Something about polytheism puzzling me...

[tsubotsubo]

Well, I have a few atheist friends, who are now pretty much anti-mormon (probably because I myself am a mormon, and they're interested in what is such a large part of my life).

We often get into debates, and I feel I win most of these, but there's something that they asked me and I simply can't answer.

What I'm about to do may sound patronizing, but I'm gonna break down some of the basic beliefs of our religion, and if I've got one of these wrong, you can correct me.

We believe that God (Elohim), Jesus (Jehovah) and the Holy Ghost are not the same person.

We believe that the three of them are gods, or deities, therefore we a polytheists (which people find strange, probably because they're not used to the concept or it reminds them of the Ancient Greeks or something).

We also believe that us, as humans, can progress and become like our Heavenly Parents (again, people see this as blasphemy, probably because they're not familiar with it).

We also believe that to become gods we need to come to Earth to get a body.

Here's where the problem is. The Holy Ghost is a god, yet he hasn't got a body, and Jesus is a god (and THE god of the Old Testement), yet he didn't have a body until he was born (in the New Testement).

How is this possible? Is one of my statements I wrote incorrect, and the cause of my misunderstanding, or is it some deep doctrine or something?

Thanks for the help in advance. :)

[Misshalfway]

Gaining a body is essential to progression. It is essential to and part of salvation for all mankind and exhaltation for the elect. But I am not sure that it is prerequisite for Godhood. It is clear that gaining a body is essential for us to progress and to become 'like' our Father. Jesus, as we know, gained his body and the HG will too at some point when his mission is complete, so it must be essential for them too, but perhaps the timing of such is measured differently than we can now comprehend.

I think the answer to your question has yet to be revealed. I know Jesus made it clear he was Alpha and Omega. In my thinking, members of the Godhead must be different than us. And even though we understand that one day we will become God's I am not sure what that means really. The Father will never cease to be our Father and he was a savior and even though I may progress, I will never be that. All we have been told is that we will progress and gain all that he hath.

In my mind, members of the Godhead are different than we are, period.

Edited July 23, 2008 by Misshalfway

[NeuroTypical]

We believe that the three of them are gods, or deities, therefore we a polytheists (which people find strange, probably because they're not used to the concept or it reminds them of the Ancient Greeks or something).

I'm not good at big words, but I think what we are is closer to "Henotheism" than "Polytheism"

Henotheism basically says we all only have a relationship with one God and one only, but allow for the possibilities of other divine beings. So, we worship the Father, pray to the Father, and we think of the three of them as a Godhead in perfect harmony and unity.

Polytheism involves different gods who sometimes don't see eye to eye, fight each other, use humans as pawns, etc. The word just doesn't fit LDS theology.

LM

[DigitalShadow]

We often get into debates, and I feel I win most of these

I'd just like to point out that no one really 'wins' religious debates. Its all subjective, and usually both parties go away thinking they 'won' the debate.

I'm not good at big words, but I think what we are is closer to "Henotheism" than "Polytheism"

Henotheism basically says we all only have a relationship with one God and one only, but allow for the possibilities of other divine beings. So, we worship the Father, pray to the Father, and we think of the three of them as a Godhead in perfect harmony and unity.

Polytheism involves different gods who sometimes don't see eye to eye, fight each other, use humans as pawns, etc. The word just doesn't fit LDS theology.

LM

I have talked to many different people about religion and I have never even heard the word "Henotheism." Kudos for expanding my vocabulary :)

[Dr T]

I'm not good at big words, but I think what we are is closer to "Henotheism" than "Polytheism"

Henotheism basically says we all only have a relationship with one God and one only, but allow for the possibilities of other divine beings. So, we worship the Father, pray to the Father, and we think of the three of them as a Godhead in perfect harmony and unity.

Polytheism involves different gods who sometimes don't see eye to eye, fight each other, use humans as pawns, etc. The word just doesn't fit LDS theology.

LM

bold mine

pol·y·the·ism [pol-ee-thee-iz-uhm, pol-ee-thee-iz-uhm]Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun the doctrine of or belief in more than one god or in many gods.

[unixknight]

I think you should be careful about going into the deeper stuff though. People who want an excuse to think we're weird will find fertile ground with some of our more unique beliefs. People often can't handle it until they've first gotten used to the core doctrines and can more easily put the more advanced stuff in a meaningful context.

Milk before meat, my friend.

[VisionOfLehi]

bold mine

pol·y·the·ism [pol-ee-thee-iz-uhm, pol-ee-thee-iz-uhm]Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun the doctrine of or belief in more than one god or in many gods.

Main Entry:poly·the·ism Pronunciation: \ˈpä-lē-(ˌ)thē-ˌi-zəm\ Function:noun Etymology:French polytheisme, from Late Greek polytheos polytheistic, from Greek, of many gods, from poly- + theos godDate:1613 : belief in or worship of more than one god

[Dr T]

Right, but that does not change the meaning of a belief in more than one god being poly-(multiple) therefore polytheism. You can try and change the meaning of a word but it's still belief in multiple gods.

[FunkyTown]

Straight from dictionary.com, Dr. T:

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This

hen·o·the·ism Audio Help /ˈhɛnəθiˌɪzəm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[hen-uh-thee-iz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun 1. the worship of a particular god, as by a family or tribe, without disbelieving in the existence of others.

2. ascription of supreme divine attributes to whichever one of several gods is addressed at the time.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Origin: 1855–60; < Gk heno-, comb. form of hén one (neut. of heǐs) + theism]

We're not polytheistic.

[Dr T]

my definition was from dictionary.com too and it was the only definition given. Hmmm, interesting that they are different. It's a simple word, etymology poly and theism is not hard to understand.

[scdoyle]

We also believe that us, as humans, can progress and become like our Heavenly Parents (again, people see this as blasphemy, probably because they're not familiar with it).

This how I explained it to my non-member mom.

My father helped create me and I have the abilty to be just like him. I can grow up to be a man like him, get married like him, have kids and be a father like him. I can be just LIKE him, but I will never BE him or replace him. He will always be father no matter what. Makes complete sense to me and my mom understood what I was saying.

[bytor2112]

Well, I have a few atheist friends, who are now pretty much anti-mormon (probably because I myself am a mormon, and they're interested in what is such a large part of my life).

We often get into debates, and I feel I win most of these, but there's something that they asked me and I simply can't answer.

What I'm about to do may sound patronizing, but I'm gonna break down some of the basic

beliefs of our religion, and if I've got one of these wrong, you can correct me.

We believe that God (Elohim), Jesus (Jehovah) and the Holy Ghost are not the same person.

We believe that the three of them are gods, or deities, therefore we a polytheists (which people find strange, probably because they're not used to the concept or it reminds them of the Ancient Greeks or something).

We also believe that us, as humans, can progress and become like our Heavenly Parents (again, people see this as blasphemy, probably because they're not familiar with it).

We also believe that to become gods we need to come to Earth to get a body.

Here's where the problem is. The Holy Ghost is a god, yet he hasn't got a body, and Jesus is a god (and THE god of the Old Testement), yet he didn't have a body until he was born (in the New Testement).

How is this possible? Is one of my statements I wrote incorrect, and the cause of my misunderstanding, or is it some deep doctrine or something?

Thanks for the help in advance. :)

This is from a talk by Elder Bruce R McConkie, "The mysteries of Godliness"... hope it helps.

Let us ponder these basic concepts:

1. God is the Supreme Being. He is the only supreme and independent being in whom all fulness and perfection dwells. He is the Creator, Preserver, and Upholder of the universe and all that in it is. He is without beginning of days or end of life, and by him all things are. He is the object of all proper worship and from him all good gifts flow. He presides over and governs all things and therefore has no equal. That there is and can be only one supreme being is axiomatic. There can be three equal beings who possess the same character, perfections, and attributes, but there is and can be only one who is supreme, who is the head, and to whom all others are subject.

2. He is a holy man and has a body of flesh and bones. It is written: "No unclean thing can dwell . . . in his presence; for, in the language of Adam, Man of Holiness is his name, and the name of his Only Begotten is the Son of Man, even Jesus Christ" (Moses 6:57). That is, he is Ahman, and the name of his Only Begotten is Son Ahman.

And as it was with Jesus, the Son, who came forth in the resurrection with a glorified, immortal, resurrected body of flesh and bones, so it was with his Father before him. Joseph Smith said: "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!" (Teachings, p. 345). Truly, truly, it is written: "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's" (D&C 130:22).

3. He is the Eternal Father, the Father of Spirits. God lives in the family unit and is the Father of Spirits, of spirit men and spirit women, hosts of whom are now being born as mortal beings. He is, "Our Father which art in heaven" (Matthew 6:9). We are his children, and we are governed by his laws and are subject to his chastisement, all of which caused Paul to say: "We have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?" (Hebrews 12:9).

4. He is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. Let there be no mistake about this. God has all power; he is the Almighty. He knows all things, and there is nothing in all eternity, in universe upon universe, that he does not know. Joseph Smith so taught, and all our scriptures, ancient and modern, bear a concordant testimony. He is not a student god, and he is not progressing in knowledge or learning new truths. If he knows how to create and govern worlds without number, and all that on them is, what is there left for him to learn? Also, he is omnipresent, meaning that by the power of his spirit he is in all things, and through all things, and round about all things.

5. What is the nature of God's life? The name of the kind of life that God lives is eternal life. One of his names, speaking in the noun sense, is Eternal, and he simply uses that name to describe the kind of life he lives. Eternal life consists of two things: (1) life in the family unit and (2) having the fulness of the Father, which is all power in heaven and on earth. It is because God has eternal life that he became the Father of Spirits as well as the creator and governor of all things.

6. Whence came the plan of salvation? It is simply the laws and ordinances by obedience to which men may gain eternal life and thus become as God is and be gods in their own right. Joseph Smith said: "God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. . . . He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits" (Teachings, p. 354).

7. Who are Elohim and Jehovah? They are the Father and the Son. The Everlasting Elohim is the Great God by whom all things are; the Eternal Jehovah is his Firstborn in the spirit and his Only Begotten in the flesh. Jehovah is thus our Elder Brother, and as such was subject to the same plan of salvation, the plan given of Elohim for the salvation of all his children.

While yet in the premortal existence, Jehovah advanced and progressed until he became like unto God. Under the direction of the Father he became the Creator of worlds without number, and thus was himself the Lord Omnipotent.

[Moksha]

We are mainly Henotheistic, meaning we acknowledge a bunch of Gods, but only worship one specific triumvirate.

[Moksha]

Straight from dictionary.com:

hen·o·the·ism –noun 1. the worship of a particular god, as by a family or tribe, without disbelieving in the existence of others.

Some may worship the Four Winds, while others may worship Krom. The important thing is that they should all release good Karma into the Universe.

:)

[Traveler]

bold mine

pol·y·the·ism [pol-ee-thee-iz-uhm, pol-ee-thee-iz-uhm]Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun the doctrine of or belief in more than one god or in many gods.

Since the Bible tells us the Satan is "the G-d of this world" and since I believe the bible is correct - I am a polytheist

The ancient word discribing G-d as "one" G-d is "ehad". If this word is interperted to be singular (which should be determined by the way it is used) the Hebrew of single or counting "one" means that there are not parts or divisions. Many well educated Jews try to point this out to some Christians that as long as Christians recognize the persons of the Father - Son and Holy Ghost they are polytheist because if violates the Hebrew expression of ehad as a singular notion.

Christians that think there is something wrong with LDS polytheism but that there is nothing wrong with the Trinity are not much more that the pot calling the kettle black.

The Traveler

[VisionOfLehi]

Right, but that does not change the meaning of a belief in more than one god being poly-(multiple) therefore polytheism. You can try and change the meaning of a word but it's still belief in multiple gods.

I wasn't trying to change the meaning.

You can't go to one dictionary and try to get all the nuances of a single word.

The nuance of polytheism implies you worship multiple gods. Yes, you believe in multiple, but it has the connotation of worshiping them all.

Henotheism is more accurate, because it clarifies that only one is worshiped.

[Dr T]

Again Traveler, One God manifested as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Like 1 to the third power (sort of). One God, not three.

[tubaloth]

We also believe that to become gods we need to come to Earth to get a body.

Here's where the problem is. The Holy Ghost is a god, yet he hasn't got a body, and Jesus is a god (and THE god of the Old Testement), yet he didn't have a body until he was born (in the New Testement).

How is this possible? Is one of my statements I wrote incorrect, and the cause of my misunderstanding, or is it some deep doctrine or something?

I have posted this a couple of other times, but can’t find any recent one. This is the way I see it. (I won’t really call this completely official doctrine, but I think it is close enough).

As it came time for somebody to full fill the role of Savior and Redeemer, Heavenly Father in the end Chose Jesus Christ. At this point in time Christ doesn’t have any power independent of himself, the power Christ has, was through (what I call) a calling of being the Savior and Redeemer, and even Creator. Christ didn’t do these things based off of some power that he had independently. He had this power through his Heavenly Father, this doctrine that is called “Divine investiture”. This means Christ did what he did, through the power of his Father. We have the same type of thing happen now. With the priesthood power we are given to act in God’s name. That’s really what Christ had, being a spirit, and having the calling of Savior and Redeemer (which is part of the Godhead) Christ was given the power to perform the duties of his calling.

The next part comes from Section 93. In this section (and I won’t site versus, so just read the section) we learn how Christ, after coming to this earth overcome the effects of the fall just like all of us. It speaks of Christ going from Grace to Grace. That Christ from the start hadn’t received of the “fullness” of God yet, but as he grew, he received the fullness from his Father. So after Christ was resurrected (and had passed through mortal life) Christ had now gained all his father had, and now had the power of God independent of him. (So only after Christ has passed through mortal life did he become a God in the full sense)

The same thing holds true for the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost’s power isn’t anything He has, the power is in his calling to be the Comforter. We believe that at some time the Holy Ghost won’t be needed (probably when Christ comes) that the Holy Ghost well then gain a body, and pass through some mortal life, and then reach godhood.

I hope that helps.

Edited July 24, 2008 by tubaloth

[Vanhin]

I worship Jesus Christ just like I do the Father, who is the Supreme Ruler of the Universe. They are one God.

What interesting about the Apostle Bruce R McConckie, is how his understanding of the divinity of Christ grew along with his testimony of him. Consider a quote from one of the beautiful Hymns of the Church penned by Elder McConckie:

3. I believe in Christ—my Lord, my God!

My feet he plants on gospel sod.

I’ll worship him with all my might;

He is the source of truth and light.

I believe in Christ; he ransoms me.

From Satan’s grasp he sets me free,

And I shall live with joy and love

In his eternal courts above.

4. I believe in Christ; he stands supreme!

From him I’ll gain my fondest dream;

And while I strive through grief and pain,

His voice is heard: “Ye shall obtain.”

I believe in Christ; so come what may,

With him I’ll stand in that great day

When on this earth he comes again

To rule among the sons of men.

31243, Hymns, I Believe in Christ, no. 134

Text: Bruce R. McConkie, 1915–1985. © 1972 IRI

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[Justice]

LOL at your avatar image, Dr T.

My wife heard of a sign in a doctor's office that read:

Unattended children will be give a latte and a free puppy.

LOL

Sorry, continue...

[tsubotsubo]

Thanks very, very much everyone. :) I really appreciate the help, although I was more concerned about the Holy Ghost not having a body, but being a deity, than I was about the definition of a polytheist. So the Holy Ghost will be getting a body in the future, but can't have one yet because he needs to be able to dwell within us?

[tubaloth]

Yes, for the calling (read my post) that the Holy Ghost has. Being a Spirit is the only way he can fullfill this calling. Once his calling isn't need, then the Holy Ghost well get a mortal body, but we just assume that.

[Moksha]

Yes, for the calling (read my post) that the Holy Ghost has. Being a Spirit is the only way he can fullfill this calling. Once his calling isn't need, then the Holy Ghost well get a mortal body, but we just assume that.

In the meantime, He probably feels like a clay vase caught between two iron vases.

[rameumptom]

Many LDS have a mistaken concept that to be a god, one must be all or nothing. Instead, the gospel shows us that there are gradations and levels of beings.

Abraham 3 shows us that a being can be a divine god as a spirit. Are they complete or received their full glory? No. But they have achieved godhood in many things still. Those noble and righteous spirits that surrounded God are not all the spirits that come to earth - but only a select group that had already gained godhood in the Spirit World, and now would have to continue in that vein to be exalted gods in the life after mortality.

When the Psalmist, and later Jesus stated, "are ye not gods?", it was stating it in the present, and not future form. One can be a god, and not yet received a fullness. One can also have been a god in the premortal existence, and fall from that glory during mortality (or in the premortal existence).

While Mormons can be described as polytheists, so can all Christians who believe in the Trinity. Just ask a Jew or Muslim if Trinitarians are monotheists or not. However, the term, henotheist, is more accurate in describing our belief in multiple gods, but worship of one.

Anciently, the Jewish and Semitic view was of a divine council with El Elyon as the head God, with about 70 divine sons. El Elyon gave to each an earthly kingdom to be king over, with Jehovah receiving the prize, Israel. These gods fought with one another, often losing a kingdom to another. Eventually, in the Jewish lore, Jehovah vanquished the others and became god of all the Earth under El Elyon.

This is still found in the Bible, with Isaiah 6 showing the divine council. Job 1 tells of Satan and other sons of El Elyon going to Jehovah and challenging him for the kingdom of Israel. Jehovah ends up winning. The Bible has many other instances, but these two will suffice for now. IOW, the ancient Jews were also henotheists, believers and worshipers of an anthropomorphic god, Jehovah; who was god under the direction of his Father, El Elyon.

[rameumptom]

My view on the Holy Ghost is that it is a calling, not a specific individual. It could be a training position for future mortal responsibilities. Once that being's time to come to mortality comes up, he is released, and another called.

Say, for instance, Michael was the first Holy Ghost. He comes to earth in mortality when his time comes, and Gabriel is called as the second counselor/Holy Ghost, etc. This would explain why Michael was involved in the creation of the earth, but we don't hear much about the Holy Ghost in it. It would also explain how the Holy Ghost can come down and get a body, and still have a Holy Ghost available to do the work.

Of course, this is speculation, and I won't insist on it being correct. But it makes sense to me.