Abortion

[Guest bat]

Originally posted by Jenda+Oct 30 2004, 08:57 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Oct 30 2004, 08:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -bat@Oct 30 2004, 12:27 AM

Originally posted by -Jenda@Oct 29 2004, 07:35 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--bat@Oct 29 2004, 06:40 PM

Please define the word "define" so that I can tell you something that you are know the answer to, but choose semantics and obfuscation instead.

You obviously want to redefine the word "deflower" to mean something it doesn't, so I am giving you the chance.

Is there a rule that in order to be a mormon, you have to engage in semantics and word redefining in conversations? I've noticed that the FAIR kids do this a lot too. Maybe it's one of the ten commandments and I just never heard about it.

I am not Mormon, and it wasn't me who wanted to redefine the word, it was you. Maybe that is the problem. You want to redefine words and others take exception to it.

Just a theory, though.

I was using the commonly understood definition. Appearantly you aren't familiar with it, or refuse to acknowledge it. We can resume this conversation when you get over that, and stop censoring my posts.

[DisRuptive1]

If "deflower" refers to the breaking of the hymen as "Mary was deflowered when her hymen was broken" then it's safe to say that a girl is "deflowered" sometimes when she goes horse back riding or runs really hard or exercises or jumps a lot. So, if that is the case, then it's safe to say that my 3-year old cousin was deflowered when she rode the horsie at her birthday party.

[DisRuptive1]

Actually I personally think "deflowering" means to take away the innocence of someone. To make a non-sexually active person realize their sexual potention and give them that drive to exploit it. But that's just me. It makes it possible for men to deflower younger boys with that definition.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by bat+Oct 30 2004, 11:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bat @ Oct 30 2004, 11:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Jenda@Oct 30 2004, 08:57 AM

Originally posted by -bat@Oct 30 2004, 12:27 AM

Originally posted by -Jenda@Oct 29 2004, 07:35 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--bat@Oct 29 2004, 06:40 PM

Please define the word "define" so that I can tell you something that you are know the answer to, but choose semantics and obfuscation instead.

You obviously want to redefine the word "deflower" to mean something it doesn't, so I am giving you the chance.

Is there a rule that in order to be a mormon, you have to engage in semantics and word redefining in conversations? I've noticed that the FAIR kids do this a lot too. Maybe it's one of the ten commandments and I just never heard about it.

I am not Mormon, and it wasn't me who wanted to redefine the word, it was you. Maybe that is the problem. You want to redefine words and others take exception to it.

Just a theory, though.

I was using the commonly understood definition. Appearantly you aren't familiar with it, or refuse to acknowledge it. We can resume this conversation when you get over that, and stop censoring my posts.

I haven't censored anything. In fact, I have approved every post I've found in the queue.

Since you think I don't know the meaning of the word, I took the opportunity to look it up, and guess what??? It means just what I thought it meant. Gee, imagine that.

deflower (from Wordsmyth)

1. to end a woman's virginity by sexual intercourse.

2. to ravish, violate, or despoil.

deflower (from the American Heritage Dictionary)

1. To take away the virginity of (a woman).

2. To destroy the innocence, integrity, or beauty of; ravage

deflower (from Infoplease)

1. to deprive (a woman) of virginity.

2. to despoil of beauty, freshness, sanctity, etc

[Guest bat]

Bringing to the top, since you don't seem to understand what it takes to make a woman pregnant. I just want you to be clear, since you are obviously confused or deluded or ignorant or something.

[Newt132]

First let me say, I don't agree with abortion unless the baby was a result of rape, incest, or the mother or baby's health is at risk. With that said, here is a situation a friend of mine is in. She is waiting to find out if she is pregnant, by a guy she's been dating a little more than a month. Her first instinct when she realized she was pregnant was to have an abortion, as if she were pregnant she'd have to go off of a blood pressure medication that without she has daily dizzy spells and passes out. It's most likely that she'll end up being a single parent if she keeps the baby. Her boyfriend didn't initially react very well to the prospect of being a father. Would being a single mother and putting her health at risk be enough of a good reason to have an abortion? And where would God stand on this position? Would God be forgiving of her if she had an abortion for those reasons?

[lisajo]

Originally posted by Newt132@Nov 28 2005, 02:13 PM

First let me say, I don't agree with abortion unless the baby was a result of rape, incest, or the mother or baby's health is at risk. With that said, here is a situation a friend of mine is in. She is waiting to find out if she is pregnant, by a guy she's been dating a little more than a month. Her first instinct when she realized she was pregnant was to have an abortion, as if she were pregnant she'd have to go off of a blood pressure medication that without she has daily dizzy spells and passes out. It's most likely that she'll end up being a single parent if she keeps the baby. Her boyfriend didn't initially react very well to the prospect of being a father. Would being a single mother and putting her health at risk be enough of a good reason to have an abortion? And where would God stand on this position? Would God be forgiving of her if she had an abortion for those reasons?

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OH MY GOSH!!!!!! you are kidding right? I am sorry but she got pregnat and she needs to do the respectable thing, She in no way has any of these problems that you mentioned, blood pressure medication is it, there are so many people out there that want to adopt and cant, and so she doesnt not want to take the consiqunces for her acttions so she will just go kill a baby? I dont see were this falls in the line of the Mother being at risk! I asume you must be very young and she also,

[Lindy]

Hello Newt132,

It's a hard question to ask, and harder to answer. I don't think that God gave us the option of abortion...that was man's invention.

This world has gone to sex .... sex without commitments, sex without responsibility, sex without consequences. I just think if you play the game, you take that chance of coming up pregnant. Things happen, and I think that your friend needs to take the responsibility of getting different meds and adjust to the fact that she IS pregnant..

So many unwanted pregnancies....and so many options available nowadays.... But that doesn't mean that all of the options are acceptable in God's eyes.

It shouldn't be the babies fault that "adults" can have sex and then just shrug their shoulders and abort just as quick as a wink. I think it's commendable that your friend is considering how God feels about the whole thing.

If she is a praying type, have her pray. Keep that communication line open with God.... she may need Him more now than ever before.

Tell your friend to hang in there Newt

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Newt132@Nov 28 2005, 03:13 PM

...Her first instinct when she realized she was pregnant was to have an abortion, as if she were pregnant she'd have to go off of a blood pressure medication that without she has daily dizzy spells and passes out...Would being a single mother and putting her health at risk be enough of a good reason to have an abortion?

I think she should consult a doctor about whether her blood pressure medication and the pregnancy would be compatiable. If she can carry the pregnancy to term without any health problems, she could always give the baby up for adoption.

M.

[prisonchaplain]

Another question I have is what are your veiws on stem-cell research and is abortion okay to you in some situations?

First, my political views. I oppose abortion, except in cases of rape, incest, or danger to the mother's life. Furthermore, stem cell research is extremely speculative, and quite frankly, seems to be more about finding a back door approach to legitimizing abortion, than serious research.

Now my personal and religious views. First, I am a man, so this is tough, because I speak of that which I cannot experience. My sense, though, is that the course for victims of rape or incest that would most please God, our Father, would be for her to give birth to the child, and then offer him/her up for adoption. Truly special souls might even raise the child, but, my guess is that the psychological impact of raising the off-spring of such an unholy act would not be spiritually healthy in most cases.

When the mother's life is truly at stake, she has to come first. The child will go into the hands of Jesus, unscathed by this old world.

[DisRuptive1]

When the mother's life is truly at stake, she has to come first. The child will go into the hands of Jesus, unscathed by this old world.

If that is true, abortion is ok. The baby won't suffer but will be given a free ticket to heaven.

Stem Cell Research

Stem cells are taken from blastocysts which would have been destroyed anyways. It's kind of like taking the mold in your shower and studying it rather than spraying disinfectant on it. The stem cells are gained from extra embryos made from in vitro fertilization (sp?). Testing is done with the approval of the parents.

Abortion in cases of rape

If you are to condemn abortion, you must understand why you are condemning it. Do you believe it is murder? Do you believe it weakens our genetic potential (richer people have abortions while the poor procreate thereby dirtying the gene pool)?

Whatever the reason, most people seem to feel that abortion is murder. Hence, abortion in cases of rape is committing a felony when another felony is committed. If you believe two wrongs make a right then this case is logically sound.

But to say abortion is ok because of rape and not ok in cases of consensual sex is to say that you disagree with abortion not because you think it's murder, but because you are against non-procreative consensual sex. You don't want people having consensual sex and not getting pregnant. You want women. who partakes in sexual intercourse to get pregnant.

The difference between rape on consensual sex is about where consent lies. If there is no consent, murder is ok. If there is consent murder is not ok. Do you see the difference?

Opposing abortion except in cases of rape is not because you are against the murdering of little children (although you might be, it doesn't happen to be the greater case here) but because you are against non-procreative sex.

One thing most people don't realize is that CRIMINALIZING ABORTION WILL NOT REDUCE ABORTION. Teaching people how to prevent themselves from getting into a situation that they would consider abortion is the better course of action IF YOU'RE AGAINST ABORTION. That means teaching comprehensive, age-appropriate, sex education.

[prisonchaplain]

Disruptive1 says: If that is true, abortion is ok. The baby won't suffer but will be given a free ticket to heaven.

Does this mean you advocate that we start killing off Christians too? Just because our heavenly Father has mercy on young ones, does not mean we should speed their journey to heaven along.

If you are to condemn abortion, you must understand why you are condemning it. ... Whatever the reason, most people seem to feel that abortion is murder. Hence, abortion in cases of rape is committing a felony when another felony is committed.

You quoted my view on the politics of abortion as if this were my bottom-line view of the ethics. In the same post I said the most pleasing thing to God for a victim to do would be to bare the child and give him/her up for adoption.

Abortion is legal in this land, and in some cases, our tax dollars fund it. I would support legislation that limits the available only to women who are victims of rape or incest, or who's lives are endangered.

One thing most people don't realize is that CRIMINALIZING ABORTION WILL NOT REDUCE ABORTION.

Repeat an assertion enough times and people will believe it is a statistical fact. I have been told that alcohol consumption actually was significantly less during Prohibition. I doubt that there is statistical evidence one way or the other, but I do not believe for a minute that there were 1.5 million illegal abortions a year in this country, prior to legalization. Desperate women of means may still seek abortions, but most will not.

Teaching people how to prevent themselves from getting into a situation that they would consider abortion is the better course of action IF YOU'RE AGAINST ABORTION. That means teaching comprehensive, age-appropriate, sex education.

I'll agree if by comprehensive you mean: Look, by far the best approach for students is abstinence. Here's why (see http://www.4parents.gov for good ideas). Then, birth control methods could be discussed as options for those who choose to engage in sex, despite the difficulties.

[FriendlyJeszy]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck@Oct 22 2004, 01:31 PM

Winnie,

Let's imagine you were dictator for a day and got the final say on all laws governing abortion.  How would you set things up?

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ok we are talking about the wrong side of this topic.... we need to be talking about what could have been done to prevent the UNWANTED child in the first place... if we lived the law of chastity then this would not be a topic.... now since not everyone is perfect, it is a topic. if you think that you are old enough to partake in that kind of activity, then you must be old enough to undestand what the concequence is. now if you have been raped or other wise pregnant due to unwillingness of activities then you have the option to do the abortion..... but if you are old enough to do the act and its willingly, then you are old enough to take care of that child. i dont think there is such a thing like an "oops" or a "how did this happen?" we know how it happens, it doesnt happen when you are going to church, sleeping alone, or hanging out with a group of people talking about the scriptures. i wonder what one would have to say to that child in heaven after the abortion was over and that child asked "why didnt i get a chance to live a long life?" cause there is only one SELFISH answer to that "i couldnt handle a child at my age and in my situation." and the child would respond by saying "well you handled the activity just fine." well think about that.... i dont want to have that conversation with that child.... who gave me the right to do that to some one..... no one gave me the right to be selfish.... bad things happen to people i understand that, what is wrong with adoption? some say that its hard but how hard is it to run and hide and forget that it even happened???

[Newt132]

Some people do take all the neceessary precautions when having an intimate relationship, and yet things do still happen. I don't believe that God would condone the killing of an innocent child, but He would still realize that there are some people who get pregnant and don't have the means to be able to sustain the pregnancy or to raise the child.

Adoption can be a wonderful option for some people, but it takes a lot of strength to go through. I gave my son up for adoption 3 years ago, and without the love and support of my family and God, I never would have made it through the process or the months that followed. You can't really run and hide even after you've had an abortion, you still live with the knowledge that there was a child that you could've given life to, and people I know that have had abortions find it hard to forget what they did.

What it comes down to is there is no easy answer for an unplanned pregnancy, my friends, mine or anyone elses. It becomes a choice for you to make, and hopefully an informed one. My friend who might be pregnant right now is in a loving, somewhat stable relationship (they're both in their 20s), they took all the precautions they could and the child would not be unwanted. But is it worth it for her to put her life at risk (the medication she's on is a trial drug, there are no other treatements for the condition she has)? We've both been praying that she gets the guidance and strength to get through this time, and hopefully that'll help and she'll be able to make the right choices if she has to and will be able to get through this.

[Lindy]

Newt~ I am sorry that you had to make such a big decision as to give up a child you carried....I know that had to have been a very hard choice to make. And it showed that you took the time and thought to do what was best for the child. I had a friend who gave up her firstborn because she was not emotionally sound to raise a child....hardest choice she ever had to make in life. Her mother is helping to raise the second one....this one she couldn't give up, and we are so glad she didn't.

It's hard to make the choices we have to make in life, some choices are made for us..and we don't have to deal with the emotional part that will haunt us thru life. I know that "things" happen.... I know..... it's hard to comprehend the reasons behind it sometimes... But, if you think of it.....maybe it happened FOR a reason. You say they are in a loving relationship? Than they have one up on a lot of people who don't have that bond in life with someone they care about. If they are in a loving relationship....than they both need to discuss things....this is his child also....and I would think that the father should have a say in the future of his childs life. Getting some counseling from clergy might also help, it's the medication issue that really bothers me....I think that is a very weak argument for your friend to take a stand on to want to destroy a life. But that is just my opinion only.

[Tammy]

I have to say that I too don't agree with abortion. I take the same stance as the church on this matter. I was a young girl once and got pregnant--I chose to turn my life over to the Lord and have this child and raise her as a single mom. Boy what I would have missed if I had not. My husband and I married when she was 7 months old and he adopted her. Then we found out he could not have children. We later adopted a sibling group of four children who were 3,4,5 and 7. So I see this issue as both the mom who had the decision to make and the mom who adopted someone elses children who were unwanted and neglected. I have had a rough time with the adopted kids through the teen and early 20 years as I have with my own daughter due to their own choices BUT LET ME SAY THIS---I will never regret my decisions. The Lord truely knows what to work in our lives and I believe that even though getting pregnant was a mistake that I paid for--He blessed me with the only natural child I would ever have. I also have 2 wonderful grand daughters because of that and one on the way. They blessings far out way the struggles I have had in my life....

[StrawberryFields]

I can't imagine what it would be like to give a child up for adoption but our family is the happy recieptant of an adopted child she is my niece and she is very special to all of us. My brother and his wife found out after they were married that they couldn't have children. My poor SIL heart ached to have a child but she could not carry one and after six years of many trials in the medical field they decided to adopt a child and this little girl is the center of their universe. They would like to adopt another child as soon as possible because their daughter will soon be three. There is a song that has the words in it " From Gods Arm's to my arms to yours". I believe that many adopted children are to come to their families by this means. This little girl is loved by all of us and we are so grateful to her mother for allowing her to be born. :)

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Lindy@Nov 29 2005, 07:48 AM

.... it's the medication issue that really bothers me....I think that is a very weak argument for your friend to take a stand on to want to destroy a life. But that is just my opinion only.

Here's some info regarding high blood pressure and pregnancy:

Women with chronic hypertension should see their health care provider before attempting to conceive. A pre-pregnancy visit allows the provider to ensure that the blood pressure is under control, and to evaluate any medication the woman takes to control her blood pressure. While some medications to lower blood pressure are safe during pregnancy, others—including a group of drugs called angiotensin-converting-enzyme (ACE) inhibitors—can harm the fetus. Some women with chronic hypertension may be able to stop taking their medication or reduce their dose, at least during the first half of pregnancy, as blood pressure tends to fall during this time. However, blood pressure needs to be monitored carefully during this period.

Most women with chronic hypertension have healthy pregnancies. However, about 25 percent develop a form of gestational hypertension called preeclampsia (see below), which poses special risks.2,3

http://www.marchofdimes.com/professionals/681_1222.asp

M.

[sunny]

Just curious what people think/know about a young woman who is pro-life or too young and scared to even know she HAS a choice, and to have her parent(s) override/force her into having an abortion. Is that legal?

[Jason]

Wow....Look at all the hypocrits here.

As you beat your chests (or breasts) and state proudly:

I oppose abortion, EXCEPT...

Except?

That's like saying:

I oppose adultery, except...

I oppose rape, except...

I oppose murder, except...

Funny thing this abortion issue, for Latter-day Saints, there was a time when there was no "except" to their statement. Then the "prophets" started offering the "except" clause, and the members followed suit.

Sad, very sad.

[seamusz]

The church has always opposed all abortion. In the cases of insest, rape, or danger to the mothers life, the church understands that the desicion is not something that can be covered by a blanket statement, and should be left to the indivual, their spouse, and the Lord.

[Jason]

Originally posted by seamusz@Nov 29 2005, 11:52 AM

The church has always opposed all abortion. In the cases of insest, rape, or danger to the mothers life, the church understands that the desicion is not something that can be covered by a blanket statement, and should be left to the indivual, their spouse, and the Lord.

←

Oxymoron.

[seamusz]

Originally posted by Jason+Nov 29 2005, 12:01 PM-->

 

<!--QuoteBegin-seamusz@Nov 29 2005, 11:52 AM

The church has always opposed all abortion. In the cases of insest, rape, or danger to the mothers life, the church understands that the desicion is not something that can be covered by a blanket statement, and should be left to the indivual, their spouse, and the Lord.

←

 

Oxymoron.

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Would you prefer the church hold everyones hand through every decision?

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Soulsearcher@Nov 29 2005, 10:24 AM

...however listening to the problems she was talking about it sounds more like chronic low blood pressure to me.

I believe you are correct Soulsearcher. I re-read Newt's first post and she mentions dizziness and fainting. I normally have safe low blood pressure but found it went up when I was pregnant. The pregnancy may actually help Newt's friend. I still think she should consult a doctor to know her options.

M.

[Lindy]

Originally posted by Jason@Nov 29 2005, 10:45 AM

Wow....Look at all the hypocrits here. 

As you beat your chests (or breasts) and state proudly:

I oppose abortion, EXCEPT...

Except? 

That's like saying:

I oppose adultery, except...

I oppose rape, except...

I oppose murder, except...

Funny thing this abortion issue, for Latter-day Saints, there was a time when there was no "except" to their statement.  Then the "prophets" started offering the "except" clause, and the members followed suit. 

Sad, very sad.

←

OK Jason.....show me WHERE I said EXCEPT if you please.... my breasts just don't hurt right now for the pounding I was supposed to have given them.