We LDS do funny things.

[applepansy]

another situation i just thought about.... i was told when missionaries speak the senior companion is supposed to speak last... again, more knowledgeable, experienced, etc.

i'm actually surprised they would put small bathrooms in the nursery. given the lecture we got about needing to have 2 ppl in a class now so no adult is alone with a youth/child i'd think a bathroom could be a problem... just like nursery leaders don't change diapers. ????

Just this Sunday the senior companion spoke in our Ward first.

The bathrooms are not for adults. When I've was a sub in the nursery we didn't go into the bathroom with the child or change diapers. If the child required help (Couldn't manage in the bathroom alone) we went to get Mom or Dad.

[lilered]

They ask the women to speak first, so the man gets a chance, otherwise the meeting would always run over and the man would never get the last word.

[applepansy]

Sorry Apple. I didn't really mean to upset anyone by asking the question. I think perhaps I am trying to figure out a few deeper feelings I have being raised and reared in a Patriarchal system that in some ways has inadvertently created an interesting and unintended culture of traditions where the worth of women and girls is sometimes still in question. Part of that might just be cultural and not related to the gospel at all but still woven into church culture.

I really don't think on the balance that women in the church are second class citizens. But I do wonder about the things Gwen added. And if there are any gents out there that still think they preside over their wives, then they need to learn a thing or two about gospel doctrine.

The truth is I was just sitting in church and humorously noodling over why we do certain things and wondering the origins of some of our practices like why there wasn't a room for the priesthood akin the RS and Primary rooms. That is all. For all I know, it could be a budget decision.

I don't think the church always recognizes completely that sometimes they do send a different message to the women about their worth .... or at least call it into subtle question on occasion -- most of which I think is innocent in inadvertent. Other times I think it is obvious and I wish the church would address some of the practices.

IE. Why is General RS meeting not included in the General Conference but held outside of it a week before?

Why are the boys given award after award and given courts of honor and have weekly meetings where their moms and dads get to take pics and tell them how awesome they are and it has taken the church so long to even create a girls program that even now meets half the time of the boys and is only geared around the Faith in God program?

So easy to look at these practices and say it doesn't mean what I think it means, but somewhere deep within, I still wonder. It seems some of these practices undermine the churches message.

No aoology necessary. I'm not upset. I just disagree.

There was a time in my life when I would have probably agreed with you. But in studying and becoming closer to my Heavenly Father I've learned something I didn't see before. Some things done in the church are to protect women, not discriminate. If it is viewed as discrimination that's not the GAs fault. It is someone putting their interpretation on a situation based on their own experiences. We all do this. . . it happens everyday here on this forum. Someone posts a situation and pretty soon there are a dozen posts picking it apart based on their own experiences and how they would respond to the circumstances posted.

I think having our General RS Meetings and General YW Meetings beings separate is just for convenience. Can you imagine how long conference would be otherwise? It used to be that everything was addressed in a 3-day General Conference. Later Church leaders saw a need for women to have their own conference. The Friday sessions were deleted and Womens's Conference added. I think that's very sensitive and shows our leaders are aware of womens's issues and needs in today's world. And for the record the Aaronic Priesthood doesn't have their own conference, just the girls.

The boys are give awards the girls aren't given? What? There has been a very extensive YW's programs for decades. In some wards there are complaints that the boys aren't receiving the recognition and attention the girls are. The Church has adopted the Boy Scouts of America as the program for developinig good atributes for the boys and they have developed a wonder Personal Progress program for the girls. (We lived in the Ward that helped developed the new version of Personal Progress before it was introduced almost 20 years ago.) A YMs theme was developed in response to the questions of why the YW had one and the YM didn't.

After several years of questioning I learned if I really wanted to know the truth of these things (the mechanics and proceedures) to ask my Heavenly Father. It is He who has put them in place afterall.

With love and peace in my heart,

applepansy

P.S. Our programs for the youth are only as good as the people who are called to the leadership positions. Some of the leaders in Scouting put more effort into the program and some of the YW leaders do the same. It varies from person to person, Ward to Ward, etc. . . . as is should. Our Heavenly Father knows what experiences we need to test and build our faith.

Edited January 12, 2009 by applepansy
addition

[applepansy]

Another thought. . . I'm grateful that as women we aren't treated like the men.

[Gwen]

speaking of traditions not related to doctrine.... has there ever been a male member of the general primary presidency? or in the stake or ward for that matter. on rare occasions i've seen male teachers but never in the presidency. is there some rule or just what is commonly done?

[Wingnut]

We have tons of male "primary workers" in my ward, but I too have never heard of a guy being in the presidency. Also, is there something that says that a woman can't be in the Sunday School presidency? Because I've never seen that, either.

[Truegrits]

My Ward in Naples was good about a pretty even split with male/female teachers in Primary. On-the-other-hand, my current small-town Ward has not had a male teacher (probably) in forty years!!!

[Moksha]

1. why does the wife always speak before the man in Sacrament Meeting?

2. why do the wives always only say the opening prayer and the husbands always say the closing prayer?

The answer to both questions is that they don't want to save the best for last.

:)

[Palerider]

They ask the women to speak first, so the man gets a chance, otherwise the meeting would always run over and the man would never get the last word.

and we would never get to watch football games on sundays.....:) Edited January 13, 2009 by Palerider

[Palerider]

Here is another spin to this....in our Stake...we do not ask husband and wife to speak on the same day nor to give the prayer in Sac meeting on the same day....do not want to give the impression that you have to be married to do those things.....in our stake the Sister often gives the closing prayer in Sac meeting.....the Sister does speak last if the primary Presidency or RS presidency or YW presidency are the speakers.....again it goes by second councilor speaks first and so on.....if you attend a ward and there are 2 High councilors there....the one with the most senority speaks last....

[Misshalfway]

No aoology necessary. I'm not upset. I just disagree.

There was a time in my life when I would have probably agreed with you. But in studying and becoming closer to my Heavenly Father I've learned something I didn't see before. Some things done in the church are to protect women, not discriminate. If it is viewed as discrimination that's not the GAs fault. It is someone putting their interpretation on a situation based on their own experiences. We all do this. . . it happens everyday here on this forum. Someone posts a situation and pretty soon there are a dozen posts picking it apart based on their own experiences and how they would respond to the circumstances posted.

I think having our General RS Meetings and General YW Meetings beings separate is just for convenience. Can you imagine how long conference would be otherwise? It used to be that everything was addressed in a 3-day General Conference. Later Church leaders saw a need for women to have their own conference. The Friday sessions were deleted and Womens's Conference added. I think that's very sensitive and shows our leaders are aware of womens's issues and needs in today's world. And for the record the Aaronic Priesthood doesn't have their own conference, just the girls.

The boys are give awards the girls aren't given? What? There has been a very extensive YW's programs for decades. In some wards there are complaints that the boys aren't receiving the recognition and attention the girls are. The Church has adopted the Boy Scouts of America as the program for developinig good atributes for the boys and they have developed a wonder Personal Progress program for the girls. (We lived in the Ward that helped developed the new version of Personal Progress before it was introduced almost 20 years ago.) A YMs theme was developed in response to the questions of why the YW had one and the YM didn't.

After several years of questioning I learned if I really wanted to know the truth of these things (the mechanics and proceedures) to ask my Heavenly Father. It is He who has put them in place afterall.

With love and peace in my heart,

applepansy

P.S. Our programs for the youth are only as good as the people who are called to the leadership positions. Some of the leaders in Scouting put more effort into the program and some of the YW leaders do the same. It varies from person to person, Ward to Ward, etc. . . . as is should. Our Heavenly Father knows what experiences we need to test and build our faith.

I understand what you are saying. I appreciate your opinions and conclusions about the Women's conference question. I am just not satisfied with your answer. Conference is long. The general men's meeting is held on Saturday night after a long day of speakers. I am grateful they do see the needs of women and try to address them. But I agree with Gwen on this one. I think the men generally make these decisions and I think there is a lot of cultural influence woven into them. Again.....inadvertently.

With regards to the scouting program, I was referring specifically to the Primary. Please show me where the girls are given uniforms and goals and awards and Arrow of Light ceremonies? It was only in the last few years that the church started the Achievement days and only recently that it was expanded to include the 8 year old girls and not just another version of Merry Miss (11 year olds) and the focus is only Faith in God and bi-monthy activities. There is no equivelant program for the girls. This is my point. I think the older organizations are much more equitable than they were when I was growing up. I can't tell you how many camp outs, skiing outings, cave climbing etc etc activities that the boys were involved in compared to the girls who went to girls camp and earned a few beads over the course of four days. Beyond the young woman's award.....please tell me what awards you think the girls get today? I am not saying that the girls don't have a program that works today. I think the church has worked these programs and brought them more into balance. But I still don't see the balance in the primary and it is a curious thing to me.

The scouting program was not brought into the church as a matter of doctrine. It was brought in to create an activity arm for the boys. It is a tradition.....not really part of the gospel of Jesus Christ so......I don't know if I can really have a need to have a 'testimony' about scouting. I support it as I have done my whole life. I am sorry to question it. I know questioning anything the church does is taboo. But then again......questions did start the whole restoration in the first place...so I don't feel so bad.

With regards to the prayer inference.....I think I will just leave that one alone.

Edited January 13, 2009 by Misshalfway

[Misshalfway]

Here is another spin to this....in our Stake...we do not ask husband and wife to speak on the same day nor to give the prayer in Sac meeting on the same day....do not want to give the impression that you have to be married to do those things.....in our stake the Sister often gives the closing prayer in Sac meeting.....the Sister does speak last if the primary Presidency or RS presidency or YW presidency are the speakers.....again it goes by second councilor speaks first and so on.....if you attend a ward and there are 2 High councilors there....the one with the most senority speaks last....

So if I am older than my husband, does that mean I have seniority and I will speak last???

[Palerider]

So if I am older than my husband, does that mean I have seniority and I will speak last???

not in the Stake where I live....they ask us not to have husband and wife on same program speaking.....:p:D

High Council senority means....who has served longer on the council....

[Wingnut]

It was only in the last few years that the church started the Achievement days and only recently that it was expanded to include the 8 year old girls and not just another version of Merry Miss (11 year olds) and the focus is only Faith in God and bi-monthy activities. There is no equivelant program for the girls. This is my point.

The Valiant Miss program was started nearly 20 years ago. I am 28 years old, and I participated in the original generation of Valiant Misses. I believe that at that time it was 9-12 (well, 11) year olds. Then they did away with the class names and changed the name of that particular program a few times, finally settling on Achievement Days, and expanding the age.

[Misshalfway]

Oh well.....I don't suppose it matters, does it? Why am I ranting? Who knows. It is probably premenstral syndrome! :)

[Palerider]

Oh well.....I don't suppose it matters, does it? Why am I ranting? Who knows. It is probably premenstral syndrome! :)

where is that LOL button.......I don't believe a word you said....LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Wingnut]

Oh well.....I don't suppose it matters, does it? Why am I ranting? Who knows. It is probably premenstral syndrome! :)

[MarginOfError]

Wow...so many things to comment on...where do I start. How about we start with some short comments.

Those in the Sunday School Presidency are supposed to be Melchizedek Priesthood holders.

The Primary is to be presided over by sisters, so long as worthy and capable sisters are available to do the work. If no sisters are available to serve in the presidency, a Melchizedek Priesthood holder may then serve in that capacity (one of my young men's advisers was the Relief Society President at one point in his life).

Regarding speakers: generally speaking (as in, not just related to the Church), when you organize an event you put the highlighted speaker last. Sometimes this speaker is called the "keynote speaker." It's the speaker that has the draw; the speaker that people came to see. It is just understood in our culture that these people speak last. This also has the effect of the last speaker discussing the topic that you most want people to remember.

This translates into Sacrament meeting a little oddly. Most of us don't know who is speaking on any given Sunday, and so we don't really have that 'draw' to the meeting. The important thing to remember when planning, then, is what message do you want people to have fresh in their minds when they leave the meeting. Whoever is delivering that message should speak last.

When I member of the Stake Presidency visits a ward, he is the presiding priesthood authority. If we are to assume a greater weight to his comments than anyone else in the building, then he should be the last one to speak. Likewise, when a High Councilman visits, although they are not the presiding authority at the meeting (High Councilman do not preside over bishops), they are charged with delivering a message from the Stake Presidency. Again, assuming more weight to the Stake Presidency's message, they should speak last.

In the case of junior/senior companion, if you want to dig down to technicalities, the senior companion should speak last. But this of course assumes that the senior companion truly presides over the junior companion. This arrangement is very loosely defined in the missionary materials I've read and I believe a true presiding companion is discouraged. I don't imagine most companionships would really care who spoke first or last.

With husbands and wives, you might be able to claim the husband is the presiding figure, but I'm not sure how well you could defend that. Husbands are to preside over their families with their wives as equal partners. I would have a very hard time saying that the husband's comments should carry more weight to begin with, but it's even harder given that 'equal partners' thing.

In any case, I think you'll find that how these speaking arrangements are made vary from stake to stake, and even ward to ward. It isn't uncommon in my ward for the woman to speak last. Admittedly, it's usually the man that speaks last. I suspect this has more to do with the bishopric inviting couples to speak and they couples just assume the order because that's what our social programming has taught us.

But here's the thing, in my opinion, that should be done. When planning Sacrament meeting, the bishopric should select the concluding speaker first. Determine who is going to speak to close your meeting in a way that closes it with the best Spirit possible. Work backward from there. The end of the meeting is going to be the part that sticks with people the most, so that part should be as good as possible. If you feel a certain sister is going to give the best talk about the subject at hand, have her be the concluding speaker.

I know some of you might disagree based on propriety and tradition and half a dozen other reasons. But the fact of the matter is, these meetings are supposed to be places where we feel the Spirit so we can be taught the Gospel. These meetings are supposed to help us take these lessons home and apply them to our lives. Putting the best speaker last--regardless of gender--maximizes the ability of these meetings to do that.

Here's an anecdote to go with that. Several months ago we had a couple speak in Sacrament in which the wife spoke first and gave an absolutely amazing talk. She was well prepared, gave great delivery, and had a very organized, thought provoking talk. It was a very powerful and inspiring talk. Her husband's talk, wasn't so good. It wasn't really bad, but it definitely was a bit of a let down after such a great talk from her. I don't know if he wasn't prepared or if he just doesn't know how to prepare for such a speaking assignment, but the meeting would have been much more powerful if he had spoken before his wife.

[applepansy]

MissHalf, My youngest, a daughter, is 21. I haven't been involved in Achievement Days for about 15 to 10 years except through my husband and his calling in the Bishopric. Again, the inequity you are seeing is Ward or Stake specific, maybe leader specific? The Wards we've lived in puts as much time, effort and money into the Primary age girls as they do the boys.

Again, I don't think its is a Church issue.

Do you believe that the General Relief Society Presidency didn't have a part of the decision in when to have Women's Conference? Yes the men have an evening meeting. . . On Saturday night. There would be less attendance where I live if women had to leave their children on a night when their husbands are at a meeting. The last session is Sunday afternoon. I'm confused. In your opinion when would be a better time?

I'm truly trying to understand

applepansy

[miztrniceguy]

so i thought this thread was about funny things we do?

[Gwen]

so i thought this thread was about funny things we do?

lol .... maybe .... funny = odd vs. funny = haha

so is it safe to conclude from all this that the man does typically speak last (though that may be slowly diminishing in some areas) however it is not a doctrinal issue but merely old traditions that have yet to be let go of..... and that it could be very easy for one to conclude (given social programing) that this tradition of the man speaking last is somehow an insult to women (even if the person perceiving it that way isn't out looking for sexism within the church). not saying that the church realizes, or intends to send the message that men are the more important voice but that it could be easily misunderstood as such. as members we need to be aware of what we do and why because those behaviors will be looked at by those not of our faith (and sometimes within our faith) and could be questioned; it's good to be prepared with accurate answers ............ ??

[Hemidakota]

And why does the wife always speak before the man in Sacrament Meeting?

Any why do the wives always only say the opening prayer and the husbands always say the closing prayer?

(Was sitting in church on Sunday thinking these random thoughts. Yeah....bet you are wondering if the speakers were boring. )

There is a answer to both of those since the presiding authority is always last to speak.

[Misshalfway]

You know Apple....I used to be where it sounds like you are. I used to support everything the church did unconditionally and without question. I trusted it and the altruism behind it even when the practices weren't perfect.

But then life happened to me and changed my ability. I had to question. I had to turn everything on its head. I suppose I am still in that mode a bit. And I don't feel bad about questioning traditions of men, because that and even the church organization itself is a temporal thing. It isn't the kingdom of God! It is a tool for the kingdom of God and sometimes we have areas in which we can improve and even should improve. I kinda feel like the church is like a person -- intrinsically good but still needing to grow. Isn't it healthy for the church to take a gut check on its practices once in a while?

I hadn't intended this thread to get serious, but maybe it is a good thing it did.

[lilered]

At the risk of perhaps getting someones ire up, it has been my expierence that these types of subjects are much more important to women than men. Most men and/or Priesthood holders could care less about who is first or last. In fact, if the truth be known, a lot of our leaders are being pushed by their brides instead of being a leader. In the great scheme of the Gospel Plan, does it really matter who speakes first or last. Just remember, God house is a house of order which includes being led by the Priesthood?

[Misshalfway]

I totally agree Lilered. In fact I couldn't agree more! I don't think a good meeting is based on who the last speaker is anyway. I have never felt that way. I get the whole presiding authority thing. But that is only when presiding authority is relevant. The rest of the time Sac Meeting effectiveness is a crap shoot. The bishopric does their best....the speakers do their best too, even if speaking isn't their bag, and the audience takes home what they are open to receive. I think this, above all, is why I question our habits. Sometimes they don't make sense to me and they aren't stated in the handbook, yet we do them anyway. We are conditioned to do them anyway and we don't even know why.