Tithing...

[theBUBBAMANcan]

Hello,

I am scheduled for my baptism but I've been really concerned about my ability to tithe.

My wife and I are flat broke. We both work, but we have 3 young kids (plus I pay child support on a fouth).

We both work but by the time we pay day care, my child support, etc we have nothing left. We have no savings and no retirement whatsoever.

We do not go out to eat, have never taken a vacation, we do not drive nice cars, buy nice clothes or have fancy things. We have almost nothing that can be cut of our budget (cable bill = $20/mo...we use cell phones only, no land phone line, etc).

Anything you can say to help me make this leap of faith...let me hear it!

[Hemidakota]

Sit down with the Mission President about this issue. Do not worry. Everything will work out. Congrats. :)

[zookeeper]

A leap of Faith can be quite uncomfortable...hence the phrase. I hear your stress, but the cool thing is that it sounds like you are planning to pay anyway...There is your leap!

Anytime I've struggled with being faithful I lean on the examples of my parents. You just do what you're supposed to do...no big deal.

Good Luck!! If you happened to live near me I'd do a nice family portrait for you on that day. Congrats!!!

[lilered]

Let me share my testimony with you concerning the payment of Tithing. This commandment in the beginning was a large hurdle for me to accept when I joined the church years ago. We were about in the same boat as you are now. I too worried about where I would get the extra money.

I realized that as I started to progress I would eventually reach a cross-roads whereby I would be forced to make the Tithing decision whether to accept this gospel principal or not to accept it.

I finally accepted the fact that paying tithing is also about faith and obediance.

After mulling this over for several weeks, I decided to put the Lord to the Test concerning Temporal and Spiritual blessings promised if our family started paying a full tithing. We started and I can tell you that we have never missed a time we have not payed our tithing. We have never missed the payment of our tithing since, we have been blessed with 3 wonderfull and healthy children, we have been blessed with plenty to eat, a nice warm place to sleep as well as inumerable blessings spiritual and temporal in nature. We are so committed that we would never ever think of not paying our tithing. We have several times been in a position to counsel relatives, friends, etc. about their continued participation in this Principle even though they were tempted because of their circumstances to "rob" the Lord of that which is rightfully his. Each and every time, they continued to adhere to this principal and were blessed as a result. I have also learned that one can never get ahead of the Lord when it comes to keeping a commandment or principle and receiving the promised blessings. He always delivers upon his promises. May God bless you and I encourage you to seek your answer in prayer on your knees and as earlier stated. Discuss with the appropriate Bishop or Stake Pres.

[japacific]

The rate of bankruptcy in Utah is infamous. I don't agree with those who say even if you don't have enough money that you should pay tithing to the church

[tubaloth]

As Malachi says we have to prove him. Put God to the test. Pay tithing and see if God opens blessings for you. Having Faith in God is never an easy thing to DO.

[declanr]

Hello,

I am scheduled for my baptism but I've been really concerned about my ability to tithe.

My wife and I are flat broke. We both work, but we have 3 young kids (plus I pay child support on a fouth).

We both work but by the time we pay day care, my child support, etc we have nothing left. We have no savings and no retirement whatsoever.

We do not go out to eat, have never taken a vacation, we do not drive nice cars, buy nice clothes or have fancy things. We have almost nothing that can be cut of our budget (cable bill = $20/mo...we use cell phones only, no land phone line, etc).

Anything you can say to help me make this leap of faith...let me hear it!

How about some facts to digest:

TIME has been able to quantify the church's extraordinary financial vibrancy. Its current assets total a minimum of $30 billion. If it were a corporation, its estimated $5.9 billion in annual gross income would place it midway through the FORTUNE 500, a little below Union Carbide and the Paine Webber Group but bigger than Nike and the Gap.

Should you compromise your savings and future to contribute to an already rich entity? I would hope not. If such an organization asks for your 10% given your circumstances I would question them as a true church, or even a representative of any God. I would hope such a wealthy church would actually donate money to help you in your time of need and hardship.

The church asking for tithing from you seems a bit like Bill Gates asking me for change when I'm out of a job, then chastising me for not donating.....

[LolaBella]

You have to do whatever works best for you. Church members have high expectations of other church members and then good people such as yourself feel stressed and guilty for not meeting those standards. I always say that you should do THE BEST you can in your life. If you are doing THE BEST YOU CAN and still cannot afford to pay tithing then don't worry. If you really want to, make small donations where you can. A bishop once said to me, why not pay a part-tithe? It doesn't have to be all or nothing. Why not pay $5 a month and see how you get on?

[a-train]

Tithe no matter what. Cut all expenses necessary to live within your means.

-a-train

[countrygirl66]

I have a dear friend in your financial situation right now and i feel for you. Pay your tithing and the lord will bless you. If you can't budget to pay it right now, go to the bishop and ask about food or other assistance so you can free up some money to pay your tithing. I know it can be terribly uncomfortable, but we are all there for each other. I am thankful for the blessing of tithing everyday. It gives me a way to get the blessings I need by obeying a simple law. The blessings are equal weather you are rich or poor. Good luck and congratulations. :)

[skalenfehl]

The church's wealth is irrelevant. If the Lord cared only for wealth, He would drop a vein of Gold (that would put Fort Knox to shame) in the Uintah Mountains and tell President Monson to have the church go into the mining business. The church's "wealth" is in direct relation to the faith of its members and all its programs for aiding and assisting its own AND the many programs that benefit countless around the globe.

We are commanded to pay tithing because the Lord will have a tried people. Like silver in a refiner's fire or diamonds that are formed from the greatest pressures, so are our characters built through trials and tribulations. God will have us learn the law of sacrifice if we are to be worthy of His kingdom. Did not Christ give everything of himself? How much greater are we than He? If we cannot live the law of tithing, how can we live the law of consecration? It is easy for some to criticize the church with no regard to its history and the history of those who sacrificed to build it up, get it out of debt so that it could become the finely tuned instrument in fulfilling all of God's labors for the salvation of man. There are millions more to be brought to the fold, who must also benefit from our sacrifice and who will also be expected to sacrifice to benefit others and us as well.

Can we begin to understand the Law of Consecration?

Bubbaman, let your testimony be your guide, brother. Best wishes.

[Guest Alana]

If you tithe you will be blessed. No two ways about it.

There were months when we made less than $1000. Some how we kept going, got out of debt and all the while paid our tithing. Pray about it. I promise that the Lord wants you to pay tithing, no matter how little you make. The Lord wants to bless you and he will if you follow this commandment. If tithing is your first priority, the Lord will watch out for you. I'm not saying everything will be perfect and you'll be rolling in money, but you'll be ok. I've seen the blessings in my life. The blessings weren't allways to have lots of money, but it was always enough, even when it really shouldn't have been. I found my self not caring about the things we had to give up. In fact, life was just as comfortable as it ever was and we were healthier than ever, even though we had less money than ever. Study on this. Pray and this. Fast on this. You will be bless. And, when you practice on this, you'll gain a testimony on this principle.

[applepansy]

Hello,

I am scheduled for my baptism but I've been really concerned about my ability to tithe.

My wife and I are flat broke. We both work, but we have 3 young kids (plus I pay child support on a fouth).

We both work but by the time we pay day care, my child support, etc we have nothing left. We have no savings and no retirement whatsoever.

We do not go out to eat, have never taken a vacation, we do not drive nice cars, buy nice clothes or have fancy things. We have almost nothing that can be cut of our budget (cable bill = $20/mo...we use cell phones only, no land phone line, etc).

Anything you can say to help me make this leap of faith...let me hear it!

We have always been on a tight budget. . .married 32 years now. I refuse to even consider not paying my tithing anymore. I desperately NEED the blessings.

There were times in the first 10 years of marriage when our faith or my faith or my husband's faith was weak and we didn't pay tithing. Those times were the hardest times financially that I can remember. I don't want a repeat.

We had one year where we faithfully paid our tithing even though there wasn't enough money. Its all recorded in a checkbook register. . . every deposit, every check. If you add/subtract it up line by line it balances, if you add up the deposits separately and then add up the checks separately and subtract checks from deposits, its in the RED. NO kidding. . . I have it in a box somewhere. I ran a adding machine tape and checked it off, I did it over and over. My husband did it too. Really it shows a miracle in our lives and the blessings of tithing.

You have to exercise faith by doing before you get the blessings on this one.

When we really got serious about getting out of debt, we didn't stop paying tithing. We were able to pay off everything but one credit card and the mortgage in one year. I know this wouldn't have happened if tithing didn't get paid first.

applepansy

Edited November 19, 2008 by applepansy
addition

[Guest DeborahC]

Pay your tithing.

Everything else will fall into place.

God promises...

[melissar]

I agree. We have skipped paying tithing before and it was not good. Even when we felt like we could not afford it but paid our tithing, somehow our bills got paid.

[Elgama]

This may not work for you but does often for me try working out your finances with tithing at the top - I quite often forget to include it until the end and my sums don't add up, for some reason with the same figures and tithing at the top it does.

-Charley

[joheri]

How come the majority of Church members are not following the scriptures? D&C 119 describes how we are to tithe, but still most don't do it that way. The JST Genesis 14:39 says Abraham thithed of "all the riches which he possessed (legal SHARE), which God had given him more than he had need”.

If God is blessing you with more than you need to maintain your life, that is what you tithe from. If you have a family you will also need to maintain their lives as well, if you are the caretaker. This is also in harmony with D&C 119 which talks about surplus property, "which is understood to mean income". If you only make enough money to maintain life you don't really have any surplus property or an increase at all. In other words, there is nothing to tithe from.

Also, this way of paying tithing requires more of us spiritualy. Why? Because it will not be as black and white as it is for most today. "Just pay on gross" is too easy, in my opinion. People who don't even have enough to eat should get help by those who have too much and not pay tithing. There will come a time when they too will have more than they need. Then will be their time for tithe paying.

An interesting question, though, is when did the church members stray from D&C 119? And why has it become an unwritten law to pay on gross?

The answer to the first question might be somewhere between when D&C 119 was given and until the presidency of Lorenzo Snow. Pres Snow reinvigorated tithe-paying among the Saints. The answer to the second question is tougher, though. Could it be the members feeling bad about their past? Thinking it is better to overdo it than failing to pay the correct amount?

Again, this is all my opinion. :-)

[LDSVALLEY]

How come the majority of Church members are not following the scriptures? D&C 119 describes how we are to tithe, but still most don't do it that way. The JST Genesis 14:39 says Abraham thithed of "all the riches which he possessed (legal SHARE), which God had given him more than he had need”.

If God is blessing you with more than you need to maintain your life, that is what you tithe from. If you have a family you will also need to maintain their lives as well, if you are the caretaker. This is also in harmony with D&C 119 which talks about surplus property, "which is understood to mean income". If you only make enough money to maintain life you don't really have any surplus property or an increase at all. In other words, there is nothing to tithe from.

Also, this way of paying tithing requires more of us spiritualy. Why? Because it will not be as black and white as it is for most today. "Just pay on gross" is too easy, in my opinion. People who don't even have enough to eat should get help by those who have too much and not pay tithing. There will come a time when they too will have more than they need. Then will be their time for tithe paying.

An interesting question, though, is when did the church members stray from D&C 119? And why has it become an unwritten law to pay on gross?

The answer to the first question might be somewhere between when D&C 119 was given and until the presidency of Lorenzo Snow. Pres Snow reinvigorated tithe-paying among the Saints. The answer to the second question is tougher, though. Could it be the members feeling bad about their past? Thinking it is better to overdo it than failing to pay the correct amount?

Again, this is all my opinion. :-)

As I have told all new members coming into our church tithing is returning 10% of what we get to the Lord. When I joined I was told what that 10% constitutes is between the person and the Lord. I tell them to do what I did, come up with what seems right then take it to the Lord and he will let you know if he agrees or not.

In 15 years as a member I have never heard that it has to be Gross income. Some do gross, some do net, I knew one member who estimated the value of Christmas gifts, Birthday gifts etc and tithed on that. I personally was told by a Bishop it did not need to include money given by the government ie Unemployment, welfare etc.

Every member should pay tithing not matter what their financial picture. I had this argument when I joined, I was working 2 jobs to allow my wife to stay home I told the Missionaries there was no way I would pay tithing. I was allowed to join anyway. After a couple of years I got it and started to pay, we always found a way to make it work and we didn't do without. Then one month we needed medications for the kids and the only money in the house was tithing so we used it. Next month we were even worse off so the tithing went again. Third month things were still screwed up so I forced myself to pay tithing first, by the end of the month we were back to normal.

If you can't afford to pay tithing pay it anyway, if at the end of the period you are stuck then you are to go to the Bishop and get aid. If you really need it you will get it. That is how the Lords plan works.

[Just_A_Guy]

An interesting question, though, is when did the church members stray from D&C 119?

If you mean when we started paying a tenth of our "increase" instead of our "interest": that usage was common within the Church within four months of Joseph Smith's death, if not earlier:

He [John Taylor] said one of the clerks had asked whether any should be baptized who had not paid their tithing; it is our duty to pay our tithing, one tenth of all we possess, and then one tenth of our increase, and a man who has not paid his tithing is unfit to be baptized for his dead.

--October Conference Minutes. City of Nauvoo, Oct. 6, 1844., Times and Seasons, vol. 5 (January 1844-January 1, 1845), No. 19. Nauvoo, Illinois, Oct. 15, 1844. Whole No. 102 685. (emphasis added))

Edited November 7, 2010 by Just_A_Guy

[LDSVALLEY]

Another issue is if we did as you (Joheri) suggests then how does one determine where needs stop. Do I pay tithing on money before I pay my phone, internet, cable etc or after? What about a car, if I need it for getting to work then is the money to pay on it tithing free? What about if I need a car but instead of buying a $2000 car to get me to and from work I buy a $50,000 SUV instead?

Where is the line? What counts as a need and which is a want? A home is a need but do you need a $300,000 home or a $150,000 one.

Every time I get my paycheck my family's ability to live is increased. Therefore I pay tithing based on my increase which is whatever my paycheck tells me it is. That is what makes sense and what the Lord would expect.

As I said before if you then can't make ends meet then the Lord has allowed for that help as well. But first we must obey his instructions then he can help us when we need it.

[Just_A_Guy]

I see what Joheri is saying; but it strikes me that if we ever get to the point where we can do away with bright-line rules and replace them with a "declare your own surplus" situation, then we're ready to move beyond tithing and into consecration proper.

[Mute]

I find the whole belief of tithe no matter your circumstances, no matter how difficult it may be to pay your bills to be a little contradictory. How many people have you known who said this to people fasting? Fast no matter your health conditions and you will be ok. That is surely not the case and I don't believe it was meant to be with tithing either. Do what you can. If you say in your heart that you would pay tithing if you could, then I believe that is all that should be expected of you. When you can pay tithe, then pay tithe by all means but don't lose your home because of it and don't lose your life fasting because you have health problems.

THE BOOK OF MOSIAH

CHAPTER 4

24 And again, I say unto the poor, ye who have not and yet have sufficient, that ye remain from day to day; I mean all you who deny the beggar, because ye have not; I would that ye say in your hearts that: I give not because I have not, but if I had I would give.

25 And now, if ye say this in your hearts ye remain guiltless, otherwise ye are condemned; and your condemnation is just for ye covet that which ye have not received.

[LDSVALLEY]

I find the whole belief of tithe no matter your circumstances, no matter how difficult it may be to pay your bills to be a little contradictory. How many people have you known who said this to people fasting? Fast no matter your health conditions and you will be ok. That is surely not the case and I don't believe it was meant to be with tithing either. Do what you can. If you say in your heart that you would pay tithing if you could, then I believe that is all that should be expected of you. When you can pay tithe, then pay tithe by all means but don't lose your home because of it and don't lose your life fasting because you have health problems.

THE BOOK OF MOSIAH

CHAPTER 4

24 And again, I say unto the poor, ye who have not and yet have sufficient, that ye remain from day to day; I mean all you who deny the beggar, because ye have not; I would that ye say in your hearts that: I give not because I have not, but if I had I would give.

25 And now, if ye say this in your hearts ye remain guiltless, otherwise ye are condemned; and your condemnation is just for ye covet that which ye have not received.

Big difference. First the church tells us to fast only if we are able, if we are of ill health, with child etc then we are not to do so. Second as I had stated earlier the Lord does not expect you to loss your house. That is why there is the church welfare program.

The Lord expects you to pay your tithing. Then if you are in need you have a venue through the church to get the help you need to make ends meet.

I believe in Logic, tithing made no sense to me until I did it. I found since we started paying it that avenues have always opened up when we needed it most. I can not explain in logic why it works that way other then being blessed for doing so.

[Mute]

Big difference. First the church tells us to fast only if we are able, if we are of ill health, with child etc then we are not to do so. Second as I had stated earlier the Lord does not expect you to loss your house. That is why there is the church welfare program.

The Lord expects you to pay your tithing. Then if you are in need you have a venue through the church to get the help you need to make ends meet.

I believe in Logic, tithing made no sense to me until I did it. I found since we started paying it that avenues have always opened up when we needed it most. I can not explain in logic why it works that way other then being blessed for doing so.

So you're saying the church tells everyone to pay their tithing no matter their circumstances and if they don't have enough money to survive, the church will take care of it? If the church helps people out after paying tithing, then I am fine with someone wanting to pay tithing. Either way, it is not my choice to make. At least he would not be losing his home. I still think it's a double standard to apply that to tithing and not to fasting though.

[LDSVALLEY]

How do you apply the same principle to fasting? The church can help out those who pay tithing but need financial aid. You can't have someone who should not fast doing so because there is no way to rectify the situation.

The church would not want anyone to put their or other peoples health at risk.

While the Lord has told us to pay tithing I was allowed to join the church refusing to pay it. I didn't pay it for three years until I finally had the understanding of how it worked.

People are not excommunicated if they stop tithing, nor does a Bishop sit there with a calculator and audit peoples payments.

I pay it because it benefits my self and my family. The money I give back to the Lord goes to support the church, to pay for buildings, to help with disaster relief, to help provide funds beyond fast offerings to those in need, to help those who can not help themselves, to fund church programs in our ward and worldwide. My small contribution multiplies many times and does far more good then I ever could with five times my income to help others out.