Question???? (its a good one too) :D

[mel6890]

ok, so i've heard about this spirit prison thing and i went and looked it up on the mormon beliefs, so i know how it works. but i am curious how you reconcile this with biblical teachings, there is no mention of spirit prison, or that there is any way you can be saved after you die, in fact i think its pretty cut and dry jesus=heaven, no jesus=hell. i am confused can you please explain?

thanks

[bmy-]

ok, so i've heard about this spirit prison thing and i went and looked it up on the mormon beliefs, so i know how it works. but i am curious how you reconcile this with biblical teachings, there is no mention of spirit prison, or that there is any way you can be saved after you die, in fact i think its pretty cut and dry jesus=heaven, no jesus=hell. i am confused can you please explain?

thanks

"18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;"

(1 Peter 3:18-19)

Sheol = the grave.. it's mistranslated as 'Hell' in most Bibles.. It's simply a place of waiting.

[BenRaines]

Hmmm, looks like Peter knew of spirit prison or spirits that were in prison. If there are spirits there and it was a prison would it be spirit prision? I say yes.

On the other point I believe in a loving God and a loving Christ. I just don't see them saying "Sorry you lived before the Word of God or Jesus Christ was preached or you lived in a part of the world that ever even heard the words Jesus Christ, so you are going to hell".

Ben Raines

Ben Raines

[tubaloth]

I have to assume that Christ's Atonement reaches more then just the time frame He lived?

(or else I have no hope of salvation)

When know part of the reason Christ did what He did was so we can overcome death!

But then for some reason you believe that those in the next life (That get resurrected because of Christ) have no way of learning about Jesus Christ?

in fact i think its pretty cut and dry jesus=heaven, no jesus=hell.

Thats the whole point of having the spirit world (Paradise and Prison)

Like the scripture teaches in Peter. Those that pass on can be judged the same as those that had Christ Gospel taught to us, because those that pass on still get to be taught about Jesus Christ and his gospel! The whole point of Baptism for the Dead, and temple work!

[Hemidakota]

Exactly where is the Spirit Prison?

[Hemidakota]

For LDS members, Elder Ludlow stated about the Spirit Prison:

In Latter-day Saint doctrine the "spirit prison" is both a condition and a place within the postearthly spirit world. One "imprisons" himself or herself through unbelief or through willful disobedience of God. In such circumstances, one's opportunities in the afterlife will be limited. Those who willfully rebel against the light and truth of the gospel and do not repent remain in this condition of imprisonment and suffer spiritual death, which is a condition of hell (Alma 12:16-18; D&C 76:36-37). Furthermore, since a fulness of joy is not possible without the resurrected body, the waiting in the spirit world for the resurrection is a type of imprisonment (D&C 45:17; 93:33-34; 138:16, 17, 50). However, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ all have a promise of resurrection, and thus of eventual release from this type of spirit prison, although the unrepentant will still be imprisoned by their unbelief (seeDamnation).

Another more far-reaching definition of "spirit prison" is hell. In this sense, spirit prison is a temporary abode in the spirit world of those who either were untaught and unrighteous, or were disobedient to the gospel while in mortal life (cf. Alma 40:11-14; D&C 138:32).

As part of his redemptive mission, Jesus Christ visited the spirit world during the interlude between his own death and resurrection, and "from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness"-in other words, to the spirits in prison (D&C 138:30; cf. 1 Pet. 3:18-20; 4:6). Thus, the gulf between paradise and hell that is spoken of in Jesus' parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31) was bridged by the Savior's ministry in the spirit world. This bridging allows interaction among the righteous and wicked spirits to the extent that the faithful present the gospel to "those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets" (D&C 138:32). Latter-day Saints believe that preaching the gospel in the spirit world continues today and will continue until every soul who wishes to do so and repents properly will be released from such imprisonment.

Repentance of imprisoned spirits opens the doors of the prison, enabling them to loose themselves from the spiritual darkness of unbelief, ignorance, and sin. As they accept the gospel of Jesus Christ and cast off their sins, the repentant are able to break the chains of hell and dwell with the righteous in paradise. Encyclopedia of Mormonism Volume 4

by Daniel H. Ludlow [see also Salvation of the Dead.]

[FunkyTown]

Exactly where is the Spirit Prison?

On Spirit Avenue, between Spirit Starbucks and Spirit Walmart.

[Hemidakota]

Andrew did a marvelous work on his book called "The Garden Tomb" and one of the chapters went to great lengths in explaining on the subject, "His Ministry in the Spirit World".

A Great Division

During his mortal ministry, Jesus had spoken of the great division in the world of spirits. His *best-*known illustration of that doctrine and reality came in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. A certain rich man, who lived in opulence, and a beggar named Lazarus, who lived in abject poverty and misery, both died. The former looked up from hell (spirit prison) and saw Lazarus in Abraham's bosom (paradise). The rich man cried out to Father Abraham to send Lazarus to bring him some relief. Abraham responded by explaining that in the spirit world the law of complete justice holds sway (including equity, fairness, recompense for thoughts and deeds, and recompense for mortality's injustices). "Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented" (Luke 16:25).

This part of the story simply reinforces what we already know about the lasting effects of the Savior's atonement: As a result of Gethsemane and Golgotha, justice becomes the friend of the righteous! All the injustices and unfairnesses of mortality are made up to the humble followers of *Jesus—*all of this world's inequities are made right and whole and fair for eternity. This is one of the most magnificent and *gratitude-*inspiring aspects of Jesus' unmatched act of love. If we honestly commit to follow him, he promises that the stain of our sins will be removed, and every pain, every sorrow, every sickness, every heartache not of our own making will be soothed and salved and healed. Every unfair circumstance of life will be made up to us. Our condition in eternity will not be determined by what happened to us but rather what will happen in us as a result of the Savior's atonement.

The other great lesson about life beyond our mortal probation comes in the next verse of the parable and illustrates the environment of the spirit world into which Jesus entered. "And beside all this," says Abraham to the rich man, "between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot: neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence" (Luke 16:26; emphasis added). Of course, Lazarus and the rich man represent the two basic categories of people found in mortality (righteous and unrighteous), and the profound lesson of the parable focuses on their separation in the eternities, beginning in the spirit world. In the spirit world of Jesus' day, the great gulf prevented any social interchange between the righteous and the unrighteous. Elder Bruce R. McConkie further taught that the two groups of people, represented by the rich man and Lazarus "knew each other in mortality, so they remember their former acquaintanceship. But no longer are they accessible to each other so that one might minister to the needs of the other. Christ [had] not yet bridged the gulf between the prison and palace, and there [was] as yet no communion between the righteous in paradise and the wicked in hell" ( Mortal Messiah, 3:263). Thus, the parable of the rich man and Lazarus not only illustrates the existence of a great division, including the idea that justice operates in the next life and that there is torment awaiting the wicked, but also the fact that each individual will remember the associations and experiences of this mortal life.

Long before the Savior taught and ministered personally on the earth as the mortal Messiah, Book of Mormon prophets spoke of the great division in the spirit world. Nephi, speaking almost six hundred years before the birth of Jesus, said of the fountain of filthy waters in his father's dream: "It was an awful gulf, which separated the wicked from the tree of life, and also from the saints of God" (1 Nephi 15:28). In this verse Nephi told his audience that the awful gulf not only separated the unrigh*teous from the righteous or "saints of God" but also that it separated the unrighteous from the tree of life, which is a symbol for Jesus Christ himself as Nephi learned earlier (1 Nephi 11:4–7, 9–22). *Twenty-*five hundred years later, another prophet, Joseph F. Smith, would receive a vision of the spirit world and see that Nephi was exactly *right—*the wicked in the world of spirits were never privileged to enjoy the physical presence of the Savior, nor hear his voice in person, when he entered the spirit world (D&C 138:20–21). The unrighteous were indeed separated from the tree of life by an awful gulf.

Centuries after Nephi, another Book of Mormon prophet, Alma, uttered what is arguably the classic statement on the great unbridged division that existed in the spirit world before the coming of Christ to the ranks of the disembodied spirits:

And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.

And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are *evil—*for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their *house—*and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.

Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in *paradise, until the time of their resurrection. (Alma 40:12–14)

Conditions in the Two Realms

Alma's discourse on the world of spirits is very helpful for its description of the spirit world when Jesus went there. The righteous lived in *paradise—*a state of happiness and peace, a place where, according to President Joseph F. Smith, they could "expand in wisdom, where they have respite from all their troubles, and where care and sorrow [did] not annoy" (Gospel Doctrine, 448). It truly was an environment where the hardships, struggles, and pains of mortality, especially those associated with the physical body, were left behind.

Paradise is a place where the spirit is free to think and act with a renewed capacity and with the vigor and enthusiasm which characterized one in his prime. Though a person does not rest per se from the work associated with the plan of salvation (for . . . that labor goes forward with at least an equal intensity in the spirit world), at the same time he is delivered from those cares and worries associated with a fallen world and a corrupt body. (Millet and McConkie, Life Beyond, 18)

On the other hand, that part of the spirit world called hell or spirit prison was a place where there was weeping, hardship, and misery. Hell was and is both a place and a condition or state of mind. As the Prophet Joseph Smith explained, it is hell because of mental torment and anguish owing to disobedience and lack of repentance in mortality. "The great misery of departed spirits in the world of spirits, where they go after death, is to know that they come short of the glory that others enjoy and that they might have enjoyed themselves, and they are their own accusers" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 310–11). On another occasion the Prophet reinforced this doctrine by stating that "a man is his own tormentor and condemner. Hence the saying, They shall go in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone. The torment of disappointment in the mind of man is as exquisite as a lake burning with fire and brimstone" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 357).

Thus, those who were confined to that part of the spirit world known as spirit prison or hell, from Adam's day to the time when the Savior himself entered the spirit world, were awakened to a lively sense of their own guilt and shrank from the Spirit and presence of the Lord (Mosiah 2:38; Mormon 9:3–4). They themselves did not want, of their own free will and choice, to be in the presence of the temporarily disembodied Messiah, the Jehovah of earlier days, the man known as Jesus of Nazareth in the meridian dispensation. Hence, Jesus did not move among the wicked, did not have any interaction with *them—*both on account of their own desires as well as his own inability to look upon, to tolerate, to be in the presence of unrepented sin (D&C 1:31). The "damnation of hell," said Joseph Smith, is "to go with that society who have not obeyed His commands" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 198). The distasteful environment of hell is intensified precisely because a person is forced to dwell with other wicked and depraved individuals. Jesus had already experienced the environment of hell once before, during his time in Gethsemane. He would not go back.

Death—*a Partial Judgment

At least three other significant implications of the doctrine of the great gulf or division in the spirit world are important to mention. First, the existence of the two separate places of abode for the spirits of the departed implies at least a partial judgment at the time of death. The disembodied spirits of all who have ever lived on the earth will receive a temporary inheritance in either paradise or spirit prison based on their actions in mortality. At the time of death each individual will be judged according to several factors.

These include the following:

1. A person's accountability and age (Mosiah 3:16; Moroni 8:8–19); little children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved automatically in the celestial kingdom of heaven (D&C 137:10)

2. The degree of knowledge individuals possessed, and their opportunity for righteous living during their mortal probation (Moroni 8:22; 2 Nephi 9:25–26)

3. A person's deeds, desires, and intents or motives (Mosiah 4:6; 1 Nephi 15:33; D&C 33:1; Alma 41:3; D&C 137:9)

4. Individuals' own acknowledgment of their true standing before the *Lord—*a *self-*judgment, if you will (2 Nephi 9:46; Mosiah 16:1; 27:31; 29:12)

Elder Bruce R. McConkie teaches an important concept when he speaks of death as a day of judgment:

Death itself is an initial day of judgment for all persons, both the righteous and the wicked. When the spirit leaves the body at death, it is taken home to that God who gave it life, meaning that it returns to live in the realm of spiritual existence (Eccles. 17:7). At that time the spirit undergoes a partial judgment and is assigned an inheritance in paradise or in hell to await the day of the first or second resurrection. (Mormon Doctrine, 402)

The second implication of the doctrine of a great gulf in the spirit world is the question of who is deemed righteous and who is not, and what the ultimate criteria are for determining who receives paradise and who does not. President Joseph Fielding Smith provides clear, invaluable commentary on this question:

It is the righteous who go to paradise. It is the righteous who cease from those things that trouble. Not so with the wicked. They remain in torment. . . . They are aware of their neglected opportunities, privileges in which they might have served the Lord and received a reward of restfulness. . . .

The righteous, those who have kept the commandments of the Lord, are not shut up in any such place, but are in happiness in paradise. . . .

All spirits of men after death return to the spirit world. There, as I understand it, the *righteous—*meaning those who have been baptized and who have been *faithful—*are gathered in one part and all the others in another part of the spirit world. (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:229–30; emphasis added)

Thus, President Smith cites two criteria which are the final or ultimate determiners of the destiny of the spirits of all men and women: keeping the commandments and participating in the ordinance of baptism. In other words, the righteous are those who had "been faithful in the testimony of Jesus while they lived in mortality; and who had offered sacrifice in the similitude of the great sacrifice of the Son of God, and suffered tribulation in their Redeemer's name" (D&C 138:12–13). The righteous in the spirit world are also referred to as "the spirits of the just" (D&C 138:12). They are those who lived the celestial law while in mortality. The ranks of the wicked on the other *hand—*those in spirit *prison—*are composed of men and women who lived a terrestrial or a telestial law in mortality. This includes those who died without knowing the law of the gospel or the truths of salvation; those who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterward received it; those who received not the gospel of Christ nor the testimony of Jesus at all; those thrust down to hell (D&C 76:72–84).

Even though there were good people living on the earth before the birth of Jesus, those who did not have the opportunity of hearing about the Messiah or accepting the gospel message had to wait in that part of the spirit world called spirit prison, or hell, until the arrival of the Savior in the spirit world made it possible for them to hear the gospel preached. Again, Elder McConkie corroborates that the circumstances or environment existing in the spirit world prior to the Savior's visit affected every person who had ever lived and died upon the earth:

There was no intermingling by the spirits in paradise and hell until after Christ bridged the "great gulf" between these two spirit abodes (Alma 40:11–14). This he did while his body lay in the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea and his own disembodied spirit continued to minister to men in their spirit prison (1 Peter 3:18–21; 4:6; Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed., pp. 472– 476). "Until that day" the prisoners remained bound and the gospel was not preached to them (Moses 7:37–39). The hope of salvation for the dead was yet future. (Doctrinal New Testament Com*mentary, 1:521–22)

In truth, the term prison, though used to distinguish one part of the spirit world from the other part, called paradise, also applies to the whole of the spirit world. All of the spirit world is, in a sense, a prison. This is true because the spirits of both the righteous and the wicked are separated from their physical bodies, and to be without one's physical body is an intensely undesirable state of bondage. In the words of the revelation to President Joseph F. Smith: "For the dead [the righteous dead] had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage" (D&C 138:50). So, even though the spirits of the righteous will be happy in paradise, they will not be, cannot be, perfectly happy while a part of them is lying in the grave. In the language of the revelations of the Restoration, the spirit and the body are the soul of man. When inseparably connected, the spirit and the physical body can receive a fulness of joy. When separated they cannot receive a fulness of joy (D&C 88:15; 93:33; 138:17). Without their physical bodies, the spirits of all men and women "are in prison," said President Brigham Young ( Journal of Discourses, 3:95).

Elder Melvin J. Ballard gave this explanation:

I grant you that the righteous dead will be at peace, but I tell you that when we go out of this life, leave this body, we will desire to do many things that we cannot do at all without the body. We will be seriously handicapped, and we will long for the body; we will pray for the early reunion with our bodies. . . .

. . . we are sentencing ourselves to long periods of bondage, separating our spirits from our bodies, or we are shortening that period, according to the way in which we overcome and master ourselves [in mortality]. (Quoted in Hinckley, Sermons and Missionary Services of Melvin Joseph Ballard, 240–42)

This leads us to a third implication of the doctrine of the great gulf in the spirit world. It is significant that modern prophets and inspired teachers who have spoken about conditions extant in the spirit world not only talk about the great gulf or division of spirits before the Savior's visit but also speak of that division in the present tense. This is so because the great gulf, though bridged by the Savior for the first time when he visited the spirit world, still exists. The spirits of the wicked are still separated from the spirits of the righteous in our day, and that gulf is removed only by the preaching of the gospel and its acceptance by the spirits in spirit prison, or hell.

Concerning the environment that has existed in the spirit world since the Savior's liberating visit two thousand years ago, Elder Heber C. Kimball said: "Can those persons who pursue a course of carelessness, neglect of duty, and disobedience, when they depart from this life, expect that their spirits will associate with the spirits of the righteous in the spirit world? I do not expect it, and when you depart from this state of existence, you will find out for yourselves" (Journal of Discourses, 2:150).

Elder Parley P. Pratt likewise described the conditions of the spirit world all of us will encounter when we die:

The spirit world is not the heaven where Jesus Christ, his Father, and other beings dwell who have, by resurrection or translation, ascended to eternal mansions and been crowned and seated on thrones of power; but it is an intermediate state, a probation, a place of *preparation, improvement, instruction, or education, where spirits are chastened and improved and where, if found worthy, they may be taught a knowledge of the gospel. In short, it is a place where the gospel is preached and where faith, repentance, hope, and charity may be exercised; a place of waiting for the resurrection or redemption of the body; while to those who deserve it, it is a place of punishment, a purgatory or hell, where spirits are buffeted till the day of redemption. ( Key to the Science of Theology, 80)

Andrew C. Skinner, The Garden Tomb (Salt Lake City 2005)

[FunkyTown]

Hey, thanks Hemi. As smarmy and off-the-cuff as my comment was, this was really helpful. Good talk.

[Book_of_Mormon_Warrior]

Alma 40

[11] Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection -- Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.

[12] And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.

[13] And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil -- for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house -- and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.

[14] Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.

[mnn727]

Establishing that there is a spirit world separate from Heaven and Hell.

Luke 23:

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

So Today (the day of crucifiction) the Theif would be with Jesus in Paradise -- sounds pretty straightforward, However when Mary first saw Jesus after the crucifiction and burial we have:

John 20

15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.

16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.

So during the time from His crucifixion until His resurrection Christ was NOT in Heaven yet he told the thief on the cross that TODAY he would be with him in paradise. Did Jesus lie?...of course not. so where did he go?

1 Peter 3

18 ¶ For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

So he preached to spirits in Prison...not people alive in His day, but to spirits that were alive in the time of Noah...over 2000 years before His time on Earth. Why did He do this??

1st Peter 4

6 For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

The gospel was preached to the dead that they may live according to God (by His laws) even though they were not alive

[Elgama]

I am just wondering though do we need to reconcile it with Biblical Teachings its like an orthodox Jew asking a Christian to verify their view of Hell and Satan using the Torah.

My Jewish friends when I talk to them view hell as a temporary state and more of a therapy not a punishment, although not an imprisonment. In many ways this is closer to the LDS spirit prison than the standard Christian Hell.

We have modern revelation that clearly states there is a spirit prison, surely for a Latter Day Saint that is enough?

-Charley.

[livy111us]

1 Pet 3:19 19 By which also he went and apreached unto the bspirits in cprison;

Luke 16:19-31

19 ¶ There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain abeggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the aangels into bAbraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in ahell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime areceivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great agulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have aMoses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the adead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they ahear not Moses and the bprophets, neither will they be cpersuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Heb. 9:27--"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"

2 Tim 4:1--"I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;"

Rev. 20:12-13--"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

Acts 2:31--"He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption."

Rev. 6:11--"And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

And a few quotes from early Christians:

"Do you dare to laugh at us when we speak of Gehenna, and fires that cannot be quenched...into which we have learned that souls are cast...They are cast in, and being annihilated, they pass away vainly in everlasting destruction. For theirs is an in-between state, as has been learned by Christs teaching." (Ante-Nicene Fathers 6:439-440, Arnobius, 305 AD, E)

Tertullian wrote "Therefore, whatever amount of punishment or refreshment the soul tastes in Hades, in its prison or lodging, in the fire or in Abraham's bosom, it gives proof thereby of its own

corporeality." (Tertullian, On the Soul 7, Ante-Nicene Fathers 3:187)

In the book "Dialogue with Trypho the Jew", which was written in 155 A.D. by Justin

the Martyr, a great teacher, who established a school for Christian philosophy, he gives an

account of a conversation between an old man who set him on the path to Christianity, and

himself. It says "Yet, I do not say that all souls will die; for that would be a God-send for the wicked. But what? The souls of the pious remain in some better place, the unjust and evil in a

worse, awaiting the time of judgment." (Ante-Nicene Fathers 1:197)

St. Irenaeus (120-202 A.D.), who was the Bishop of Lyons, wrote in 180 A.D. in his letter "Against Heresies" that "for since the Lord went away into the midst of the shadow of death where the souls of the dead were, and afterwards arose in the body, ...his disciples, on account of which the Lord underwent these things, will go away into the place allotted them by God. And there they will delay until the resurrection, waiting to be raised up..." (Ante-Nicene Fathers 1:560-561)

To name a few....

[NeuroTypical]

ok, so i've heard about this spirit prison thing and i went and looked it up on the mormon beliefs, so i know how it works. but i am curious how you reconcile this with biblical teachings, there is no mention of spirit prison, or that there is any way you can be saved after you die, in fact i think its pretty cut and dry jesus=heaven, no jesus=hell. i am confused can you please explain?

"18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;"

(1 Peter 3:18-19)

Sheol = the grave.. it's mistranslated as 'Hell' in most Bibles.. It's simply a place of waiting.

Here's hoping Mel will be revisiting this thread to let us know what she thinks of 1 Peter 3...

LM

[mnn727]

On Spirit Avenue, between Spirit Starbucks and Spirit Walmart.

Boy that would be a really bad place to be

[mel6890]

Its fuuny, one of my mormon friends just asked me what i thought of this verse after i posted this on the forum so i'm just going copy my answer. also, i found some teachings about this online that might make my explanation make more sense, because i'm definitely not an expert:

I don't believe this passage is saying that Jesus literally went and preached to the spirits in some sort of spirit prison immediately after he was crucifies, because, hebrews 9:27 says that “man is destined to die once and after that, face judgement” so, according to this, our destination after death (heaven or hell) is immediately determined. Also, I don't think prison is referring to hell either, because in the story of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 19-31. In which, Hell is described as having a great chasm separating it, so no one can leave, once they are there, and no one can go there who wasn't supposed to.

So, in this passage, it says that Jesus preached to the spirits in prison, but in light of the above verses, there is no way that Jesus could go the hell, and the bible is also clear that there is no other option. So, I noticed that it said Jesus Preached to the spirits currently in prison through the spirit, but the verse never says when he actually did. But peter mentions Noah later on, so I think it means that Jesus preached to the spirits through Noah, by the holy spirit while the ark was being built. Obviously, Noah didn't know Jesus by name, but he did know that God promised a messiah and he was waiting and expecting it to happen. (btw, thats how I think people are saved who lived before Christ, by believing and having faith in God's promise of a savior and waiting for him). Also, I think I should note that in order for it to make sense that jesus reached those who lived before him through the holy spirit, I should note that I believe there is one God existing in three different forms (father, son and spirit).

so, thats the best answer i can give, i have never heard anyone actually preach on the topic (ironically my church is doing a series on 1st peter and we will get there in a few weeks) But i have talked to some people i know who are very knowledgable about the bible, i didn't just pull this answer out of a hat. here is more info that i found about it online if it will help to clarify what i wrote:

This verse is not saying that Christ went and preached to those

already in prison or torment.

(1) In the account of the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man was

in torment because he had rejected the word of the Lord as

taught by Moses. Lazarus, apparently, had not rejected the

word of the Lord. (Luke 16:19-31)

(2) The word “prison” which is used in I Peter 3:19 is translated

from the Greek word “phulake” {foo-lak-ay’} which means

“1) guard, watch 1a) a watching, keeping watch ... 1c) of the

place where captives are kept, a prison.” (Thayer)

(3) Rather than the term “prison” referring to Paradise, one of the

two divisions of “sheol”(the realm of the dead), it would

seem more fitting for the “prison” to refer to “tartaroo” or

torment; torment being the abode of the wicked dead prior to

judgment.

(4) When Christ died, He did not go to “tartaroo” or torment, but

rather, He went to Paradise. (Luke 23:43)

b. The preaching that was done to those who lived during the days of

Noah, was done by the Spirit through Noah.

(1) “. . . but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went

and preached. . .” (1 Peter 3:18-19)

(2) Jesus was quickened by the same Spirit who, through Noah,

preached to those who lived during the days of Noah.

c. Those who had rejected Noah’s message ended up in “prison” or

torment; just like the rich man. (vs 19-20; Luke 16:19-31)

d. NOTE: Some believe that the prison referred to in 3:19 is referring to

the 120 years of waiting while Noah built the ark, having nothing to

do with tartaroo or torment. They believe that the “prison” was

referring to their state of guilt of sin while the ark was being prepared.

C. Because of the suffering of Christ, the unjust living today are saved by baptism. (1

Peter 3:21)

1. During the days of Noah, eight souls were saved by water. Noah and his

family obeyed God by building the ark. Water was used to keep the ark

afloat. As a result of this, eight souls were saved through the use of water.

2. In the same manner (like figure, antitype) baptism now saves.

October 19, 2003 File #: 718

3. There is nothing special in the water of baptism; just as there was nothing

special about the waters that flooded the earth.

4. Water saves a person when they obey God's commands. Just as Noah and his

family was saved because they obeyed God, people today are also saved when

they obey God's command to be baptized.

D. Salvation for the unjust through obeying the command to be baptized (Mark 16:16)

was made possible by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. (1 Peter 3:21)

1. Jesus Christ is in heaven at the right hand of God. (vs 22)

2. All angels, authorities, and powers are subject to Christ. (vs 22)

[LittleWyvern]

We don't necessarily know the plan of salvation only because of the Bible, but also because of modern-day revelation and the Book of Mormon. Admittedly, we both probably look at the same verses in the Bible through different lenses of understanding. So, I think the simplest way to learn about how the LDS Church answers your questions is to learn about the plan of salvation as we believe it.

[Islander]

Its fuuny, one of my mormon friends just asked me what i thought of this verse after i posted this on the forum so i'm just going copy my answer. also, i found some teachings about this online that might make my explanation make more sense, because i'm definitely not an expert:

I don't believe this passage is saying that Jesus literally went and preached to the spirits in some sort of spirit prison immediately after he was crucifies, because, hebrews 9:27 says that “man is destined to die once and after that, face judgement” so, according to this, our destination after death (heaven or hell) is immediately determined. Also, I don't think prison is referring to hell either, because in the story of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 19-31. In which, Hell is described as having a great chasm separating it, so no one can leave, once they are there, and no one can go there who wasn't supposed to.

Dear mel

I certainly understand and appreciate your curiosity. But what you believe or think is not necessarily the issue here. With no desire to antagonize, let me suggest that inquiry is about exploring the possibilities. If you already made up your mind about this issue it will profit you very little to argue.

One of the greatest blessings of prophesy is that God opens the windows of heaven for the prophet (in the case of the whole church) or to you personally and gives you a glimpse of the truth. Then as now, existing doctrine, practice and belief may or may not be in synch with the will of the Lord so NEW revelation is necessary. It is ground breaking and disruptive but the will of HIM whom we serve. Let me give you an example.

ALL (just about) early Christians were Jews. They were not sure how to treat and deal with Gentiles converts to Christianity. The differences were many and profound. Peter sought and received revelation that neither circumcision or kosher law (Mosaic) rules applied any longer as a condition to being a Christian. (Acts 10 and 15).

Traditional Christianity had varying interpretation of the passage referring to "spirit prison." Modern revelation sheds ample light into what it means. But even if you knew nothing about latter day revelation, it goes to follow that the righteous would not dwell with the wicked in heaven while awaiting resurrection. Spirit prison is not hell. That particular place is set aside for those that willfully and willingly rebelled against God, denied the Christ and the Holy Spirit.

Your choice is rather simple. You can hold on to your own interpretation of 1 Pet 3:19 or inquire and seek the truth thru prayer and study of the revelation of God to shed light into a 2000 year old phrase. They knew precisely what it meant thus they saw no need to clarify. It appears you still don't.

[NeuroTypical]

i am curious how you reconcile this with biblical teachings, there is no mention of spirit prison

1 Peter 3:18-19 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

I don't believe this passage is saying that Jesus literally went and preached to the spirits in some sort of spirit prison...

Well, if you're gonna argue with your own Bible, and instead rely on the words of people who are also arguing with your own Bible, there's really not a heck of a lot we can do for ya mel... Edited February 8, 2009 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[JohnnyRudick]

There have been many great answers to the questions put forth here in this thread.

I would like to add a couple of extra thoughts into this great discussion if you don't mind.

Follow close as my thoughts may to some seem somewhat jumbled.

I am going to try here- if you will with me;-)

"1 Peter 3

18 ¶ For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

So he preached to spirits in Prison...not people alive in His day, but to spirits that were alive in the time of Noah...over 2000 years before His time on Earth. Why did He do this??"

From the time of Adam up to the time of the resurrection we had a condition known as "Hell" that had a great gulf fixed between the so-called righteous and the so-called wicked.

This was also a place where many if not all the "angels that "fell" were locked up.

Not a very good place to be soooooo

The righteous were in a divided off section known as "Abraham's Bosom".

That is where Lazarus visited in the story told by Jesus in the above story.

I believe that this "Hell" was in the Earth at least from the time of Noah up to the resurrection of Jesus.

When Jesus died on the cross it was at that time that He . . .

1 Peter 3

18 ¶ For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

The "saved by water" phrase is covered above well enough and needs no clearing up at this time.

Jesus according to the scriptures preached to these righteous people in Abraham's Bosom His death and with the keys of Hell he freed these people out of Hell into a separate place apart from there into a place He called Paradise.

Acts 2:31--"He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption."

That is the place good people now go to to wait the resurrection of their bodies.

Where they are preached to by those who carry on the work of the Savior, and work to help those who have died without the knowledge of the gospel.

Luke 23:

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

When Jesus met Mary afterward he said He had not yet presented His Sacrificed body before the Father.

This is quite another thing from breaking the bands of death, re-organizing Hell and Paradise in new situations.

"The gospel was preached to the dead that they may live according to God (by His laws) even though they were not alive"

Yes.

That is right.

There will be a resurrection and all the dead will be judged in the flesh. Each to their own level but the judgment will be just.

Some will receive in the spirit world the good news, others maybe not so good news of their coming judgment.

They will have a chance to make the news better.

That is the Good News.

Bro. Rudick

[mel6890]

Its fuuny, one of my mormon friends just asked me what i thought of this verse after i posted this on the forum so i'm just going copy my answer. also, i found some teachings about this online that might make my explanation make more sense, because i'm definitely not an expert:

I don't believe this passage is saying that Jesus literally went and preached to the spirits in some sort of spirit prison immediately after he was crucifies, because, hebrews 9:27 says that “man is destined to die once and after that, face judgement” so, according to this, our destination after death (heaven or hell) is immediately determined. Also, I don't think prison is referring to hell either, because in the story of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 19-31. In which, Hell is described as having a great chasm separating it, so no one can leave, once they are there, and no one can go there who wasn't supposed to.

Dear mel

I certainly understand and appreciate your curiosity. But what you believe or think is not necessarily the issue here. With no desire to antagonize, let me suggest that inquiry is about exploring the possibilities. If you already made up your mind about this issue it will profit you very little to argue.

One of the greatest blessings of prophesy is that God opens the windows of heaven for the prophet (in the case of the whole church) or to you personally and gives you a glimpse of the truth. Then as now, existing doctrine, practice and belief may or may not be in synch with the will of the Lord so NEW revelation is necessary. It is ground breaking and disruptive but the will of HIM whom we serve. Let me give you an example.

ALL (just about) early Christians were Jews. They were not sure how to treat and deal with Gentiles converts to Christianity. The differences were many and profound. Peter sought and received revelation that neither circumcision or kosher law (Mosaic) rules applied any longer as a condition to being a Christian. (Acts 10 and 15).

Traditional Christianity had varying interpretation of the passage referring to "spirit prison." Modern revelation sheds ample light into what it means. But even if you knew nothing about latter day revelation, it goes to follow that the righteous would not dwell with the wicked in heaven while awaiting resurrection. Spirit prison is not hell. That particular place is set aside for those that willfully and willingly rebelled against God, denied the Christ and the Holy Spirit.

Your choice is rather simple. You can hold on to your own interpretation of 1 Pet 3:19 or inquire and seek the truth thru prayer and study of the revelation of God to shed light into a 2000 year old phrase. They knew precisely what it meant thus they saw no need to clarify. It appears you still don't.

look, i realize that what i believe is not the issue here, and if i wasn't specifically asked what i thought of 1 peter 3, i never would have said anything. I don't know about you, but when i am asked about what i believe, i'm not going to refrain from saying it. Second, I have not made up my mind about this issue if i already knew, i would not have asked. However, i am obviously not lds, but i have been looking a great deal into the church. but despite that, I'm not ignorant. I am a christian and i have grown up with a set of beliefs, so when asked about something (like i was about 1st peter 3) its obviously going to fit with what i believe. It has nothing to do with whether or not i am willing to accept another view of something, I will never take anything by blind faith, nor will accept the views of the mormon church, until my questions are answered. I do seek the truth and i will accept which ever view has more truth in it, but right now, i think there are large holes in your guys' answers, which is why i don't accept it, not that i never will, but those holes need to be filled in first.

[mel6890]

obviously i meant spirit prison in the lds sense, I am not arguing with my own bible, but think what you want.

[Islander]

obviously i meant spirit prison in the lds sense, I am not arguing with my own bible, but think what you want.

If you read the KJV then we are reading the same bible. Again, this is not to antagonize but rather to be able to suspend judgment for a second. What I mean about withholding what we think we know and believe it is so that it often gets in the way of new knowledge. It is not intentional but just a socially conditioned response.

Please follow the example. In 1 Peter 3:18 the Apostle is talking to us about the fact that the Savior paid for our sins. Although He was without blame he paid for our transgression. It was so in order for us to die (physically) but not so spiritually, being awaken and reborn by the Holy Spirit.

In verse 19 states that for the same reason He (Christ) preached to the spirits in prison which were those spirits of the long dead since the time of Noah. Those that did not hearken to the word and the warning of the prophet to repent and come onto the ark. They were those that since the time of the flood waited. The law being fulfilled in Christ and to satisfy both, justice and mercy, He went and preached to them the good news. The same is repeated in 1 Peter 4:5-6. Christ will judge the living and the (already) dead. Since the Law can not save, the Gospel must be preached to those that have passed on as well without hearing the Gospel and knowing about the Christ and salvation. So they can choose to accept it and live with/in the kingdom of God. All things being equal, God will not judge the righteous with the wicked not will he punish those that ignorantly sinned. This language and scripture is used only by Peter. Again, it seemed clear to the early saints, why not so to us today?

Before you go looking for a third party interpretation of the scriptures quoted above, read on your own and pray about what it says. I am a fairly recent convert to the LDS church and even years before that, those scriptures always gave me a sense of the fairness and mercy of Christ for those that died without really knowing Him which are in the billions.

As far as this life being the only chance to repent and look onto Christ? Yes it is. If the Gospel is presented to you and the plan of salvation laid before you and you choose to reject it you are done. No more chances will be given to you for you willfully and intentionally rejected the news about the means for salvation.

Edited February 14, 2009 by Islander

[gabelpa]

Mel, I will be up-front. I just read through your original post, and the last page.

You asked how we reconcile our belief in Spirit Prison with the Bible, when it is clearly mentioned, and our beliefs fit within the restricted information we have in the Bible. Look up the Orthodox Jewish doctrine of Sheol, and you will find something very similar to our beliefs, so what we believe must be reconcilable in Jewish scripture. What of the mention of Baptisms for the Dead? Bible bashing is not effective in person, and it is even less so on the Internet.

You asked how we reconcile our beliefs with the Bible, and this we have done. Is that not good enough for you? We have living Prophets to receive revelation, what you would call Scripture, direct from God. There is no middleman, no council to choose what should be in the Bible,and what should not, no body of elected or bought men to decide doctrine. Ours comes from God, take it or leave it.

[JohnnyRudick]

"Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but

after this the judgment:"

This verse does not declare in any way that immediately after death is the judgment mentioned in the verse.

It only tells us that the rule for man is that we live once and after we die we will be judged.

And that is absolutely true.

But the time for death and type of judgment, the verse is silent on.

Edited February 16, 2009 by JohnnyRudick
Afterthought;p