Hybrid Commandments?

[Wingnut]

Please. Enough about sports. Go up a few posts and see what I said about the title of this thread.

Yes, I happened to be posting the quotes about football while you posted your comment that you didn't want this thread to be about sports or TV, which are what you talked about in your original post.

Furthermore, you specifically said that the prophet hadn't said anything about football on Sunday, so I wanted to make sure that you knew that he actually had talked about it.

[prospectmom]

too much bickering , off to another thread.....

[LittleWyvern]

too much bickering , off to another thread.....

Yes, I think we need to move (back) to the meta-issue of discerning between suggestions and doctrine. When we get into specific issues such as this, I think we have a tendency to use the Prophet's words to prove moral superiority of an opinion in a contentious way (attacking somebody with words, so to speak) when there's often no right or wrong answer.

[applepansy]

No no and no.

Wing, why do i find your posts combative and contentious and condescending? I don't even like reading them. Apple and I also don't seem to see eye to eye, but at least I feel like we can be civil to each other.

Janice,

You're right. This thread isn't about sports on TV on Sunday. But that was your choice to use sports on TV to illustrate your concern about local leaders quoting prophets inaccurately. It is my understanding that this thread is about Assuming that local leaders are preaching false doctrine and adults are blindly following. Correct?

I've tried to explain the Line of Authority priniciple. Its a true principle. So when you say in this thread or others that only the Prophets or Apostles words are only suggestions, you're going to see some very strong replies. When you call words of the Prophet, Apostles and other General Authorites "suggestions", you're going to get some strong replies with quotes. . . which you've gotten. When you accuse a RS President of teaching false doctrine when several of us remember many Conference talks stating the same view, you're going to get some very strong replies.

I'm sorry but it seems the line of authority is a diffficult concept for you. We are all trying to help you understand this true principle of modern-day revelation and provide references where Prophets and Apostles have said the things you deny they've said.

I appreciate Wing's posts and the hard work she went to to look up, copy and paste here for your benefit. It shows she cares not only about this issue but about you too.

What I don't understand is how you can continue to be contentious on this matter. It seems if you don't agree with a principle or doctrine being taught in our day, then you choose to label it as a "suggestion" which implies that it doesn't need to be heeded. To me personally that's a scarey position to take. However. . . we all have our agency.

Agency is a marvelous wonderful thing! A wonderful gift from our Heavenly Father! You have the right to consider counsel from Prophets, Apostles and General Authorities as suggestions. You can ignore or misunderstand what Pres. Hinckley said (and is quoted at the beginning of this thead) about heeding the counsel of our leaders. You have your choice to do whatever you want with this information.

What you can't do is convince us you're right. On the issue of the RS President saying the Prophet had said we shouldn't watch sports on TV on the Sabbath . . . Well, Wingnut only proved that Yes, they have said quite a bit on exactly that subject. Forgive us if we cannot agree with your assumptions about hybrid commandments. We have our agency to.

As I said previously we (every member) teach each other. We have the right and obligation to correct false presumptions. You should speak up even as a YW Counselor and at least ask questions when you hear something you question. Every member of LDS.net should speak up and correct false assumptions, especially about this subject . . . this subject being obedience to our leaders (Prophets, Apostles, General Authorites and local leaders). . . and especially on the Internet.

I hope you'll understand what is really being discussed here and that many of us are not prepared to agree with disobedience based on justifications, such as, the General Authorities are just human and are making suggestions.

Peace,

applepansy

Edited February 4, 2009 by applepansy
typos

[Wingnut]

Apple, you're awesome!

[LittleWyvern]

@Apple: So you believe that it is doctrine to not watch sports on Sunday? I'm a little confused now. I thought new doctrine had to be ratified somehow... by the First Presidency, if memory serves.

Edited February 4, 2009 by LittleWyvern

[applepansy]

Apple, you're awesome!

No, I'm just opinionated and outspoken. :

[LittleWyvern]

ah ha, I knew I wasn't making things up this time.

This is from Elder Lund, of the Seventy:

When there is new doctrine or new procedures to come forth, you will get it in one of three ways:

a. A formal press conference will be called by the leaders of the Church, at which an official announcement will be made.

b. It will be announced through the Church News, the Ensign, or other official Church communications.

c. It will be announced in general conference by those in authority.

Sauce.

[applepansy]

@Apple: So you believe that it is doctrine to not watch sports on Sunday? I'm a little confused now. I thought new doctrine had to be ratified somehow... by the First Presidency, if memory serves.

LittleWyvern,

"As far as I am concerned, whether it is a commandment or counsel, that which the Lord counsels becomes a commandment to Gordon B. Hinckley. I hope it does to you."

--Teachings of Gordon B. Hinckley p. 703

I believe what Pres. Hinckley said. I believe our Prophet, Apostles and General Authorities speak with the inspriation of our Lord, which then becomes a commandment. I hope it does for you too.

Wingnut looked up and posted several quotes made in General Conference on this subject. I believe that what we hear in Conference is doctrine and we should do everything we can possibly do to be obedient to the counsel of our leaders, most especially our Prophet, Apostles and General Authorities.

You posted the following from Elder Lund:

"When there is new doctrine or new procedures to come forth, you will get it in one of three ways:

a. A formal press conference will be called by the leaders of the Church, at which an official announcement will be made.

b. It will be announced through the Church News, the Ensign, or other official Church communications.

c. It will be announced in general conference by those in authority

Good night and peace,

applepansy

[Dr T]

Granted none have come out and said.."Thou shalt not watch football on Sunday" I'm in agreement with that.

Except when it is a SD game Pammy?

[LittleWyvern]

Wingnut looked up and posted several quotes made in General Conference on this subject. I believe that what we hear in Conference is doctrine and we should do everything we can possibly do to be obedient to the counsel of our leaders, most especially our Prophet, Apostles and General Authorities.

You posted the following from Elder Lund:

"When there is new doctrine or new procedures to come forth, you will get it in one of three ways:

a. A formal press conference will be called by the leaders of the Church, at which an official announcement will be made.

b. It will be announced through the Church News, the Ensign, or other official Church communications.

c. It will be announced in general conference by those in authority

Ah, I took it to mean it had to be declared as doctrine... hm, this is tricky. I'll have to study this a little more, whether suggestions as to how to fulfill abstract concepts become the one and only way fulfill that concept, and every other way no matter how inspired is a sin.

EDIT: for example, my parents always thought that the best thing to do on the sabbath day were things as a family, together. So, I suppose we would do things more conservative LDS Church members (remember, I'm from Oregon) would consider sins on the sabbath, such as play board games together and other family activities and games. So, in your mind, is this still a sin even if it tries to follow the spirit of the law rather than the letter?

EDIT2: please don't misunderstand my motive here. I recognize my age, and I recognize my (rightful) place here, so I am participating in this discussion more to learn than to debate.

Edited February 4, 2009 by LittleWyvern

[FlaviusHambonius]

Do the names Steve Young, Danny Ainge, Dale Murphy ring a bell to anyone?

How about Johnny Miller?

If you don't know who they are, just tune in to one of the BYU broadcasting stations and you will be able to hear these stalwarts in the LDS faith give their testimonies about their faith in one of the re-broadcasts that they show so frequently--with the exception of Johnny Miller.

In fact Young, Ainge and Murphy appear together for a fireside testimonial from a few years ago.

Does anyone know how to contact these gentlemen and inform them that they have apparently been worshipping false gods all of those years.

Steve Young enjoyed playing football on the sabbath. Dale Murphy enjoyed playing Baseball on the sabbath, and Danny Ainge enjoyed playing Basketball on the sabbath and making tons of money while doing it.

Of course these three have retired. But Johnny Miller still provides commentary on many PGA tournaments---on the sabbath.

But I suppose it's not really a sin to perform for a professional sports team on the sabbath, because it's their (or was) profession--right?

Probably was even considered heroic by most LDS members because after all these guys were firm in the faith--don't you think?

But if I was gathered with my family once in a blue moon to watch a Super Bowl, well by golly I suppose all the floodgates of hell will open up and wash me out to sea.

Maybe we should worry more about comforting the downtrodden, feeding the poor, visiting the sick, uplift the brokenhearted.........and yes, on the sabbath.

If I do these things, I suspect the Lord will forgive me if I slip up and watch something on the boob-tube on the sabbath.

I'm sure he has forgiven Steve, Dale, Danny and Johnny.

[FlaviusHambonius]

Just a another quick comment.

I have notice several comments alluding to the fact that whatever the Prophet or the 12 and in some cases even Stake presidents say--- that it is accepted without question or blind faith if you will.

I'm guessing of course past and present Prophets. I personally disagree with this.

There is a process I like to call getting on my knees and asking the Father in the name of his Son and asking for the blessing of the Holy Ghost to confirm to my spirit if these things are true---and I am willing to bet the Prophet would be the first to say that I am correct in this process.

Edited February 4, 2009 by FlaviusHambonius

[Hemidakota]

So I've been thinking recently about the curious blend of commandments, suggestions, and traditions that seem to sometime result in "Hybrid Commandments" (a term I made up, I think).

Relief Society last Sunday got me thinking about it again.

I have never watched a super bowl in my life, and I think my hubby might be able to say the same thing, although I am not sure. I'm neither boasting nor confessing... it's just never been an interest for me. I was surprised nevertheless to hear the Relief Society President stand up at the end of the lesson last Sunday and bear her testimony that "the Prophet has told us to not watch football on Sunday, and as wives, we have a duty to encourage our husbands to not watch it either."

I was sitting next to a recent convert, and I could literally feel her body temperature rise. After the prayer she said, almost in tears, "What ELSE am I doing wrong that nobody has told me about yet?"

We have very clear commandments, such as:

Thou Shalt Keep The Sabbath Day Holy.

I don't think anyone disputes that.

Then, built up around that commandment we have very strong suggestions from righteous men whom the Lord has called to lead this church. Just one example: Do your shopping and other worldly activities on the first six days so you can keep Sunday spiritual; Sports and sporting events should never prevent you from keeping Sunday spiritual, etc. (I do NOT want this to become a list of Sabbath do's and don'ts.)

And in addition, I think every family has their own traditions of what life should be like on Sunday. One example: The family in which I grew up always had a very formal feast on Sunday. We laid out the best china, the crystal glasses, and the silver forks, knives and spoons. It usually included a roast, a turkey or a ham, home made rolls, a huge salad, and a desert of fruit and cheese. We almost always had guests.

I grew up firmly believing that EVERY family had such a proper feast on Sunday after church, and (although as a child I don't think I could have put this into words) I probably even thought that any family who didn't was not properly observing the Sabbath.

So, here's my thought....

I think that over time, we take the ACTUAL commandment, blend them with suggestions and traditions, and come up with hybrid commandments. Example:

Thou Shalt Not Watch Football on Sunday

I also think that we then want to project our own personal hybrids onto other people, expect them to live by them as well, and even sometimes judge them against our hybrids.

What do you think? I've talked about one example... Have you seen others? I am off base here? Do you think we all have a duty to live by every "suggestion" from the Brethren? At what point do "suggestions" become "commandments"? Is everything said from the General Conference pulpit to be taken as canonized scripture?

And mostly.... have YOU ever been told one of your cherished (and maybe even spiritual) family traditions, practices, hobbies or life styles are not in keeping with Church teachings?

I'd be curious to hear your thoughts! :)

Janice

Who said this? No football on Sunday?

[applepansy]

Guys, Read through this thread. No one posting here is advocating that anyone do anything other than what Prophets, Apostles and General Authorities have said on this subject. We all have our agency.

There are great quotes posted by Connie and Wingnut to illustrate and show that yes indeed there are commandments.

Please read the entire thread. This is not about watching sports on TV on the Sabbath.

applepansy

[applepansy]

Ah, I took it to mean it had to be declared as doctrine... hm, this is tricky. I'll have to study this a little more, whether suggestions as to how to fulfill abstract concepts become the one and only way fulfill that concept, and every other way no matter how inspired is a sin.

EDIT: for example, my parents always thought that the best thing to do on the sabbath day were things as a family, together. So, I suppose we would do things more conservative LDS Church members (remember, I'm from Oregon) would consider sins on the sabbath, such as play board games together and other family activities and games. So, in your mind, is this still a sin even if it tries to follow the spirit of the law rather than the letter?

EDIT2: please don't misunderstand my motive here. I recognize my age, and I recognize my (rightful) place here, so I am participating in this discussion more to learn than to debate.

LittleWyvern,

It becomes as easy as Connie's scripture quotes. I've copied and pasted them there but you can see them in her post also at http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/17804-hybrid-commandments-6.html

D&C 1:38

What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

D&C 68:4

And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation.

First lines Hymn #21 and #22

"Come, listen to a prophets voice, And hear the word of God,"

"We listen to a prophet's voice and hear the Savior too."

If you go further back and look for Wingnut and Elphaba's posts you'll see quotes from the Ensign and Conference about Keeping the Sabbath Day Holy.

This thread is about obedience. How each of us choose to apply obedience is personal. As I said previously, we all have our God-given agency. . .we get to choose. Also, no one is perfect, so its best not to judge.

I've said all I'm going to on this subject, on this thread. We're just repeating ourselves at least I feel I am.

I hope you all enjoy your day,

applepansy

[gabelpa]

I've only posted to this thread once, and don't feel like repeating myself, so I'll take a page out of someone else's book

Free Agency! Free Agency! Free Agency! Free Agency!

(Kudos to the computer people if you know who I'm imitating)

[Connie]

"One of the sneaky ploys of the adversary is to have us believe that unquestioning obedience to the principles and commandments of God is blind obedience. His goal is to have us believe that we should be following our own worldly ways and selfish ambitions. This he does by persuading us that “blindly” following the prophets and obeying the commandments is not thinking for ourselves. He teaches that it is not intelligent to do something just because we are told to do so by a living prophet or by prophets who speak to us from the scriptures.

Our unquestioning obedience to the Lord’s commandments is not blind obedience. President Boyd K. Packer in the April conference of 1983 taught us about this: “Latter-day Saints are not obedient because they are compelled to be obedient. They are obedient because they know certain spiritual truths and have decided, as an expression of their own individual agency, to obey the commandments of God. … We are not obedient because we are blind, we are obedient because we can see” (“Agency and Control,” Ensign, May 1983, 66).

We might call this “faith obedience.” With faith, Abraham was obedient in preparing Isaac for sacrifice; with faith, Nephi was obedient in obtaining the brass plates; with faith, a little child obediently jumps from a height into the strong arms of his father. “Faith obedience” is a matter of trust. The question is simple: Do we trust our Heavenly Father? Do we trust our prophets?"

-R. Conrad Schultz, “Faith Obedience,” Ensign, May 2002, 29

"Obedience is a fundamental law of the gospel. It is not only the demonstration of our faith but also the foundation of our faith. But the philosophical standard of the world holds that unquestioning obedience equals blind obedience, and blind obedience is mindless obedience. This is simply not true. Unquestioning obedience to the Lord indicates that a person has developed faith and trust in Him to the point where he or she considers all inspired instruction—whether it be recorded scripture, the words of modern prophets, or direct inspiration through the Holy Ghost—to be worthy of obedience.

The standard of the world is “I will move on a course only when its truth has been proven to me.” This standard contradicts the admonition to believe all things. Unfortunately, we are too often content to live with our reservations, assuming that believing most things is good enough.

At some point in our quest for perfection and eternal life, we may come to have perfect faith and eventually perfect knowledge. But between now and then, there will certainly arise intriguing questions with answers reaching beyond our capacity to comprehend. Such questions can drive the prideful person to conclusions such as “Given the constraints of Christian doctrine, there is no possible answer to this question; therefore, a thinking person cannot be a Christian.” Such pride and arrogance must greatly offend the heavens."

-Robert C. Oaks, “Believe All Things,” Ensign, Jul 2005, 30–33

"Members who have a testimony and who act upon it under the direction of their Church leaders are sometimes accused of blind obedience.

Of course, we have leaders, and of course, we are subject to their decisions and directions in the operation of the Church and in the performance of needed priesthood ordinances. But when it comes to learning and knowing the truth of the gospel—our personal testimonies—we each have a direct relationship with God, our Eternal Father, and His Son, Jesus Christ, through the powerful witness of the Holy Ghost. This is what our critics fail to understand. It puzzles them that we can be united in following our leaders and yet independent in knowing for ourselves.

Perhaps the puzzle some feel can be explained by the reality that each of us has two different channels to God. We have a channel of governance through our prophet and other leaders. This channel, which has to do with doctrine, ordinances, and commandments, results in obedience. We also have a channel of personal testimony, which is direct to God. This has to do with His existence, our relationship to Him, and the truth of His restored gospel. This channel results in knowledge. These two channels are mutually reinforcing: knowledge encourages obedience (see Deuteronomy 5:27; Moses 5:11), and obedience enhances knowledge (see John 7:17; D&C 93:1).

We all act upon or give obedience to knowledge. Whether in science or religion, our obedience is not blind when we act upon knowledge suited to the subject of our action. A scientist receives and acts upon a trusted certification of the content or conditions of a particular experiment. In matters of religion, a believer’s source of knowledge is spiritual, but the principle is the same. In the case of Latter-day Saints, when the Holy Ghost gives our souls a witness of the truth of the restored gospel and the calling of a modern prophet, our choice to follow those teachings is not blind obedience."

-Dallin H. Oaks, “Testimony,” Ensign, May 2008, 26–29

Confirmation = "information that confirms or verifies,▸ noun: making something valid by formally ratifying or confirming it"

Yes, we are to seek for "confirmation" not "contradiction."

[Connie]

Found this talk, it's a good one.

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Obedience—Full Obedience

[Connie]

Okay i found this in the D&C institute student manual. It may just be me, but i feel it is relevant. It refers to the story in 1 Chronicles 13:7-10 about the man who tried to steady the ark.

"In modern revelation the Lord referred to this incident to teach the principle that the Lord does not need the help of men to defend his kingdom (see D&C 85:8). Yet even today there are those who fear the ark is tottering and presume to steady its course. There are those who are sure that women are not being treated fairly in the Church, those who would extend some unauthorized blessing, or those who would change the established doctrines of the Church. These are ark-steadiers. The best intentions do not justify such interference with the Lord's plan. Both President David O. McKay and President John Taylor applied this lesson to modern Saints.

"It is a little dangerous for us to go out of our own sphere and try unauthoritatively to direct the efforts of a brother. You remember the case of Uzziah who stretched forth his hand to steady the ark. (See 1 Chron. 13:7-10.) He seemed justified, when the oxen stumbled, in putting forth his hand to steady that symbol of the covenant. We today think his punishment was very severe. Be that as it may, the incident conveys a lesson of life. Let us look around us and see how quickly men who attempt unauthoritatively to steady the ark die spiritually. Their souls become embittered, their minds distorted, their judgments faulty, and their spirits depressed. Such is the pitiable condition of men who, neglecting their own responsibilities, spend their time in finding fault with others." (McKay, Gospel Ideals, p. 258.)

"We have more or less of the principles of insubordination among us. But there is a principle associated with the kingdom of God that recognizes God in all things, and that recognizes the priesthood in all things, and those who do not do it had better repent or they will come to a stand very quickly; I tell you that in the name of the Lord. Do not think you are wise and that you can manage and manipulate the priesthood, for you cannot do it. God must manage, regulate, dictate, and stand at the head, and every man in his place. The ark of God does not need steadying, especially by incompetent men without revelation and without knowledge of the kingdom of God and its laws. It is a great work that we are engaged in, and it is for us to prepare ourselves for the labor before us, and to acknowledge God, his authority, his law and his priesthood in all things." (Taylor, Gospel Kingdom, p. 166.)

Wow! Let us all refrain from ark-steadying!

[lusciouschaos]

It is so easy to advocate not doing something when we have no interest in doing it in the first place. Easy for me to give up football on Sunday since I don't care to watch football the other six days either. But just try to tell me the Sunday nap is not recommended and watch out.

Again, with regards to Sunday, the Lord is asking us to find ways to "sup" with him and renew our spirits.

[Guest ceeboo]

Who said this? No football on Sunday?

I think the Detroit Lions said that.:)

Or maybe that's just a wish on my part.:)

Peace,

Ceeeboooo

[applepansy]

I think the Detroit Lions said that.:)

Or maybe that's just a wish on my part.:)

Peace,

Ceeeboooo

You always make me smile Ceeboo. thank you!

applepansy

[Guest ceeboo]

You always make me smile Ceeboo. thank you!

applepansy

My pleasure apples,:) ( It is my hunble opinion that alot more of that is needed in todays world !!)

And I thank you for the FABULOUS peaches you sent to my family.:) ( DELICIOUS!!!)

[Wingnut]

Do the names Steve Young, Danny Ainge, Dale Murphy ring a bell to anyone?

How about Johnny Miller?

If you don't know who they are, just tune in to one of the BYU broadcasting stations and you will be able to hear these stalwarts in the LDS faith give their testimonies about their faith in one of the re-broadcasts that they show so frequently--with the exception of Johnny Miller.

In fact Young, Ainge and Murphy appear together for a fireside testimonial from a few years ago.

Does anyone know how to contact these gentlemen and inform them that they have apparently been worshipping false gods all of those years.

Steve Young enjoyed playing football on the sabbath. Dale Murphy enjoyed playing Baseball on the sabbath, and Danny Ainge enjoyed playing Basketball on the sabbath and making tons of money while doing it.

Of course these three have retired. But Johnny Miller still provides commentary on many PGA tournaments---on the sabbath.

But I suppose it's not really a sin to perform for a professional sports team on the sabbath, because it's their (or was) profession--right?

Probably was even considered heroic by most LDS members because after all these guys were firm in the faith--don't you think?

But if I was gathered with my family once in a blue moon to watch a Super Bowl, well by golly I suppose all the floodgates of hell will open up and wash me out to sea.

Maybe we should worry more about comforting the downtrodden, feeding the poor, visiting the sick, uplift the brokenhearted.........and yes, on the sabbath.

If I do these things, I suspect the Lord will forgive me if I slip up and watch something on the boob-tube on the sabbath.

I'm sure he has forgiven Steve, Dale, Danny and Johnny.

That's all well and good for them. I don't think any of us are unaware of these men and the personal choices they have made. However, not one of them is a prophet or other General Authority. I prefer to follow the instruction and teaching of those whom God has chosen to lead His church.