Not Taking The Sacrament...

[StrawberryFields]

If my memory serves me correctly, I thought that if you feel in your heart that you are unworthy to take the sacrament that you should not take it.

Just recently, someone told me that we should take the sacrament until we are instructed not to by our bishop. The reason why this person believes in this is because that when we take the sacrament we are renewing certain covenants. When we have sinned, and feel bad about our wrong doing, we might voluntarily stop taking the sacrament. One thing this does is make us feel even worse about ourselves. Another thing that if we a finally asked, by our bishops to stop taking it after we confess our sins, then our time without taking it is not part of the penance. In many cases the time we are away from the gospel, or when we punish ourselves, we loose something very important...our closeness with our savior. After, this was explained to me I began to see things in a different light. I have watched someone who had committed a sin voluntary stop taking the sacrament, shortly after that point they began to fall away in other areas, and now this person feels so badly about themselves that they feel that they are so very far away and the fight isn't worth the effort to return to the fold. This all has happened before even confessing the sin.

What are some of your feelings about a sinner taking the sacrament?

[juliet]

I didn't think it was possible to be unworthy to take the sacrament.

[StrawberryFields]

Sorry about the multipal posts of this topic. The server read ERROR

[Spencer]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields@Dec 6 2004, 01:54 AM

Sorry about the multipal posts of this topic. The server read ERROR

Fixed them

[Jenda]

The scriptures say that to partake of the sacrament unworthily is to eat and drink damnation to our souls. We should approach the table of the Lord in the right attitude. One of humility and repentance and gratitude. To do otherwise mocks the sacrifice that Christ made for us.

That argument would lead one to believe that if one is not repentant then they should not partake. I kind of agree. But the sacrament is also designed to strengthen our relationship with God, and when we don't partake, it weakens it. When we don't partake, we can get caught in this downward spiral of never feeling worthy enough to partake again.

As you noted in your post above, SF, not taking of the sacrament seemed to signal an end to that person's relationship with God, but the trouble started long before then. It started when that person first felt he could not approach the Lord in repentance, which, in turn, led them to feeling that they should not partake. I don't think it is, necessarily, the decision to not partake which is the problem, it is the feeling that God will not understand the problem. More to the point, it is that person not being able to forgive themselves that is causing the problem.

I have gotten into that downward spiral a few times, not being able to ask the Lord for forgiveness, refusing to take Communion, and sometimes, we just have to hit bottom before we can understand that God is not the one that has stepped away from us, but that we have stepped away from Him, and that where we are is not acceptable to ourselves anymore. And then, all we have to do is recognize that God loves us, no matter what, and with just a prayer, we can heal that relationship.

I think that not partaking of the emblems is just a symptom of the problem, and not the cause of it.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Jenda@Dec 6 2004, 07:56 AM

I have gotten into that downward spiral a few times, not being able to ask the Lord for forgiveness, refusing to take Communion, and sometimes, we just have to hit bottom before we can understand that God is not the one that has stepped away from us, but that we have stepped away from Him, and that where we are is not acceptable to ourselves anymore. And then, all we have to do is recognize that God loves us, no matter what, and with just a prayer, we can heal that relationship.

I think that not partaking of the emblems is just a symptom of the problem, and not the cause of it.

I appreciate all that you said, thank you Jenda. :)

The part that you said about not feeling acceptable to ourselves is the problem with this young person. No matter what others have told this person about their worth in the eyes of Our Father, they can not believe it. How can you help someone who has gotten into this spot? This person prays all the time but only in behalf of other people.

[Guest curvette]

I think members kind of went through a phase of self monitoring their participation in the sacrament. When I first joined the church it was common for people to abstain for something as simple as being a little mad at a sibling. Then I noticed that people were encouraged to take the sacrament unless told not to. Maybe too many Bishops were noticing members not participating in the ordinance, called them in to find out why and found out it was for very small infractions. That would be my guess. I think being "unworthy" to take the sacrament would have to be something pretty major, or total disbelief. I mean really, how can it help us retain a remission for sin if we haven't been sinning? Those are my thoughts.

[Ray]

I think we should take the sacrament unless we are instructed not to by our bishop. The reason I believe this is because when we take the sacrament we are renewing certain covenants. When we have sinned we should feel bad about our wrong doing, but we should not stop taking the sacrament unless our bishop has told us not to take it. And that of course means that if we feel unworthy, we should talk with our bishop, to receive counsel and encouragement from him. It may seem like an improper use of a bishop’s time, but that is one of the reasons that bishop is there... to help us recognize the things we have trouble recognizing on our own.

Btw, those covenants that we renew when we partake of the sacrament are the covenants we made at baptism, the covenants we made in the temple (if we've already made them), and the covenants we make when we partake of the sacrament.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Ray@Dec 6 2004, 05:33 PM

Btw, those covenants that we renew when we partake of the sacrament are the covenants we made at baptism, the covenants we made in the temple (if we've already made them), and the covenants we make when we partake of the sacrament.

Reaffirm. You are reaffirming the covenants. Covenants don't expire, so you don't need to renew them. You need to reaffirm them.

[Traveler]

Every person is as entitled to revelation concerning their life as much as a bishop, stake president or prophet is entitled to direct them. I believe that Jesus told us that we should not offer alms (in direct relation to covenants) if we are angry (ought) with another. His instruction was to go and settle our grievance and then return and offer our alms.

Many members do not understand that we should prepare to renew our covenants in the same manner in which we established our covenants. For example: we should not just show up to church on Sunday in a rush - hurry and sit down before they sing the sacrament hymn and then start preparing our lesson or some other thing. Not to appear judgmental but I have seen adults playing games on their PDA’s during the sacrament hymn and partaking of the sacrament.

I believe we should begin before the Sabbath to prepare for the sacrament to insure our worthiness or preparation. I believe some think worthiness means void of sin when I believe a more complete (perfect) meaning has to do with preparing ourselves and being ready. If you have not completed your preparation then my advice is do not take the sacrament. This may not be a matter that requires that you see your bishop. If you need help preparing for the sacrament I suggest you contact your priesthood quorum president, home teacher, visiting teacher or even a friend to discuss these things. It is not hard to figure these matter out and come to better understanding. In fact, just making an effort to prepare will increase someone’s understand by great measure. At least that has been my experience.

The Traveler

[Blessed]

Well said, T.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Traveler@Dec 6 2004, 10:00 PM

I believe we should begin before the Sabbath to prepare for the sacrament to insure our worthiness or preparation. I believe some think worthiness means void of sin when I believe a more complete (perfect) meaning has to do with preparing ourselves and being ready. If you have not completed your preparation then my advice is do not take the sacrament.

Unfortunately, the "Mormon way" (lots of kids, and meetings, meetings, meetings) often interfers with any peaceful preparation time immediately preceding the Sacrament. Especially for young mothers. I think they should take the sacrament anyway. That ten minutes may be the only peaceful time they are able to enjoy all week.

[Setheus]

I don't think dealing with restless children is anywhere near playing video games in sacrament. After all, the mother that is doing her best to keep her children in line is a sign of devotion to the Lord. After all wouldn't it be much simpler to just stay home and pop in an Elmo movie. But the bloke playing his games is in a way saying, "yah, I'm here God. Lets get this overwith so I can get back to whats really important to me".

[Traveler]

I think the "Mormon way" of family home evening is a good way to prepare children for the sacrement. Just a side note here - I was teaching a SS class of 12 and 13 year olds about fasting. In a class of over seven kids from good active familes only one had ever fasted (for a relative with cancer). None had ever fasted 24 hours. I contacted the parents and some parents had not introduced fasting because they thought it too hard for children of that age.

I am convinced that many struggle with sacred things because they think it is too hard. I think that is sad.

The Traveler

[StrawberryFields]

Today we live in a world that children are not taught something’s because it just isn't worth the fight to get there. My children a very different then I was when I was growing up. I think that many children have an opinion that the world revolves just for them. Unless you have recognized the blessings of fasting for yourself, it can be a completely pointless thing to do. I remember hearing my kids say, "Why do you call this fast Sunday"? "It's the slowest Sunday of the month!"

I believe that once children know why we fast they need to be taught by example. When Nick got hurt, our bishop called a special fast for the very next day on July 11. We had just had fast Sunday the week before but this time it was different, it was for another child. They fasted until after they met at 4:00 for a special meeting on Nick's progress in the chapel. Only those who participated in the fast came to the meeting and from what I have heard the chapel was completely full. They fasted in families and it was families who came to this short meeting before they broke their fast. I believe that this had a real impart on Nicks recovery as well as those who participated in the fast. Many testimonies have been strengthened because of that fast.

[Traveler]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields@Dec 7 2004, 10:10 PM

Today we live in a world that children are not taught something’s because it just isn't worth the fight to get there. My children a very different then I was when I was growing up. I think that many children have an opinion that the world revolves just for them. Unless you have recognized the blessings of fasting for yourself, it can be a completely pointless thing to do. I remember hearing my kids say, "Why do you call this fast Sunday"? "It's the slowest Sunday of the month!"

I believe that once children know why we fast they need to be taught by example. When Nick got hurt, our bishop called a special fast for the very next day on July 11. We had just had fast Sunday the week before but this time it was different, it was for another child. They fasted until after they met at 4:00 for a special meeting on Nick's progress in the chapel. Only those who participated in the fast came to the meeting and from what I have heard the chapel was completely full. They fasted in families and it was families who came to this short meeting before they broke their fast. I believe that this had a real impart on Nicks recovery as well as those who participated in the fast. Many testimonies have been strengthened because of that fast.

I like this post. Teaching fasting is not just going without food and having prayer is so wise. Having a prupose where children are aware and involved in the need for a fast is a wonderful way for them to learn. If we are not aware of such opportunities - it is time we become aware.

The Traveler

[shanstress70]

SF, I'm trying to be very sensitive about this because I don't want to offend you. I know you have been through such an ordeal with your son, and I'm glad he is doing better. I hope he continues to improve until he has a full recovery.

BUT, are you saying that you believe that God chose to let your son live because of the multitudes of people who fasted and prayed? What about the orphan girl who happens not to be LDS, who has no one to pray for her? Would he NOT let her live because no one was fasting? That doesn't seem like a very loving God to me.

For the record, I think fasting can be useful to us as far as OUR OWN spirituality, but I don't believe that God's blessing regarding someone else is based on other people fasting for them.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by shanstress70@Dec 8 2004, 06:33 AM

SF, I'm trying to be very sensitive about this because I don't want to offend you. I know you have been through such an ordeal with your son, and I'm glad he is doing better. I hope he continues to improve until he has a full recovery.

BUT, are you saying that you believe that God chose to let your son live because of the multitudes of people who fasted and prayed? What about the orphan girl who happens not to be LDS, who has no one to pray for her? Would he NOT let her live because no one was fasting? That doesn't seem like a very loving God to me.

For the record, I think fasting can be useful to us as far as OUR OWN spirituality, but I don't believe that God's blessing regarding someone else is based on other people fasting for them.

Shanstress, thank you for your sensitivity.

I know that this may be hard for you to understand not having lived through this but I have seen a miracle take place within our family. No one in the ER expected him to live and they allowed us in there while they prepared him for surgery in order for us to tell him our final goodbye. I can't explain the miracle, I can only tell the events that lead up to it. Nick received a priesthood blessing where much faith was exercised when we turned his care over to the Lord. Many, many, prayers were offered throughout this time and a ward came together in prayer and fasting.

Now I will tell you what I believe.

I believe that the Lord hears and answers our prayers. I believe in the power of the priesthood. I believe that faith can move a mountain. Many people came together in one purpose, to ask for the Lords care of my son. Nick is special and I believe that you could feel this in spending just a few minutes with him. I believe that Nick was allowed to live because of many reasons and one of those reasons is to pronounce that miracles still do exist. We live in very perilous times and it is easy to get discouraged and I believe that we all need little boosts of faith every now and then. We share this story of our miracle every chance we get and this story has touched the lives of many people. I believe that the Lord loves us all and we are all precious in his eyes.

One thing that has been made very clear to me though this experience, is that our children first belong to the Lord and he loves them just as we do.

[shanstress70]

I do not want to sound as though I have no faith. I do have faith in God. And I do believe in miracles. I just don't believe that God chooses to perform a miracle because someone belongs to a certain religion, or has more people praying and fasting for them than the next guy. And He does perform miralces on atheists, even, although they wouldn't necessarily call it a miracle.

But that's JMO. I want to say again how very glad I am that your son is doing so well, and I will pray for his continued success.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by shanstress70@Dec 8 2004, 10:03 AM

I do not want to sound as though I have no faith. I do have faith in God. And I do believe in miracles. I just don't believe that God chooses to perform a miracle because someone belongs to a certain religion, or has more people praying and fasting for them than the next guy. And He does perform miralces on atheists, even, although they wouldn't necessarily call it a miracle.

But that's JMO. I want to say again how very glad I am that your son is doing so well, and I will pray for his continued success.

Nobody is suggesting that he doesn't (wouldn't) perform miracles on anyone. It has nothing to do with religion except that the prayers of the righteous availl much. God performs miracles for one purpose. For Him to receive glory. If more people can be brought to Him because He performs a miracle, that is why He does it.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Jenda@Dec 8 2004, 11:32 AM

Nobody is suggesting that he doesn't (wouldn't) perform miracles on anyone. It has nothing to do with religion except that the prayers of the righteous availl much. God performs miracles for one purpose. For Him to receive glory. If more people can be brought to Him because He performs a miracle, that is why He does it.

Thanks Jenda.

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Jenda+Dec 8 2004, 12:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Dec 8 2004, 12:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--shanstress70@Dec 8 2004, 10:03 AM

I do not want to sound as though I have no faith.  I do have faith in God.  And I do believe in miracles.  I just don't believe that God chooses to perform a miracle because someone belongs to a certain religion, or has more people praying and fasting for them than the next guy.  And He does perform miralces on atheists, even, although they wouldn't necessarily call it a miracle.

But that's JMO.  I want to say again how very glad I am that your son is doing so well, and I will pray for his continued success.

Nobody is suggesting that he doesn't (wouldn't) perform miracles on anyone. It has nothing to do with religion except that the prayers of the righteous availl much. God performs miracles for one purpose. For Him to receive glory. If more people can be brought to Him because He performs a miracle, that is why He does it.

So he wouldn't perform the miracle on the orphan girl? I jsut think it's sad that you think that.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by shanstress70+Dec 8 2004, 12:29 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (shanstress70 @ Dec 8 2004, 12:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Jenda@Dec 8 2004, 12:32 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--shanstress70@Dec 8 2004, 10:03 AM

I do not want to sound as though I have no faith.  I do have faith in God.  And I do believe in miracles.  I just don't believe that God chooses to perform a miracle because someone belongs to a certain religion, or has more people praying and fasting for them than the next guy.  And He does perform miralces on atheists, even, although they wouldn't necessarily call it a miracle.

But that's JMO.  I want to say again how very glad I am that your son is doing so well, and I will pray for his continued success.

Nobody is suggesting that he doesn't (wouldn't) perform miracles on anyone. It has nothing to do with religion except that the prayers of the righteous availl much. God performs miracles for one purpose. For Him to receive glory. If more people can be brought to Him because He performs a miracle, that is why He does it.

So he wouldn't perform the miracle on the orphan girl? I jsut think it's sad that you think that.

Why would you say that? I just said I believe God performs miracles on everyone without religious (or any other) distinction.

[shanstress70]

Jenda,

I will say it again... This is tough, because I don't want to be insensitive to SF. Please do not take offense. I think you are awesome, and find your son's account very inspirational.

Having said that, I think that by her saying that God performed the miracle because of everyone's praying and fasting, it is saying that an orphan girl is not quite as important. No one is praying for her, in some cases. I think that God decided He wanted Nick to live, regardless of what everyone else was doing. Just like He may decide He wants the orphan girl to live, even though no one may be praying for her. However, I'm sure that made them feel closer to God spiritually... and I'm sure it did a lot of good for Nick to know that all these people were praying for him.

Just a difference of opinion, I guess.

And for the record, I know of at least one Mormon who agrees with me on this account. And many Baptists who agree with you guys. (Just pointing out that it's not an LDS vs. non-LDS thing.)

[Traveler]

My friend shanstress70: There are a couple of things that you are assuming that I am not sure are correct. One interesting concept about prayer is that many try to advise G-d and change what he is doing and has planned, thinking that by prayer they can to some degree impose their will on G-d’s. There are two things not understood in this kind of thinking and effort. The first has to do with an ancient and primitive concept of truth, reality and the things of G-d and that to be successful one must find a way to please a g-d – usually by performing an incantation or ritual (as in prayer).

Let me give an example. Because the ancient lamps did not work well an ancient lamp lighter could not make sense of what was needed to make a lamp work and what caused it to fail. Therefore before attempting to light a lamp they would perform a ritual prayer invoking the good pleasure of the g-d that oversaw lamp lighting. Then they would try to light their lamp. If it did not work they would not connect that they might not have been doing something wrong in lighting the lamp but that they did not please the g-d of the lamp. Therefore they would continue to repeat the ritual prayer or enlist others to assist them in pleasing the lamp g-d. When the lamp finely lit they thought it was the g-d of the lamp and not their efforts that caused the lamp to light. This logic is flawed and relies on ignorance. We are dealing with chance and ignorance that many use to define a miracle.

There is a second thing I wanted to address and this is the doctrine of “earnest prayer”. You might want to look up “earnest prayer in the LDS Bible dictionary. A lot of people do not quite understand what earnest means. This has the same concept as “earnest money” in a real estate contract but in this case it has to do with covenant. A covenant is similar to a contract and that is why the word “earnest prayer” can only apply to a person that is righteous and faithful to G-d by covenant. Without covenant there is no “earnest” application. Under the covenant there are three general covenant promises G-d makes to man. One promise is the protection from enemies or help time of great need. In essence the righteous are cashing in on “treasures” that have been laid up in heaven in order to assist in the “help or salvage” of others. Note the similarity between the terms “salvage” and “salvation”. Jesus indicated that to be healed and having sins forgiven is the same thing. In this sense the fasting and prayers of the “saints” avail much.

The Traveler