Swaying With The Tides of Popular Opinion Today

[Prodigal_Son]

I'm sure many of you have noticed how the popular opinion of this nation, in general, moves like tides on the shore - based on whatever perspective the media (and others) want to peddle.

It drives me nuts.

In light of the good discussions we have going on with the Gaddianton Robbers and Socialism vs. United Order/Law of Consecration, I just wanted to post part of the late/great President Hinckley's talk given in conference 10/01 - where he addressed the plunge that we, as a nation, were taking...

(Emphasis was added by me, of course...)

I have just been handed a note that says that a U.S. missile attack is under way... I need not remind you that we live in perilous times. I desire to speak concerning these times and our circumstances as members of this Church.

You are acutely aware of the events of September 11, less than a month ago. Out of that vicious and ugly attack we are plunged into a state of war. It is the first war of the 21st century. The last century has been described as the most war-torn in human history. Now we are off on another dangerous undertaking, the unfolding of which and the end thereof we do not know. For the first time since we became a nation, the United States has been seriously attacked on its mainland soil. But this was not an attack on the United States alone. It was an attack on men and nations of goodwill everywhere…

Those of us who are American citizens stand solidly with the president of our nation. The terrible forces of evil must be confronted and held accountable for their actions…

We of this Church know something of such groups. The Book of Mormon speaks of the Gadianton robbers, a vicious, oath-bound, and secret organization bent on evil and destruction. In their day they did all in their power, by whatever means available, to bring down the Church, to woo the people with sophistry, and to take control of the society. We see the same thing in the present situation.

We are people of peace. We are followers of the Christ who was and is the Prince of Peace. But there are times when we must stand up for right and decency, for freedom and civilization, just as Moroni rallied his people in his day to the defense of their wives, their children, and the cause of liberty (see Alma 48:10)…

Unitedly, as a Church, we must get on our knees and invoke the powers of the Almighty in behalf of those who will carry the burdens of this campaign.

No one knows how long it will last. No one knows precisely where it will be fought. No one knows what it may entail before it is over. We have launched an undertaking the size and nature of which we cannot see at this time…

Now, brothers and sisters, we must do our duty, whatever that duty might be. Peace may be denied for a season. Some of our liberties may be curtailed. We may be inconvenienced. We may even be called on to suffer in one way or another. But God our Eternal Father will watch over this nation and all of the civilized world who look to Him. He has declared, "Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord" (Ps. 33:12). Our safety lies in repentance. Our strength comes of obedience to the commandments of God.

[piper]

It is such a wonderful feeling and I thank Heavenly Father for a living prophet to help keep us from being blown around by every wind of doctrine (or popular opinion) that comes our way.

[Wingnut]

Thank you for posting this and reminding us of the comforting words inspired from heaven.

[Still_Small_Voice]

I have heard they did a poll recently in various parts of the world about who the people think was responsible for the attacks on September 11th. In one nation 33 percent of the people polled believed the United States government was responsible for the attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon (it was not people polled inside the U.S.A.). I was astounded that anyone could be blown about by such false information.

[Palerider]

If you believe anything....it can be googled and you will always find info supporting it.......just like landing on the moon never happened....

[Islander]

Elvis continues to be seen now and again around Memphis, so I am told. Google and Wikipedia have become the sole, source for rumor corroboration and summary inquiry. Thus if it is in Google it must be true.

Stupidity is more and more resembling a contagious airborne disease than a self inflicted condition. Oh, brother.

[Prodigal_Son]

Stupidity is more and more resembling a contagious airborne disease than a self inflicted condition.

Soooo Google is the great plague of the last days?

[Palerider]

elvis Continues To Be Seen Now And Again Around Memphis, So I Am Told. Google And Wikipedia Have Become The Sole, Source For Rumor Corroboration And Summary Inquiry. Thus If It Is In Google It Must Be True.

Stupidity Is More And More Resembling A Contagious Airborne Disease Than A Self Inflicted Condition. Oh, Brother.

lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[rameumptom]

The only issue is whether we are staying righteous enough for God to bless us. Right after 9/11, we saw our nation become extremely humble and prayerful, and united. Since then, we've seen our nation lose focus, become greedy, and allow our men to die in foreign wars because we didn't give them the manpower and equipment they needed. Only after we finally did a surge in Iraq did we see things get better there. Now we need a surge in Afghanistan, which we neglected to fight in Iraq, but we don't have the manpower to do it.

Let's hope that the economic and energy woes we are going through will humble Americans again, so that we can become the nation the Lord will uplift through all the dangers in the world today.

[Guest ceeboo]

Since then, we've seen our nation lose focus, become greedy, and allow our men to die in foreign wars because we didn't give them the manpower and equipment they needed. Only after we finally did a surge in Iraq did we see things get better there. Now we need a surge in Afghanistan, which we neglected to fight in Iraq, but we don't have the manpower to do it.

Thank you for that Mrs. Pelosi, excuse me, ram:)

God bless,

Carl

[rameumptom]

I am not nancy pelosi. I am for the war. But as with General Colin Powell, I believe if you are going to go in, you go in with all your guns blazing and win the darned thing. I served in the USAF for 20 years, and while Rumsfeld isn't an evil man, he has shown himself to be too pedantic on issues, not listening to the key players that know what's going on. Bush messed up by surrounding himself with a bunch of neo-cons, rather than true conservatives. The Bush Doctrine is a mess, which will lead us to bankruptcy or global war.

I have no problem with going into Iraq, because they had threatened our nation in many ways. But we should have first finished the job in Afghanistan; or worked over the last several years to beef up our greatly reduced military (thanks to Bush 1 and Clinton), in order to manage two frontal wars at one time. Our guys shouldn't have had to take, leave, and retake Al Sadr City several times. We should only have had to take it once, and ensure that Al Sadr did not gain the power he did. My concern is the ineptness of the current Republicans and Democrats in office, who did not step up to win this war. Bush listened to the wrong people, and the Dems went into political attack mode. It wasn't until McCain insisted that we do a surge, and Bush finally listened, that things began to come back on track in Iraq. Now we have to do the same thing in Afghanistan, but first we have to find soldiers that aren't worn out from 5 years of continuous rotations in and out.

At one point, our nation was united in this war. What happened? Who squandered the unity? I would say both Dems and Republicans have plenty of blame on this one.

[Moksha]

Elvis continues to be seen now and again around Memphis, so I am told.

At the Iceburg Drive-In in Draper, Utah during blue moons and the vernal equinox.

[Guest ceeboo]

My concern is the ineptness of the current Republicans and Democrats in office, who did not step up to win this war. Bush listened to the wrong people, and the Dems went into political attack mode. It wasn't until McCain insisted that we do a surge, and Bush finally listened, that things began to come back on track in Iraq. Now we have to do the same thing in Afghanistan, but first we have to find soldiers that aren't worn out from 5 years of continuous rotations in and out.

Sorry for assuming you were Mrs. pelosi, I do apologize mrs McCain.:):):):)

God bless,

Carl

[rameumptom]

Do I look like I own a beer company? More likely that I'd shoot moose for a living.

[threepercent]

We are involved in terrible wars..... Gordon B. Hinckley, “The Need for Greater Kindness,” Ensign, May 2006, 58–61

And so I venture to say something about the war and the gospel we teach. I spoke of this somewhat in our October conference of 2001. When I came to this pulpit at that time, the war against terrorism had just begun. The present war is really an outgrowth and continuation of that conflict.

The question arises, “Where does the Church stand in all of this?”

......./modern revelation states that we are to “renounce war and proclaim peace”

The Book of Mormon narrative is a chronicle of nations long since gone. But in its descriptions of the problems of today’s society, it is as current as the morning newspaper and much more definitive, inspired, and inspiring concerning the solutions of those problems.

I know of no other writing which sets forth with such clarity the tragic consequences to societies that follow courses contrary to the commandments of God. Its pages trace the stories of two distinct civilizations that flourished on the Western Hemisphere. Each began as a small nation, its people walking in the fear of the Lord. But with prosperity came growing evils. The people succumbed to the wiles of ambitious and scheming leaders who oppressed them with burdensome taxes, who lulled them with hollow promises, who countenanced and even encouraged loose and lascivious living. These evil schemers led the people into terrible wars that resulted in the death of millions and the final and total extinction of two great civilizations in two different eras.

who is the scheming leaders? who oppresses with burdensome taxes? who lulls us with hollow promises. who LEADS us into wars?

note that he also said the people went to war for the correct reasons:

we all must also be mindful of another overriding responsibility, which I may add, governs my personal feelings and dictates my personal loyalties in the present situation:

When war raged between the Nephites and the Lamanites, the record states that “the Nephites were inspired by a better cause, for they were not fighting for … power but they were fighting for their homes and their liberties, their wives and their children, and their all, yea, for their rites of worship and their church.

“And they were doing that which they felt was the duty which they owed to their God” (Alma 43:45–46).

The Lord counseled them, “Defend your families even unto bloodshed” (Alma 43:47).

And Moroni “rent his coat; and he took a piece thereof, and wrote upon it—In memory of our God, our religion, and freedom, and our peace, our wives, and our children—and he fastened it upon the end of a pole.

“And he fastened on his headplate, and his breastplate, and his shields, and girded on his armor about his loins; and he took the pole, which had on the end thereof his rent coat, (and he called it the title of liberty) and he bowed himself to the earth, and he prayed mightily unto his God for the blessings of liberty to rest upon his brethren” (Alma 46:12–13).

It is clear from these and other writings that there are times and circumstances when nations are justified, in fact have an obligation, to fight for family, for liberty, and against tyranny, threat, and oppression.

When all is said and done, we of this Church are people of peace. We are followers of our Redeemer, the Lord Jesus Christ, who was the Prince of Peace. But even He said, “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword” (Matt. 10:34).

This places us in the position of those who long for peace, who teach peace, who work for peace, but who also are citizens of nations and are subject to the laws of our governments. Furthermore, we are a freedom-loving people, committed to the defense of liberty wherever it is in jeopardy. I believe that God will not hold men and women in uniform responsible as agents of their government in carrying forward that which they are legally obligated to do. It may even be that He will hold us responsible if we try to impede or hedge up the way of those who are involved in a contest with forces of evil and repression.

its very complicated, isn't it?

the fact is, even if it is justified, its a terrible war.

[rameumptom]

Yes, and the fact is all wars are terrible. While our military will not be held responsible by God, someone will be held responsible for this war and how it has been mismanaged so that innocent lives have been lost needlessly.

[Prodigal_Son]

It's easy to blame leaders. Such a common scapegoat. But who put those leaders in power? WE THE PEOPLE. So we hold SOME accountability, at the very least. We elect our leaders to power and we tolerate their abuse of it through inaction.

The war is wretched, no doubt. Just like it was for Moroni. But the alternatives are worse. We could hash out woulda/coulda/shoulda's till the cows come home... but it's a complete waste of time beyond placing accountability on proper shoulders.

MY point can be summed up by threepercent's quote from GBH: "It may even be that He will hold us responsible if we try to impede or hedge up the way of those who are involved in a contest with forces of evil and repression."

[rameumptom]

My point is that we, as the American public, need to ensure our leaders are running the war properly, so as to avoid costly mistakes and deaths. We don't need to turn it into another Vietnam, where our Air Force would bomb Hanoi until it was within inches of surrendering, and then be told to stop; so the war ended up continuing for several more years and we lost.

We don't need another LBJ/Nixon/Robert MacNamara-like decision maker for Iraq and Afghanistan. We need a Ronald Reagan/FDR/Truman.

[Prodigal_Son]

My point is that we, as the American public, need to ensure our leaders are running the war properly, so as to avoid costly mistakes and deaths.

It goes beyond the war. We the people fail miserably to hold politicians accountable for both their actions and inactions. We send them to Washington to represent us and our beliefs... but somehow that all gets lost in the bureaucratic shuffle.

We need a better/more-efficient system to make our voices heard to those we've elected...

[pam]

Unfortunately it seems to me that the last few Presidential campaigns we have had to resign to voting for the lesser of two evils. During the Clinton days there was the huge downsizing of our military forces. I've seen base after base after base closed. The Navy has gone from three Naval Training Centers to one. Men now are having to serve several tours of duty overseas. I have to agree that we don't have the resources that I feel we desperately need for now and for the future. I fear the future will only get worse with wars etc.

Yet many are led to believe that our military forces have never been stronger. Having lived and been associated with the military all my life (except the last 12 years) I see a huge difference.

Edited September 16, 2008 by pam

[rameumptom]

In the Book of Mormon, when the people leading the government became wicked the military usually suffered. They ended up insufficiently supplied with manpower and supplies. This was true with King Noah and it was true with the kingmen, who didn't supply Moroni and Helaman, etc.

For me, this can be a tell-tale sign that a nation is getting lazy and corrupt - when things are so comfortable that they neglect their military and ensuring they have the resources needed to win.

Downsizing our military would have been okay, if we had also chosen to downsize our presence in the world. If we were to choose to return to the days of no entangling alliances, then perhaps our current military would suffice. But given we are the military defense for Europe, Canada, Japan, South Korea, the Middle East, and many other locations; we just do not have the resources to maintain it all and run two wars. As it is, Iran is a bigger threat to us than Iraq, but we can't do anything about them as long as we're exhausting our military resources in Iraq.

[Still_Small_Voice]

It goes beyond the war. We the people fail miserably to hold politicians accountable for both their actions and inactions. We send them to Washington to represent us and our beliefs... but somehow that all gets lost in the bureaucratic shuffle.

We need a better/more-efficient system to make our voices heard to those we've elected...

We did have a good system. It was the United States Constitution inspired by God. Unfortunately, when the Federal Government began to tax its citizens in violation of the Constitution the checks and balances began to leave. When the money went to the Federal Government the power went this way as well. Congress is less accountable to its people than the state governments are. The power needs to be placed back in the hands of the people where it belongs. But I don't think it will go this way until things get a lot worst.

[Prodigal_Son]

We did have a good system. It was the United States Constitution inspired by God. Unfortunately, when the Federal Government began to tax its citizens in violation of the Constitution the checks and balances began to leave. When the money went to the Federal Government the power went this way as well. Congress is less accountable to its people than the state governments are. The power needs to be placed back in the hands of the people where it belongs. But I don't think it will go this way until things get a lot worst.

This is exactly why Bob Barr is getting my vote...

[a-train]

As it is, Iran is a bigger threat to us than Iraq, but we can't do anything about them as long as we're exhausting our military resources in Iraq.

Iran is not a threat. Iran wants nothing to do with us. It is big business that wants something to do with Iran.

FACT: In 1953 the U.S. and British governments subverted the democratic process in Iran by bribing Iranian government officials and media to facilitate a coup d'état which was the overthrow of democracy there and the installation of Mohammad Rezā Shāh Pahlavi as dictator. This work of wickedness was known as Operation Ajax. Once installed, the CIA worked with the Shah to build the SAVAK, a new Iranian intelligence organization that captured, murdered, and tortured Iranians working for democracy in Iran. The claimed motive of these activities was to prevent any movement toward communism in Iran, but the only benefactors of the work was big oil.

The negative effects of this wideknown reality are still effecting western relations with Iran. It lead to a bloody revolution in 1979 wherein democracy was restored. Claims that Iran is still undemocratic are simply WRONG.

After the revolution, U.S. and British government hired Saddam to attack Iran, a war that lasted over a decade killing thousands.

Saddam, after being unable to win the war and feeling deceived by the U.S. turned against us and that is when Desert Storm came about. The policy advanced by the neoconservative movement (and big oil) since that time has been a systematic regime change of both Iraq and Iran.

-a-train

Edited September 18, 2008 by a-train

[Prodigal_Son]

I feel like we're hypocrites sometimes, the way we demand improvements elsewhere while we rot from within. Sometimes I fear the US has already peaked and is on the downhill slope...

I support Hinckley's belief that we have to stand up for good and right, for the oppressed and downtrodden, but I think we need to finish our current engagements and then circle the wagons and try to get our OWN act together before worrying about others out there. We're in disarray and not prepared to continue a global fight for Right and Good. We need to clean our own house a bit, reorganize, and find steady ground here in the US of A before working on others...

Just my own $0.02...