Is one better off being LDS but not believing 100% in line with the teachings of the church...

[MarginOfError]

So what does that mean when your heart tells you you should be pro-gay marriage but your mind tells you you should be against it?

[terriebittner]

I think what happens is we can't always tell the mind from the heart. There were two issues that bothered me--not the same two, since this was the 70s and I'm not sure I'd ever even heard of homosexuality then. We hear all these emotional appeals (Don't I deserve to be happy?") and we think we're responding with our heart, but we aren't. Our brain is analyzing the situation.

Did you know homosexuality is only a mortal condition? It didn't exist in pre-mortal life and it won't exist in post-mortal life. Imagine for a moment building life and even a family around this type of relationship on earth and then getting to heaven...and having no attraction at all to this person, because that condition is gone. What a terrible thing to have happen. So the answer to, "Don't I deserve to be happy?" is, "Yes...that's why God doesn't want you in this relationship."

More Good Foundation has a website that walks people who aren't LDS through the information needed to understand this issue.

However, the important thing is really trusting God. We have to learn how to trust Him. When I was struggling with those two issues, the missionaries advised me to decide if Joseph Smith was telling the truth. If he was, then everything else has to be true. We might not like it, because we see with limited mortal vision, and we might not understand it for the same reasons, but God understands it, and someday we will too. So first we build our relationship with God. Shut out those two issues for now and just spend more time getting to know God and to recognize His voice. In time, you'll find those issues just aren't issues anymore. You'll reach a place where you know God well enough to trust Him on this one, and your testimony will be strong enough to sustain you through it.

With one of my initial two issues, one is no longer a concern. As my knowledge has grown, and I've gotten older, I've figured out why God wants it that way. With the other one, I just trust God. He knows why things happen, and I don't have to as long as He does.

[MarginOfError]

I think what happens is we can't always tell the mind from the heart.

I'll have to disagree with you here. I could perform a long diatribe about what 'heart' really means, but suffice it to say that the heart does not always desire what is right/best. Besides, if understanding what our heart was telling us was the only thing we needed, we wouldn't be given the counsel that we would be told in our minds and our hearts--the mind would be completely unnecessary.

That's really the only issue I have with anything you've said. I think you give good advice and great personal insight. Thank you for sharing.

[terriebittner]

I didn't explain myself properly. I don't refer to heart as a place of emotion. I refer to it as the place we generally feel the answers of the Holy Ghost. Our emotions are really in our heads, you know, not our hearts. So we need our minds--intellect, emotion, all of that--and to feel the spirit in our hearts.

[bytor2112]

Satan has masterfully crafted the deception...as usual. Homosexuality, abortion, Gay marriage......all just a further attempt to dissolve the Family. Giving your approval by your vote only enables and seals your approval on a lifetyle that can only lead to heartache.....eternal heartache. I don't undertand the whole gay thing......but these people are surely sons and daughters of God and he loves them just as much as me....but he certainly cannot condone their lifesyle choices......so why should we help the adversary perpetuate the lie that will ultimately lead so many down the road of destruction and eternal seperation from the Father and ultimate happiness? This life is the time to prepare to meet God......not get lost with distractions or make excuses for weaknesses and odd proclivities. We all have challenges.....it's how we respond that has the eternal consequence.

[Hemidakota]

Thanks! This is the core of this issue with voting. As it is for us to daily repent and not to allow us fall prey to our own weaknesses that will bring the wrath of GOD upon us.

[MarginOfError]

I understand what you're saying, and agree that it is technically and 'scripture-ally' correct. However, I still think it's dangerous advice to say 'When you're struggling with doctrine, it's the intellect that's the issue.' (by the way, I think this thread relates more to policy than it does to doctrine).

Sometimes I find it helpful to read Doctrine and Covenants sections 8 and 9 in reverse order, causing advice such as

behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.

But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings....(Sec 9:8-9)

Yea, behold, I will tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart. (Sec 8:2).

So I study something out in my mind. I think and ponder over it. I pray about it. The Holy Ghost is supposed to well in my heart and speak to both my mind and my heart. Now I go through this process, I pray about it, and my mind and my heart disagree. How am I supposed to reconcile the difference? By your advice, I should conclude that Satan's "talking so loud it's hard to hear the pirit over him." While that may be true in some cases, I don't think it's universally true and object to it being offered as one-size-fits-all counsel. Satan doesn't have to speak at all and the Spirit still won't be heard if the Spirit isn't speaking.

[skalenfehl]

...or not LDS at all?

Sorry if this is a vague question, but I it's the best way I could think of to word it.

Is it better to be baptized in the church, but have a few viewpoints that are drastically out of line with the church, or not baptized at all and completely refuse the teachings of the church? Or does it make a difference to the Lord at all?

Anybody know of any scriptural answers to this?

Apologies. I haven't read all the replies. Here are my thoughts. If one knows the law or the laws and does not abide by them, does he not stand condemned? Is he not justified? Can mercy have claim upon one who knows the law but refuses it?

2 Ne. 2: 5, 7, 10, 13

5 And men are instructed sufficiently that they know good from evil. And the law is given unto men. And by the law no flesh is justified; or, by the law men are cut off. Yea, by the temporal law they were cut off; and also, by the spiritual law they perish from that which is good, and become miserable forever.

• • •

7 Behold, he offereth himself a sacrifice for sin, to answer the ends of the law, unto all those who have a broken heart and a contrite spirit; and unto none else can the ends of the law be answered.

• • •

10 And because of the intercession for all, all men come unto God; wherefore, they stand in the presence of him, to be judged of him according to the truth and holiness which is in him. Wherefore, the ends of the law which the Holy One hath given, unto the inflicting of the punishment which is affixed, which punishment that is affixed is in opposition to that of the happiness which is affixed, to answer the ends of the atonement—

• • •

13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.

[Guest DeborahC]

Just curious what are people's thoughts on sexually ambiguous people -- people who are born with BOTH sets of genitalia?

Do you think God makes mistakes?

Do you think they should live alone for their entire lives?

Where do they fit in?

Should they have part of them surgically removed?

Which part?

I guess my point is that this issue is not always cut and dry?

There IS a third gender that has not been addressed?

[Traveler]

...or not LDS at all?

Sorry if this is a vague question, but I it's the best way I could think of to word it.

Is it better to be baptized in the church, but have a few viewpoints that are drastically out of line with the church, or not baptized at all and completely refuse the teachings of the church? Or does it make a difference to the Lord at all?

Anybody know of any scriptural answers to this?

I believe it depends on what one intends or hopes to accomplish in life.

The Traveler

[skalenfehl]

Just curious what are people's thoughts on sexually ambiguous people -- people who are born with BOTH sets of genitalia?

Do you think God makes mistakes?

Do you think they should live alone for their entire lives?

Where do they fit in?

Should they have part of them surgically removed?

Which part?

I guess my point is that this issue is not always cut and dry?

There IS a third gender that has not been addressed?

I've wondered about this. The best I've come up with is:

John 9: 2-3

2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

Does God really make mistakes? Or are people who are born deaf, blind, handicapped or otherwise intentional? When I see people cope with their lot in life as "less than whole" individuals, I see individuals who were likely valiant in the life before and this personality shines through today to teach us that adversity is all in our minds and that tolerance and charity is something that the rest of us can learn without compromise.

Nobody should live alone, but I also believe that in the end, God will make things right. I believe it's up to that individual to determine how to fit in and with God in his/her life, there is nothing that he or she cannot overcome. Remember that in the end, because of Christ's resurrection, all mankind will be redeemed. This means that we will all resurrect with a perfect, immortal and glorified body of flesh and bone without deformity. Everything will be restored to its perfect place. As for surgery, again, I think that's between that person and God. The rest of us have no right to judge. We can only be supportive and loving.

[rameumptom]

Such people with both genitalia can receive a blessing determining their actual gender. It isn't a mistake from God. It is just like all other deformities that naturally occur in life. They are given as challenges for each of us to overcome, helping us to be humble through the weaknesses we are born with (Ether 12).

[MarginOfError]

Perhaps it's my bias as a statistician, but I firmly believe in random occurrences of events (what you might almost call chance). Sometimes things like deformities, disabilities, or multiple genitalia happen merely because it just so happened that all of the necessary components combined appropriately. I don't consider it God making a mistake, I consider it a side effect of mortality and imperfect bodies.

I pass no judgment on anyone with these kinds of challenges and adversities. I do my best to offer them the chance to live a life with as much happiness and righteousness as they seek and am happy to let God account for the rest.

[Islander]

I think the thread, by now, got onto a tangent far off from the original course, but oh well...

Even in spiritual matters, we must consider that what we call "knowledge" often, is nothing but preconceived notions and ideas extracted from conversation or self developed interpretations of what we have read or heard.

We are socialized in the West to elevate the self above all other concepts. We hear constantly about "self-esteem," choice, rights, opinion and other terms that denote our self-absorb nature. We tend to elevate opinion to the level of factual information or even reality.

I submit that, in fact, there is very little that is new and most is a variation or newer version of a pre-existing theme. Pick one, any situation or challenge of the present and it will ebcome obvious that the etiology of it is found quite a few years before.

We are all entitled to our opinions. And as for oneself, we are encouraged to seek guidance and personal revelation from the Spirit. The Lord has chosen His servants and they act as the mouthpiece for Him and guide and direct His affairs and His church. The doctrine and the way we aught to carry our lives according to the principles the Lord has laid out for us has been revealed thru His prophets.

Our task is to seek to gain a witness of the truthfulness of the Gospel and the Restoration. If there is a principle or a commandment that is not clear to us or that we had formed an opinion contrary to revealed truth we should not be discouraged. We should seek to read what the Lord have said in that regard in the scriptures, thru His prophets and servants and even inquire of others about living that very principle and how it blesses their lives.

Once we have received a witness of the Restoration, trying purposefully to maintain our opinion on a matter when is contrary to the principles and doctrine revealed by God is a loosing battle. It will cause tension, heartache, dissolution, frustration and drive the Spirit away as we are in fact trying to force our will and desire to prevail against that of the Lord. To value one's thoughts, opinions and ideas above of those that have been anointed, set apart and called to speak for the Lord places a person in "dark territory." We can see or feel our way out of our own circular logic since we shut the door to existing revelation. The challenge is to understand, why?

[MrNirom]

I think that we have been given scripture not only to teach us about who we are and where we are going.. but the pitfalls of getting there.

The bible teaches us... over and over and over and over again... man became righteous.. man became wicked.. man became righteous... man became wicked.

The Book of Mormon shows us over and over and over again how the righteous built up a church.. and over time.. the people became wicked.. and then a new prophet... and built a church unto righteousness... and then the people become wicked... and Christ appears... and they are righteous.. and over time.. become wicked again.

What is this wicked? Does it mean they turned to sin? Was it that they all turned to murder and rape? Or could it be that they just didn't care about marriage anymore? They didn't pray as often? they started caring more about themselves than others?.. accepted the ways of the world over the ways of God? As they did this.. and God pulled his spirit from them... and gave no more revelation.. they then converted to the ways and precepts of man... and not God.

People.. what has happened to the "saints" in all dispensations... can happen to us! It is a warning! If we as a people don't get it together.. he will remove his spirit from us and find someone who will! He is no respecter of persons. Just because you are LDS does not mean you are choosing the right. If you would have asked any of the saints in the Book of Mormon times if they thought God would remove his spirit from them... I am sure they would have said NO.

Joseph Smith wrote: "Now brother Orson, if this church which is essaying to be the Church of Christ will not help us, when they can do it without sacrifice, with those blessings which God has bestowed upon them. I prophesy-I speak the truth, I lie not - God shall take away their talent and give it to those who have no talent, and shall prevent them from ever obtaining a place of refuge ... ." (DHC 2:48)

Why did Brigham Young say, "Brethren, this church will be led on to the very brink of hell by the leaders of this people." (Attested to by Joshua Jones, 1861, Provo Bowery)

Why did John Taylor say, "The church will go into bondage both temporally and spiritually and in that day the One Mighty and Strong spoken of in the 85th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants would come." A LEAF IN REVIEW Page 235.

Again why did the Lord say, "Beware of pride lest ye become as the Nephites of old". (D&C 38:39)

It is funny... but not really... that I had left the church for 20 years. I decided to get my life back together and come back. And what I could not believe is that NOTHING changed. NOTHING! We are being taught the same things over and over again. Why? Are we not getting it? Are we not doing as we should? If the Lord gives everything to us line upon line.. precept upon precept.. what new line or precept has he given us? None that I can tell... which tells me that we must not be getting it because he is not adding anything new to these lines or precepts... and all we are doing is continually going over the old ones.

It scares me and reminds me of Nephi's words: "And others he will pacify, and lead them away in to carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion, yea, Zion prospereth, all is well - and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell ... . Wo unto him that is at ease in Zion! Wo be unto him that crieth All is well!

This is how the Nephite Nations fell. Don't think it can't happen to us!

Edited October 31, 2008 by MrNirom

[bytor2112]

Mr. Nirom,

The Lord gives to each of us line upon line and precept upon precept......individually....as we are prepared to receive it and act upon it.

[MrNirom]

Mr. Nirom,

The Lord gives to each of us line upon line and precept upon precept......individually....as we are prepared to receive it and act upon it.

Receive what?

[Hemidakota]

Just curious what are people's thoughts on sexually ambiguous people -- people who are born with BOTH sets of genitalia?

Do you think God makes mistakes?

Do you think they should live alone for their entire lives?

Where do they fit in?

Should they have part of them surgically removed?

Which part?

I guess my point is that this issue is not always cut and dry?

There IS a third gender that has not been addressed?

What was Adam before cloning Eve? Genetics mistakes occur everyday in our lives as we keep having mortal progeny since the purest gene pool known as Adam and Eve.

[Islander]

I suggest that before we go on a wild speculative trip, we consider much simpler causal elements to genetic variances. By far, environmental factors have a greater impact in genetics than any other element. Human habitat, adaptations to it, choice in dwelling, food supply , mating and others have changed and impacted genetics in far reaching ways, of which we have but a very limited understanding.

Regardless, when it comes to what God requires of us; obedience to His commandments remains at the top of the list. He WILL sort out the rest. Not everythhing has been revealed not will it be until the Savior comes again. We should "stick" to what we know and shrug our shoulders to the rest

.

[HoosierGuy]

As for me - I believe and support all the Church teaches. If I don’t follow it 100% now it's not because I don’t want to. I'm trying to follow it 100% now. I'm trying to do things that will help me follow it 100%. If don’t follow 100% it's because I'm trying and failing or something. But I am trying to move forward and follow it all. I mean - this is the True Church. We are supposed to follow it all. You think I want to look Heavenly Father in the face and say - "I'm not following your rules."? I did tell him would follow all his rules in the pre-life. So why not follow them now? I'm trying. I need to try harder tho on a lot of things like – eat healthier food!

[pam]

But Hoosier..none of us are 100% perfect in any way. If we were..we wouldn't still be living this mortal life. I think you concentrate too hard and think you have to be 100%. Don't concentrate so much on trying to be that 100% perfect. If you do you set yourself up for failure. Step by step..precept upon precept..day by day. No one is perfect except Christ himself.

[MrNirom]

The teachings of the Gospel are true and truth comes from many sources.

We are told to search out all sources of truth. They all will not be the teachings

of the Church because there are many things that have been revealed.. yet not

understood.. and therefore dismissed.

I remember a quote that Joseph Smith made concerning looking into heaven.

He said.. if you could gaze into heaven for 5 minutes.. you would know more

about it than all that has been written about it. The vision of the Kingdoms of

Heaven were over an hour long. There were many truths that Joseph knew

about that he did not share because they would scream Heresy!

I mean how many of you knew that there was a time that men were sealed

to men? (See Journal of discourses Vol. 9 page 269. Also Manuscript History

of Brigham Young Jan. 16, 1847)

This practice of sealing men to men and even groups was discontinued

evidently through lack of understanding.

There are truths that can be given to an individual that has not been given to

the rest of the church by the prophets. So it is fair to say that those who have

those truths.. can still have them.. and.. still have the truths that the Church teaches.

Sometimes the truths that have been shared with individuals is an expansion

on truth that we do have. If you search for truth.. you will find it.

The teachings of the Church for the General membership is just that.. for the

General membership. If the Lord determines that the General Membership is

not ready for new truths.. he will not reveal it that way. But that does not keep

him from revealing other truths to those that are ready.. who hunger and thirst

for it. Just remember.. you are not given the Authority to TEACH IT TO THE

MEMBERSHIP. That is the Prophet's duty. You can have your understanding..

you can make you comments and understanding known.. but to use your position

in the Church to teach what you have learned.. is not appropriate. In these

forums.. it is alway implicated as what? It is your humble opinion. And so I can

say all of this... IMHO. It doesn't mean that it isn't true.

[Abraham]

Wasn't it Christ who grew line upon line and precept upon precept and he was perfect. Remember the GC talk on knowing enough but not all. It is better to be in the right Gospel, worshipping the right Christ than to remain outside of the wedding feast expecting to get all the light and truth before attempting to enter. If A = B, and B = C, then A must = C. Pi and the pythagoreum therom will come later. Deriviatives will come as long as you are puttng one foot in front of the other. On a temporary basis, it is perfectly acceptable to borrow someone elses testimony even if three are things you can't accept now. One day you will see how it all fits together. Don't strain at a gnat. If you drag that ball and chaiin around you will finally give up. Please read II Nephi 31: 19 18 - 20. I would counsel you to seek revelation, true, real, palpable revelation and the truth will come. Remember the world will never get it - but we must. Salvation was never meant to be cheap. Look what it cost the Savior and the Prophet Joseph. Focus on the atonment, (seeII Nephi Ch 9). Nothing else will really matter.

Thank you for your poignant quesiton and for being on the Lord's side.

BTW - you can see Venus during the day, you just need to know where to look - it is the same with the truths of the Gospel, most cannot see, don't let that disstract you (us).

A infant astronomer,

Abraham