"...they don't belong in our country!!"

[Aesa]

I'm just sitting here and listening to my nan get all angry about the following:

"Christmas carols not being allowed in schools!

For multicultural correctness!

Get them out of the country! They don't belong here...

Now, in past times, up until very, very, recently I have acted upon statements like this and contended with her.

But, recently I've been sitting them out because she gets way too angry.

So what's your opinion?

(By the way - I'm fairly sure she's talking about public schools)

My conviction is, if you don't like the school, move.

[hordak]

I'm just sitting here and listening to my nan get all angry about the following:

"Christmas carols not being allowed in schools!

For multicultural correctness!

Get them out of the country! They don't belong here...

Now, in past times, up until very, very, recently I have acted upon statements like this and contended with her.

But, recently I've been sitting them out because she gets way too angry.

So what's your opinion?

(By the way - I'm fairly sure she's talking about public schools)

My conviction is, if you don't like the school, move.

Who's them? Non Christians? She's overreacting . While I am certainly not one who is known for my political or multicultural correctness kicking them out of the county so people can sing Here comes Santa clause and Rodolph the red nosed reindeer is absurd.

I see why you contend with her.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Do the Christmas carols actually offend anyone though?

[Aesa]

"Them," being anyone who is not a Christian -- and even those of whom she terms as a "blow in" religion.

So that would mean anything but the Catholics and the Anglicans and maybe Presbyterians but I doubt it.

[Aesa]

Do the Christmas carols actually offend anyone though?

Well I have no idea.

Apparently it offends some Muslims.

I mean, I can understand why - who wants their child learning songs about Santa if they're a muslim?

Christmas Carols, in my experience, don't much testify of Christ.

[WillowTheWhisp]

The first Christmas card we got this year was from Muslim neighbours. It doesn't seem to offend them. And yet the PC brigade here in the UK are always telling us things we shouldn't do for fear of offending Muslims.

[Fiannan]

Well I have no idea.

Apparently it offends some Muslims.

I mean, I can understand why - who wants their child learning songs about Santa if they're a muslim?

Christmas Carols, in my experience, don't much testify of Christ.

Why do people assume Muslims are against Christmas? True, Islam does not celebrate the Pagan holiday of the Winter Solstice co-opted by the Catholic Church and called Christmas but neither did most Christians until more recent times. Did Joseph Smith's family have a Christmas tree? No they didn't -- in those days you might have people over for a family meal but that was the extent of it.

That being said, many more Muslims are celebrating Christmas -- when the sunami hit Thialand and Indonesia some imams claimed it was punishment for Muslims celebrating Christmas.

I have never heard of Muslims calling for an end to Christmas. Muslims put more emphasis in the koran on Mary and the birth of Jesus than the Bible does. They just don't see Jesus as the Son of God, just a major prophet.

The people who get all bent out of shape over Christmas tend to be white, secular, wimpy, "celebrate diversity" types who'se extent of celebrating diversity might entail picking up on the local men on the beaches of Beleze while on holiday (if they are females...oh wait, maybe...) or buying some ethnic CD or some other ritual to prove how open-minded they are. They feel they have to protect people from being offended even though the vast majority of those people are not offended by traditions. The problem is, they think everyone loves them for their efforts yet the people they seek to "defend" don't have any particular love for them nor do the people who enjoy the traditions their parents and grandparents passed on.

[austro-libertarian]

The problem is the whole idea of public schools. The govt shouldn't be involved in education. If schools were privatized (as in 100% privatized, no govt core curriculum) you wouldn't have these issues. Schools could specialize in all kinds of areas and you could choose where your kid attends (you wouldn't have to move)--or not attends for that matter.

But since the public school is a "one size fits all" approach, it just becomes egalitarianism and someone inevitably gets offended. It is a political power grab at this point. That is the fundamental issue. We see what government involvement in marriage (another area where it has no business) has done recently in California.

[NeuroTypical]

You can always suggest she join the Klan - they're very big on the notion that America should only have white Christians in it...

[KristofferUmfrey]

I'm just sitting here and listening to my nan get all angry about the following:

"Christmas carols not being allowed in schools!

For multicultural correctness!

Get them out of the country! They don't belong here...

Now, in past times, up until very, very, recently I have acted upon statements like this and contended with her.

But, recently I've been sitting them out because she gets way too angry.

So what's your opinion?

(By the way - I'm fairly sure she's talking about public schools)

My conviction is, if you don't like the school, move.

Christmas being removed from culture has little to do with a multi-cultural invasion, it is our own home grown liberals that are doing it...

Check out government/military websites from Latin-American countries where they have Merry Christmas up top and prominent complete with manger scenes.

It's not them, it's us.

[Misshalfway]

You know.... I think it is silly that parents or communities get up in arms over being exposed to alternate cultural experience. I mean doesn't such exposure help us toward tolerance and mutual respect? We are all so afraid. So scared that our kids won't be able to determine truth. So scared that exposure will corrupt what we are trying to teach as parents.

I personally feel enriched by my exposure to other customs and cultures. I don't agree with the beliefs behind them. But I don't have to. I love that I dated a man who knew so much of India and taught me of that land. I love that there are families that have the opportunity to travel and to see the taste the world.

I think we all just need to breath in and out and do more to expose our children to the world and learning about it and not being so afraid that the study of it will somehow brainwash our kids.

[Gwen]

after a dr visit (muslium dr) with my son when he was 3 months old the dr explained to me that he was going to have him admitted into the hospital.. until. i was in a city an hour from home and had not prepared to stay over night much less an undetermined number of nights. i had to call ppl. he took me to his private office, sat me at a desk with a phone, told me to call anyone in the world i felt i needed to for any reason to take my time and make the arrangments i needed before heading off to the hospital. as i was leaving he asked if there was anything else he could do for me, i said "just a prayer". we were in the hospital about 3 days. every morning and evening he would call to check on us. first words out of his mouth were "i prayed for your baby today, how is he". while in the hospital my son improved in ways that medicaly are unexplainable. upon leaving the dr told me, "your son has been touched by miracle of prayer, i have no other answer. you will never read that in my reports, to many lawyer...." my son is nearly 5 now and has experianced some setbacks. the dr regularly says "your son has had miracles before, we will again. keep doing what you do, keep praying". our religion may be different, our faith is the same. i think most muslims get that, as do most christians.

like most "issues" i think it's a few oversensitive ppl with good vocal cords that want the fight. honestly i think it's the greatest form of terrorism ever contrived. they have ppl convinced that "everyone" finds this offensive and you end up having to watch every word that comes out your mouth and feeling guilty for every thought you don't let past your lips. they control us (ppl and society) better than any bomb ever could. sometimes i think we can become so concerned with not wanting to look prejduce that we go against the promptings of the holy spirit or the things we know are right. i'm sure satan is quite proud of the skillfulness with which he crafted this one.

[TheyCallMeMom]

I'm just sitting here and listening to my nan get all angry about the following:

"Christmas carols not being allowed in schools!

For multicultural correctness!

Get them out of the country! They don't belong here...

Now, in past times, up until very, very, recently I have acted upon statements like this and contended with her.

But, recently I've been sitting them out because she gets way too angry.

So what's your opinion?

(By the way - I'm fairly sure she's talking about public schools)

My conviction is, if you don't like the school, move.

sounds to me she may be speaking of "multicultural" peopels, to which are not to blame.. its the home bred anti-christians that have created this problem

but if she is speaking of government sponsored education, I concur..

its not a government delegation.. And since the schools are federally funded and practically mandated, you cant just "move"

[mightynancy]

I am a person of faith, but I have no problem keeping religion out of public school. Seriously, do you want the government teaching religion? Please!

[TheyCallMeMom]

I am a person of faith, but I have no problem keeping religion out of public school. Seriously, do you want the government teaching religion? Please!

teaching is one thing.. tolerating is another..

they do neither

[Hemidakota]

In England, it was permissible to have a congregational prayer prior to school started. I attended.

In America, as a child, we sang with our right hand covering our heart the American anthem. I attended.

Earlier in our church history, the ward Christmas effort for those families who served in the military while either the mother or father was called away from home, would stand on the doors singing carols to the family. I attended.

We cannot worry over or even be concerned about what they may do or think about Christ or those worship moments, we simply do what is right and honoring our GOD.

[mightynancy]

Tolerance has its limits. Where do we draw the line? If we "tolerate" the Christians, we must tolerate the Muslims, the Jews, the JW's (fine, fine, fine, you're thinking), the Scientologists, the FSM church... We'd have to allow ALL an equal chance at influencing our kids. Keep religion out of schools.

[Wingnut]

Well I have no idea.

Apparently it offends some Muslims.

I mean, I can understand why - who wants their child learning songs about Santa if they're a muslim?

Christmas Carols, in my experience, don't much testify of Christ.

Perhaps you're listening to the wrong Christmas carols. I listen to plenty of them that testify of Christ.

But since the public school is a "one size fits all" approach, it just becomes egalitarianism and someone inevitably gets offended. It is a political power grab at this point. That is the fundamental issue. We see what government involvement in marriage (another area where it has no business) has done recently in California.

Not to turn this into an education debate, but if the government got out of it all together, you would see literacy statistics in this country go farther down than they already are, because half the families in the country couldn't afford to send their children to school.

after a dr visit (muslium dr) with my son when he was 3 months old the dr explained to me that he was going to have him admitted into the hospital.. until. i was in a city an hour from home and had not prepared to stay over night much less an undetermined number of nights. i had to call ppl. he took me to his private office, sat me at a desk with a phone, told me to call anyone in the world i felt i needed to for any reason to take my time and make the arrangments i needed before heading off to the hospital. as i was leaving he asked if there was anything else he could do for me, i said "just a prayer". we were in the hospital about 3 days. every morning and evening he would call to check on us. first words out of his mouth were "i prayed for your baby today, how is he". while in the hospital my son improved in ways that medicaly are unexplainable. upon leaving the dr told me, "your son has been touched by miracle of prayer, i have no other answer. you will never read that in my reports, to many lawyer...." my son is nearly 5 now and has experianced some setbacks. the dr regularly says "your son has had miracles before, we will again. keep doing what you do, keep praying". our religion may be different, our faith is the same. i think most muslims get that, as do most christians.

Thanks for sharing a great experience. I remember an article in the Ensign a few years ago written by an LDS man who had lived in the Middle East with his family for 19 years. He wrote of the many similarities between Mormons and Muslims. Check it out here: LDS.org - Ensign Article - A Life among Muslims

[john doe]

Christmas Carols, in my experience, don't much testify of Christ.

Depends on the carol. If they're the ones that talk about Santa Claus and reindeer, you're right. But there are numerous Christ-centered carols which do testify of Him and His divine mission.

[rameumptom]

I believe schools should show respect to religions and celebrate them. Christmas cards, Ch'anukkah cards, etc., are all fine to me. Instead of kicking religions out of schools, let's embrace all of the good ones. If my school wishes to celebrate a day for Buddhists, no problem.

I think it needs to be done in a way that does not attack other religions, but solely shows respect for the faiths people have.

There is a huge difference between teaching/preaching religion, and showing respect and celebrating the common good most religions have.

Edited December 9, 2008 by rameumptom

[Misshalfway]

I agree Ram. We live in a religiously diverse nation (USA) and world. And the world itself is getting smaller all the time. Why not show respect to the salad bowl instead of being afraid of a tomato sitting next to a mushroom?

[FunkyTown]

I agree Ram. We live in a religiously diverse nation (USA) and world. And the world itself is getting smaller all the time. Why not show respect to the salad bowl instead of being afraid of a tomato sitting next to a mushroom?

What if the mushroom is shifty?

[rameumptom]

If the mushroom is shifty, then just move it to the other side of the bowl....

We are not a melting pot. We don't have to be a melting pot, where everyone must conform to a certain anti/non-insulting format. We can be a salad, where everyone is still unique, but combine to make a richer overall experience. Where there are bad apples (or mushrooms), we can weed them out if necessary. But the nutrition comes from exposing the palate to the entire buffet, not just the soup.

[mightynancy]

I believe schools should show respect to religions and celebrate them. Christmas cards, Ch'anukkah cards, etc., are all fine to me. Instead of kicking religions out of schools, let's embrace all of the good ones. If my school wishes to celebrate a day for Buddhists, no problem.

(bolding mine - mn)

See, that's the rub. Who decides which is a "good" religion, and which is not? I happen to think that LDS is a lovely religion. Others think it's dangerous heresy.

My position doesn't come from fear (I even like the shifty mushrooms!) but from a position of fairness and practicality. I'm more than happy to leave religious education up to families and places of worship. I have no problem sending my kids to other churches for activities, we're a multilingual family, we mix with all flavors of people. I *do* embrace all good faiths, for they all are of God. I still don't want the state having to cope with who's who and what's what when it comes to the issue of religion.

Edited December 9, 2008 by mightynancy

[TheyCallMeMom]

I think the best solution to the problem is to privatize education..

then your child can receive the best education for them as an individual.. and the issue of "Christmas songs" will be nearly non existant