The Cross

[Misshalfway]

I think also for LDS people, it was the in the Garden of Gethsamane that he paid the price for sin -- sweating from every pore. So, the focus of LDS people is not only the cross, but the hours from the moment he entered one garden to the moment Mary met him in another.

[Adeipho]

Let me start out by saying I am very close to leaving the church. Though I have a few questions before, which is why I came here. To start with, one of my issues with church doctrine is the subject of the Cross. Personally, I wear a Cross, but according to the church website, mormons are not supposed to wear the symbol of the cross because, “the Savior lives, [so] we do not use the symbol of His death as the symbol of our faith.” My opinion on the subject, is that the symbol of Christ's' death, the Cross, is the symbol of Christianity because without his death there would be no religion.

So my question is, why? I do not understand why the fact that Christ lives means that we should not wear a Cross. I ask for any further explanation and/or opinions on the subject.

First of all "religion" existed LONG LONG LONG before and WITHOUT the death of Christ on the cross. This statement tells me that you have much maturing to do and I hope you will take a moment to grow before leaving the church behind.

Second, we do not wear a cross as a custom due to our advanced understanding and appriciation for what Christ actually did. He didnt only die on a cross. HE ROSE FROM THE DEAD!!! However, if you want to wear a cross, I say go for it. IF that is how you want to share with the world around you your faith then do it. The Lord will not condemn you for it, and in due time may even show you a better way to show your faith which you find even more satisfying to your heart.

I for one hope you will procrastinate leaving the church and have a few more chats with yours truly. As one who has lived in and out of the church, and one who has been to hell and stalked the outer grounds of Heaven, I can tell you that the Church is the true church upon the earth and that Christ is its head.

I look foward to your replies.

Adeipho

[Islander]

Let me start out by saying I am very close to leaving the church. Though I have a few questions before, which is why I came here. To start with, one of my issues with church doctrine is the subject of the Cross. Personally, I wear a Cross, but according to the church website, mormons are not supposed to wear the symbol of the cross because, “the Savior lives, [so] we do not use the symbol of His death as the symbol of our faith.” My opinion on the subject, is that the symbol of Christ's' death, the Cross, is the symbol of Christianity because without his death there would be no religion.

So my question is, why? I do not understand why the fact that Christ lives means that we should not wear a Cross. I ask for any further explanation and/or opinions on the subject.

I am sory to hear that you have some issues that have not been resolved that is causing your testimony to faulter. I sicerely wish you could find the faith, strength and courage to read, ponder and inquire of the Lord as to understand the questions in your heart.

I think in our country we hold wikipedia too high up for our own good and spend very little time truly studying. We are commanded to study and serch as to be prepared to go forth and do the Lord's work.

The word "cross" does not appear in the original greek of the NT. During the first two centuries of Christianity, the cross may have been rare in Christian lore, as it depicts a painful and gruesome method of public execution. The Ichthys, or fish symbol, was used by early Christians. The Chi-Rho monogram, which was adopted by Constantine in the 4th century as his banner, was another Early Christian symbol. In fact the cross appears since the early bronze age in several pagan symbols of the equinox, the sun and the east-west paradigm. The cross takes relevance away from the roman empire where people were not familiar with this method of execution and Christians begin to carve and represent to converts in texts, walls, fabric and other media the story of the crucifixion of Christ.

There you have it. For the rest, those who would like to follow the counsel of the prophets of this dispensation in regards to the issue at hand will do so. Those who don't I guess they can do as they please.

Edited July 3, 2008 by Islander

[MorningStar]

I don't find the wearing of crosses offensive, but it's not for me because I feel there was so much more to the Atonement than Christ being killed and I like to focus on the fact that He was resurrected.

[Moksha]

So my question is, why? I do not understand why the fact that Christ lives means that we should not wear a Cross. I ask for any further explanation and/or opinions on the subject.

Go ahead and wear a cross. One of the posters, Mike Reed, has pointed out that this aversion to the cross for LDS only came about after the turn of the century. The cross has come to be regarded as a near univeral symbol of Christianity. Its challenge is but one of a personal preference from a church leader. Perhaps it was borne out of a desire to be peculiar or a puff of anger at traditional Christianity. Either way, it is symbolism for you to decide upon.

[Traveler]

I find nothing in the scriptures that indicates that a cross has anything to do with being a part of the Kingdom of heaven. The cross as a symbol is worthless in the eyes of G-d. It is not a deal maker or breaker. It has nothing to do with being a Christian.

If a cross is important to you - that is okay - However, to think it is important in eternity without any scripture reference - is an indication that either a person really does not follow scriptures (traditions of the world are more important). Or they believe G-d has spoken outside the scriptures.

This would mean that there is no scripture cannon. If someone believes in a scripture cannon - they need to explaine to me how such an important symbol is not a part of the cannon.

The Traveler

[bytor2112]

[QUOTE=Maureen;223854]Are you sure about that? All understand the same scripture differently? Can you give an example?M.

Some faiths believe baptism is necessary for salvation, some do not. Some believe that sprinkling is ok, some believe it must be by emersion. Some believe in paying tithes some do not. Some take the sacrament and some do not. Some have female clergy some do not. Some believe in the Nicene Creed, some do not. Some believe in the rapture of the church, some do not. Some believe that we are saved by grace alone, some do not. Some believe that we must be saved to go to heaven, others think differently. Some claim original Apostolic authority, some don't. Some follow the teachings of Weseley, or Luther or Calvin. Some believe that Priests shouldn't marry. Some believe in a Triune God, some do not.

Once upon a time, they (christians) believed the same doctrine and practiced their faith the same way. They believed the doctrine that Christ established on the earth. That doctrine was restored to the earth when a 14 year old boy knelt in a grove of trees and petitioned his Heavenly Father to let him know which church he should join. He was answered that he should join none of them " for they are all wrong." "...they draw near me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me."

THe confusion over different doctrine that I described above is all different interpretations of scripture and this is just a small sampling of the confusion that exists in the Christian churches today.

Heavenly Father is not the author of this confusion. The truth has been restored.

[Rekhyt2238]

You say that Christ and Christianity is a big part of your life, are you active in church? Do you hold the Priesthood? You keep saying the "LDS faith". The LDS faith is Christianity- true pure Christianity. Do you need your Bible with you to expound on the "issues" you are having with some church doctrine?

You are a young man who obviously has a firm testimony that Jesus is the Christ. The best ways to find out information about his church is to go to his church. See your Bishop and tell him of your concerns. Go to Gospel Doctrine class on Sunday. Do you attend Seminary? Pray and don't try and read the Book of Mormon- do it. It contains the fullness of the Everlasting Gospel, the good news of salvation through Christ and is a gift beyond compare, an example of Heavenly Fathers unending love for his children. Don't let the adversary distract you and whisper things to you that will lead you astray. You probably have a great work to do for the Lord and the adversary knows it and there is no better way than distract you from the truth.

No, I am not active in church currently. I hold the Aaronic priesthood, I believe. The statement that the LDS faith is true pure Christianity is your belief. When I said I believed in Christianity in general, I simply meant the basics that most Christian religions agree on. Also yes, I would like my Bible for some reference when I ask my other questions.

You say to go to Christ's church. The problem is that I do not know what church is Christ's. To tell you the truth, I have never even met my current bishop. On the subject of seminary, yes I went for two and a half years and my experience with it was horrible. The last year and a half, I do not think I felt the spirit once. On reading the BoM, like I said I tried. I would get halfway through it and have gotten nothing out of it. No feeling, no truths, nothing.

First of all "religion" existed LONG LONG LONG before and WITHOUT the death of Christ on the cross. This statement tells me that you have much maturing to do and I hope you will take a moment to grow before leaving the church behind.

The part you bolded, was out of context. What I meant was that without Christ's death, there would be no Christian religion.

[Elphaba]

What a difference thirty years makes.

When I was 12 or 13-years old, we were explicitly told not to wear a cross, ever. It was a symbol of Christ's death, and all of the other horrors most of you already know, such as his gory death.

About this time, my music teacher, who I no idea had even taken the lessons, joined the Church. As he lived in a different ward, I did not think anything of his baptism and conversion; thus he had been given the call to teacher earlier morning seminary.

Of course, as kids that age were sometime wont to do, Brother Karamenko was aghast when we told him Mormons do not wear the cross. He could not believe this, as to him the cross was a powerful symbol to him, and one that he revered. In that particular seminary class he was visibly upset, and actually left the class alone; however, I met him in Church again a few months later, and he seemed fine.

Another example, which I have given before: I lived in Boston, Massachusetts. We had a woman who had converted to the Church, but she attended Church wearing pants. To us this was sacrilegious, though if it were today, I don't think anyone would think much of it. But at the time, Women just DID NOT go to Church in pants, and really let her have it about wearing pants. Women just DID NOT do that!

She was highly offended by our self-righteous manner of telling her she was wrong, and we were right! Like Mr. Maramenko, she had been a convert as well, and did not take lightly to being told what to do. Although, she did wear dresses from that day forward.

One last story I've told her before. When I lived in Boston, there was a yount man, okay, a GORGEOUS man, who had joined the Church. He was given the opportunity to speak one Sunday. And I will NEVER forget what he said.

This man got up and told us how we should not put the emphasis on Mormon that we did. He thought the Book of Mormon was not an appropriate title, because the book spoke of Christ, and His message. He gave a number of examples where we, in the early '70s, were giving the wrong impression. He said while Moroni was an explemplary personage, he did not done anything to warrant his name on the book.

We were aghast. Everyone avoided him for the rest of the meeting, and I suspect he left after I did, as he didn't have that feeling every more.

FF 35 years, and what he suggested has come true. The Church of Jesus Christ is the Church's focus. He had spoken that day about how the Church's official letterhead, which was used in the '70s, emphasized the word "Mormon" when in fact it should have been emphasizing Christ.

In fact, he felt that most of the Church's standardized business forms did not emphasize Christ, but Mormon. This was because that is how most people recognized the Church, so it is under stable.

But I think every one of these people have a valid point, and this is being addressed by the Church. And that is a good thing.

As far as wearing a cross, I say go for it. If it is symbolic to you, and you want to wear it, then you should wear it. The Church should not dictate to you what you want or don't want to do with your bodies beyond the temple ceremonies.

However, I have never been through the temple, so I admit there is probably more about wearing these symbols than I am aware. I just take President Hinckley's comments to heart about how we would learn from each other if we would listen. Mormons' take on the early doctrine from other religious instructions, such as Catholics, are a common.

We all learn from each other. Especially doctrine from other religious institutions such as Catholics, who see wearing the cross as a religious commandment. (I do not know if the Catholics are united in this. I am only quoting two Catholic friends of mine.)

So, I think Latter-day Saints would do well to be considerate of other people's religious symbols they wear. This is one of the reasons I loved President Hinckley. He taught inclusiveness, and respect for those not who are not Latter-Day Saints.

Elphaba

Edited July 3, 2008 by Elphaba

[Islander]

Why is it that a bold affirmation of the truth is offensive? Why is it that I must temper my speech in regards to the things that I know to be absolutely true?

I claim the right to be politically incorrect on account of declaring that I know what I know and stating without ambiguity or fear that is it an absolute fact. That some may not agree, it is their prerogative and I acknowledge that. Should they take offense on me direct and precise about what I know and believe is also their choice. They are free to do and believe as they please. I am entitled to my opinion just like anyone else in regards to what I see and I make no apology for that.

[Adeipho]

Why is it that a bold affirmation of the truth is offensive? Why is it that I must temper my speech in regards to the things that I know to be absolutely true?

I claim the right to be politically incorrect on account of declaring that I know what I know and stating without ambiguity or fear that is it an absolute fact. That some may not agree, it is their prerogative and I acknowledge that. Should they take offense on me direct and precise about what I know and believe is also their choice. They are free to do and believe as they please. I am entitled to my opinion just like anyone else in regards to what I see and I make no apology for that.

Who are you quoting or is it just plagiarize

hour?

[Islander]

Who are you quoting or is it just plagiarize

hour?

I can see you are surprised at the sight of a strong and well formulated opinion. :)

[Adeipho]

I can see you are surprised at the sight of a strong and well formulated opinion. :)

hardly, with each breath I take a strong and well formulated opinion is given to the world. It just seemed a little scripted is all.

[MrNirom]

The Gospel according to MrNirom:

Exodus 20: 4-5

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

This scripture tells us what we are not to do. How many people do you know that have the Cross in their churches.. and kneel to it.. and pray in front of it? Carry it and kiss it? Almost in a way.. worship it? This is the 2nd Great Commandment. We choose not to be associated with the "Standard Symbol" of the rest of the Christian World. We are a peculiar people.

[Islander]

hardly, with each breath I take a strong and well formulated opinion is given to the world. It just seemed a little scripted is all.

:):):):)

[WANDERER]

I don't wear a cross or own one. I have as a kid. I owned a really cool one with a minute, not very obvious, lense on the front and when you looked into it you could read the Lord's prayer (my sister and I shared this one, my sister eventually gave it to me as it was hers and I wore it the most and I remember when we both decided to give it to a friend in hospital...) and another that was given as a gift from a boy (aged 12 LOL...he'd been through some difficult things in his life, he had a close friendship with a young girl that died from cancer...I underwent a difficult life as a kid...the gesture was nice and there was a bit of a chat about whether I should accept gifts from boys or not at a young age LOL, and we decided it was okay)...and a little fillagree one from my sister (my first year of secular university..I'd bypassed the Christian one due to the fact that it was too much financial pressure for the family but it was a difficult decision and it helped because of the condemnation I felt)...all presents. Though my mother drew the line at one with a present and rather graphic Christ on it that had been given to me (religion teacher...it was something given to everyone) and said it was 'not right'..it was rather large and gothic inspired. So I didn't wear it.

I gave the others away long before I hit my mid-twenties...it seemed right and it's one of the few very personal things that you give people when they're undergoing huge troubles that people understand through a blanket of misery. One went to a friend whose father committed suicide. The other went to a guy that was depressed...who I wasn't interested in that way and wanted to do the right thing by, and it was all I could think of.

I find it painful that people would hurt someone's feelings over wearing a cross. It's not right to do that...whether they choose to wear one...or not. In the same way, I don't think I'd wear one if it upset others. The spirit in which you wear one is more important than the symbol...and .... the way in which you treat others on this is more important than the symbol.

In all things understanding and compassion.

[prisonchaplain]

This scripture tells us what we are not to do. How many people do you know that have the Cross in their churches.. and kneel to it.. and pray in front of it? Carry it and kiss it? Almost in a way.. worship it? This is the 2nd Great Commandment. We choose not to be associated with the "Standard Symbol" of the rest of the Christian World. We are a peculiar people.

You might be surprised to know that Jehovah's Witnesses agree with you on this one. Although, they'd level the same accusations against you for the plethora of Jesus statures and pictures, as well as "idols" of the angel Moroni. You might want to think twice before going down this particular road...especially since it's one that, to my knowledge, is not traveled by church leaders.

[Over43]

My sister in law gave my wife a gorgeous crucifix for her birthday last year. My wife was ill, and we all thought she might not make it. She did, but aside from that, when she opened it my brother who hasn't been in a Ward building in 30 years pops off with "Geez, Mormons don't wear crosses!" My sister in law was embarrassed. My wife looked uncomfortable.

She has never worn it, which I think is a shame because 1) it was a gift during a time when she was ill, and 2) it is beautiful.

Maybe I'll start wearing it. Although as fat as my neck has become it might be a bracelette.

Jon

[MrNirom]

You might be surprised to know that Jehovah's Witnesses agree with you on this one. Although, they'd level the same accusations against you for the plethora of Jesus statures and pictures, as well as "idols" of the angel Moroni. You might want to think twice before going down this particular road...especially since it's one that, to my knowledge, is not traveled by church leaders.

Chaplain,

As I stated.. this was the Gospel according to me. I don't know what the church leaders say about it. This is my opinion.

Being raised Catholic.. I do have some issues with it. I kinda know it first hand and practiced it for years. We were encouraged to put a cross with Jesus hanging on it above every bed. To put him in our cars on the dash. To make the sign of the cross anytime we saw something that bothered us. We use to go into the church and kneel before the giant statue of Christ being crucified on the cross.. and pray to it. As a matter of fact, the rest of my family is still Catholic. So I do understand. I don't do that anymore.

In the book of revelation, the Apostle John said (Rev. 14:6) "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth" That angel was Moroni, and his place on the top of the temple is significant because of his participation in the restoration of the gospel to the earth in these latter days.

We don't stand outside of the temples and worship him or pray to him or kneel to him. I think the worst thing we do is probably take a picture of him way up there.

Neither pictures of Jesus nor Jesus statures are found inside the chapels where we do worship. So if they level the same accusations.. it would not quite be the same. :)

[prisonchaplain]

Mr.Niron, I know of what you speak. We Protestants are sometimes guilty of ignorantly accusing Catholics of praying to Mary, of bowing before idols of saints, etc. And, in some folk practices, the line may indeed be crossed between using statuary and symbols for reflection, and misplacing adoration towards the objects themselves.

IMHO, most of this is not anything close to a violation of the 2nd Commandment. On the other hand, we prefer to have no statues, crosses, or pictures of Jesus decorating our house. If I need religious art, some of the best is nicely crafted scripture verses.

[MrNirom]

Mr.Niron, I know of what you speak. We Protestants are sometimes guilty of ignorantly accusing Catholics of praying to Mary, of bowing before idols of saints, etc. And, in some folk practices, the line may indeed be crossed between using statuary and symbols for reflection, and misplacing adoration towards the objects themselves.

IMHO, most of this is not anything close to a violation of the 2nd Commandment. On the other hand, we prefer to have no statues, crosses, or pictures of Jesus decorating our house. If I need religious art, some of the best is nicely crafted scripture verses.

Chaplain,

I can see your point. I did post the 2nd commandment just as a reference point and guidance tool. If one sees themself getting to this point.. one should reflect and maybe reconsider.

Joseph Smith once said something like.. I teach them the doctrine.. and they govern themselves.

I notice that when I am speaking here in these forums.. I am encourage to speak my mind and feelings. But when I am actually with people.. I may think things.. but never speak them.. and most of the time I am re-evaluating my thinking.. and asking the Lord for forgiveness, and try not to do it again. It is so easy here that when you do say how you feel.. it is always IMHO. Kinda gets us off the hook a bit if we are wrong..

And believe me.. I am wrong often.

[Moksha]

One of the things I like about the Orthodox Church is all their Icons and iconic art. Of course, I like all the murals and video presentations in the LDS Visitors Centers too.

When Mike Reed talked about the early 20th Century plan for a huge Cross to be erected on one of the Salt Lake Peaks, I couldn't help but think that would have been a marvelous idea that unforunately never came to fruition.

[Traveler]

We know from scriptures that at one time an image of a snake was used as a symbol as commanded by G-d. By this we can know that that imagery has place within the community of believers. But when the snake became more than a reminder of covenants and became connected with worship G-d commanded that the image be destroyed.

It is my personal belief that during the early history of Christianity, Pagan influences not only influenced the traditions but infiltrated and became a part of worship to the point that such symbols became defining symbols of what was a Christian.

I am most pleased to learn that many Protestants have backed away from the imagery of the cross in worship choosing instead to use the image as a reminder of something sacred and not as a sacred or defining object.

There is no question in my mind that Jesus never intended, implied or is pleased that the symbol of the cross be thought of as a defining image as to what constitutes a Christian or a Christian place of worship.

Much more than the symbol of the cross Jesus commanded that his disciples be identified by their love and compassion for others and in this I agree with the Jehovah Witnesses – the cross, through traditions and motions of time, has become more a false image of mistaken and misunderstood Christianity.

I have posted in the past that if someone uses anything before or other than love and compassion for others, as something to define what a Christian is - I believe whatever they substitute will not please G-d.

The Traveler

Edited July 4, 2008 by Traveler

[jimuk]

I myself have no problem with others wearing a cross, if thats what floats their boat so be it, today it is mostly worn as just another piece of jewelry by some that do, and those that do not believe in Jesus Christ.

Personally, i would not wear this as a symbol of my faith, if my son was tortured with a knife which then led to his death i would not need a knife hanging around my neck from a gold or any other chain to remind me of this terrible pain he must have gone through before he finally died. I know every day what Jesus done for us, and i love him for it, and i can testify, with a surety not hope but a surety that he and our father in heaven love each and every one of us, or we would not be here today.

So no you do not need a cross, if you need reminding take a look at the smiling faces all around when you go to meetings, and at the babies that are so loved that they need no baptism until they have been around for eight years, at the missionarys who save up their own money to be able to spread the words of heavenly father, this is "The church of Jesus christ of Latter day saints" Not a piece of Jewelry.

Please prey about these things that are troubling you, either on your own or with a couple of missionary's, these guys really know how to get through to heavenly father, they have helped me no end in the past.

[MrNirom]

One of the things I like about the Orthodox Church is all their Icons and iconic art. Of course, I like all the murals and video presentations in the LDS Visitors Centers too.

When Mike Reed talked about the early 20th Century plan for a huge Cross to be erected on one of the Salt Lake Peaks, I couldn't help but think that would have been a marvelous idea that unforunately never came to fruition.

Moksha,

In another thread that is closed now.. I asked you about your tag lines.. What I meant by my question was How do you do that. I have not figured it out.