, would you allow them to sacrifice chickens and goats in your backyard? Would you allow your heroin-addicted cousin to take hits in your living room with your kids watching? Would you allow others to turn your home into a cess pool by any standard?

The line you would draw may not be the same as another, but I'm certain there is a line you would eventually draw in order to preserve your own home.

[Tough Grits]

Oh but you ordered Diet Coke! HEATHEN! Lol. So did Skal. And I thought so highly of him...

Kidding!

I'm just glad no one ordered wine! I hate alcohol. >_< The smell alone makes me sick.

I see a lot of people saying they wouldn't allow it in their homes... But is it as easy as saying that? Standing up to family is a bit harder than just saying "My way or the highway."

The no booze/smoking and no sharing a bedroom are the kinds of rules I think should be enforced... But what about Prison's example of coffee? Tea?

We do have to remember that the rest of the world doesn't have our standards, they aren't subject to them. While they should respect ours, we should also respect that they're different.

Happy medium, then? Don't compromise our core values, and don't force others to abide by our other "rules."

This thread has made me think of the rules of my home:

No alcohol, no smoking (unless you go outside...at LEAST 100 ft. from any door or window...as I get severe headaches from the smell of smoke), no unmarried room sharing (never had this one come up!), etc.

But Vision, you touched on something that reminded me of when my Dad used to visit me.

I have mentioned before that he likes to use profane language...not in anger, just as "flavor" to his conversation or story.

I did not ask him to refrain from using ugly words in my home. Looking back, he did not speak vulgar around my babies, but when it was just him and me he would go back to speaking just as he always has. I did not correct him.

I honestly felt prompted by the Spirit to hold my tongue. Why? I sincerely feel that it would have upset my dad and placed him in a situation where he would not even feel comfortable conversing with me, his own daughter.

I didn't want that. I love him. I don't like his language, but he has talked like that for as long as I can remember.

My father is also Cuban. They really like their Cuban coffee, which is MUCH stronger than American coffee. I would never dream of telling my dad not to drink coffee around me. That is as much a part of his culture and speaking Spanish is.

A person drinking coffee or tea, whether in my home or not, does not offend me. It is a standard that I have chosen to accept, but they have not.

I DO have problem with smoking. I have had this problem LONG before I became a member of this Church. It is NOT a religious issue.

Cigarette smoke stinks, and clings easliy to those who are not even smoking. It is also hazardous to my health. It invades my senses, invades my good health, and it violates my personal space and my right to choose NOT to be contaminated with cancer.

So, I think there is a HUGE difference between somebody smoking around me, or somebody having coffee/tea around me. Coffee and tea do not invade my senses, my health, or my person space. Smoking does.

I agree with Vision in that our "core" values should not be set aside, but the "rules" (like coffee and tea) that I have chosen to abide by, should not be enforced on those that do not understand or accept such rules.

But that is just my opinion.

[RachelleDrew]

I agree with tough grits. The smoking and drinking are things that can affect everyone in the vicinity, and the non-married couples co-sleeping sets a poor example for any youth that may be present. That's why I would have a problem with it in my home.

Whereas nobody is going to make polite company smell bad by drinking coffee, and no one is going to start a brawl because they had too much iced tea. So I don't ban that from my house, and I typically keep decaf coffee and herbal/fruit teas at my home for company.

[prisonchaplain]

Tough Grits, your comments are so reasonable. It may seem like a trivial matter--especially to those of us outside--but it's amazing how silly and unkind people can be. "Hey, if those LDS missionaries come over, let's invite them in and offer them coffee, just to see what they do." Then there are the rumors, "They'll refuse. They'll take it, because they've been taught to be polite..."

My thought--why put anyone in an uncomfortable position? If I know I'm with non-coffee drinkers, I'll abstain for a few hours. On the other hand, folks like yourself really wouldn't mind.

Those who habitually cuss probably don't even think about it. And, yes, they would likely be off-put by having to constantly edit their own speech. Further, some people are just less considerate, and find it offensive when people ask them to show some.

So, we offer as much consideration as we can, and we tolerate as much as we can, and we take our stand when a line of morality, ethics, or spiritual discernment is crossed.

[azazel420]

Azazel,

The point is that the owner of the home gets to make the rules, and visitors should respect those rules or go elsewhere.

While you can easily state that IF you were a vegetarian, it wouldn't matter to you if others ate meat in your home, you are only speaking of something that has little value to you. IF you were a true vegan PETA person, it would matter.

Think of something truly offensive to you, and would you allow someone else to do it in your home, simply because that is their way of life? If your visitors were nudists, would it be okay for them to walk naked in your home? If they were into Satanic worship, would you allow them to sacrifice chickens and goats in your backyard? Would you allow your heroin-addicted cousin to take hits in your living room with your kids watching? Would you allow others to turn your home into a cess pool by any standard?

The line you would draw may not be the same as another, but I'm certain there is a line you would eventually draw in order to preserve your own home.

When I was growing up the phrase "meat is murder" was a common one. For quite some time I was practicing vegetarian, not vegan though I did try to limit dairy. To this day I'm not a big meat eater but I do eat some.

Of course I have boundaries, certainly I wouldn't want people strolling around naked or sacrificing animals in my back yard (you have a weak understanding of satanism by the way, LaVey categorically condemned ritual sacrifice of life or blood). If they were satanists I wouldn't mind one bit them bringing and reading the satanic bible or the satanic witch in my house, though I disagree with much of what it says.

I can certainly understand one not allowing tobacco smoking or the drinking of alcohol in their house (though I'd avoid the second one as I do enjoy alcohol consumption). That which doesn't have any immediate and negative impact on me or others I don't really concern myself with. Again it's a point of view that you probably can't appreciate and likewise I have difficulty appreciating yours. My spiritual (not religious) roots were founded in and around pagan traditions and Thelema where do what thou wilt ("Harm done, do what thou wilt" within Wicca or in Thelema "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law") is an important precept.

Edited July 2, 2008 by azazel420

[rameumptom]

When I was growing up the phrase "meat is murder" was a common one. For quite some time I was practicing vegetarian, not vegan though I did try to limit dairy. To this day I'm not a big meat eater but I do eat some.

Of course I have boundaries, certainly I wouldn't want people strolling around naked or sacrificing animals in my back yard (you have a weak understanding of satanism by the way, LaVey categorically condemned ritual sacrifice of life or blood). If they were satanists I wouldn't mind one bit them bringing and reading the satanic bible or the satanic witch in my house, though I disagree with much of what it says.

I can certainly understand one not allowing tobacco smoking or the drinking of alcohol in their house (though I'd avoid the second one as I do enjoy alcohol consumption). That which doesn't have any immediate and negative impact on me or others I don't really concern myself with. Again it's a point of view that you probably can't appreciate and likewise I have difficulty appreciating yours. My spiritual (not religious) roots were founded in and around pagan traditions and Thelema where do what thou wilt ("Harm done, do what thou wilt" within Wicca or in Thelema "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law") is an important precept.

LaVey's is just one sect of Satanism. There are others, particularly in other countries that do still sacrifice animals. And I Would mind someone bringing their Satanic Bible into my home. I'm open minded about many religions, but not that one, which diametrically opposes my Lord.

[Redbeard]

Hmmm... this seems pretty easy to me, and I'm the heathen on the board!

It's your home, if they do not respect your rules it's not a big deal, you can still love them, and they are still family, but they can do their own thing in a hotel/motel :) .

In someone else's home I respect their rules, and when you come to my house I expect the same thing. What frustrates me is when I have a family member come stay with me while traveling and then get after me for using harsh language and owning R rated movies.... IN MY OWN HOME! Now THAT is frustrating. In my parents home I hold my tounge, I don't drink alchohol or coffee, so that's not a problem at all, but I respect what they believe.

Just remember, if you are in someone else's home DO NOT get after them for not having the same "standards" as you...

Anyway, just wanted to make sure everyone saw the other side.

[rameumptom]

Tough Grits, your comments are so reasonable. It may seem like a trivial matter--especially to those of us outside--but it's amazing how silly and unkind people can be. "Hey, if those LDS missionaries come over, let's invite them in and offer them coffee, just to see what they do." Then there are the rumors, "They'll refuse. They'll take it, because they've been taught to be polite..."

My thought--why put anyone in an uncomfortable position? If I know I'm with non-coffee drinkers, I'll abstain for a few hours. On the other hand, folks like yourself really wouldn't mind.

Those who habitually cuss probably don't even think about it. And, yes, they would likely be off-put by having to constantly edit their own speech. Further, some people are just less considerate, and find it offensive when people ask them to show some.

So, we offer as much consideration as we can, and we tolerate as much as we can, and we take our stand when a line of morality, ethics, or spiritual discernment is crossed.

I was offered alcohol on more than one occasion in exchange for the people listening to the discussions. We would usually first decline, and if they insisted, we would leave.

[VisionOfLehi]

A fitting quote:

"..choose you this day whom ye will serve...but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. "

[Redbeard]

....Of course I have boundaries, certainly I wouldn't want people strolling around naked or sacrificing animals in my back yard (you have a weak understanding of satanism by the way, LaVey categorically condemned ritual sacrifice of life or blood). If they were satanists I wouldn't mind one bit them bringing and reading the satanic bible or the satanic witch in my house, though I disagree with much of what it says.

I can certainly understand one not allowing tobacco smoking or the drinking of alcohol in their house (though I'd avoid the second one as I do enjoy alcohol consumption). That which doesn't have any immediate and negative impact on me or others I don't really concern myself with....

It's fine that you don't mind it in your home, that is your choice. The LDS members of this board find it offensive to do those things, and they believe that it deminishes the "spirit" in their home, so even taking your opinion of what is okay, the person making those decisions is doing harm to them by deminishing that "spirit". What you are stating is way to PC for me... and I'm not even mo(rmon)!

The World is way to caught up on doing whatever possible to not offend people. If you do not want me to offend you, don't come to my house where I do things differently then what you do. The OP told her guests what she allowed and did not allow in her home. If the people did not want to agree to her terms they didn't have to stay in her home! Would it really have been so hard to find a hotel?

By the way, I'm not married and I have a live in girlfriend. If my parents wanted to have a family reunion and gave me the exact same options, I would have not problem getting a hotel. No reason for animosity... I don't hold it against them, but if they were to ever come to my home and try pushing their beliefs on me we would have a problem :)

[Truegrits]

"..choose you this day whom ye will serve...but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. "

This is one of my sisters favorite quotes. She has a framed print of it hanging in her home.