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Posted

Possibly. The stone that figures in the BoM translation was found thirty feet underground, while Joseph was digging a well. I think it's fairly safe to assume that he was the first person to use it. :P

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Posted

Joseph's seer stone was consecrated, but (as far as I know) not until 1888 by Wilford Woodruff at the Manti Temple dedication.

Here's an article about Joseph's use of a seer stone and the translation process, from Dialogue. Evidently, he owned at least three throughout his lifetime.

I have used this material due to the detail contents within....;)

Posted

Maybe REconsecrated? If they're supposed to be consecrated before they can be used, such as healing oil is, then it stands to reason that it was consecrated before by those who have used it before Joseph.

For example, I have a bottle of consecrated oil. I've had it for eight and a half years. Theoritically that bottle of consecrated oil could be handed down from generation to generation, and the original consecration would still be good, but it could be that somewhere down the line someone would feel the need to reconsecrate it. It doesn't mean it was never consecrated before, just that it was consecrated again.

Correct statement.

Posted

Okay. . . I haven't heard of that one. What's your source?

See the article I linked to above. And note that the "seer stone" and the "Urim and Thummim" are two different things.

Posted

My understanding is that Joseph Smith was led by God (or the Holy Ghost) to find gold plates that contained writing in Reformed Egyptian. He did not know the language, but the Holy Spirit inspired him to write a translation (interpretation?) of the plates. The result of this work was the BoM. The English version is considered the inspired word of God.

If I have this right, is there any instruction or explanation for the unprecedanted act of God in inspiring someone to, purely by inspiration, translate a work transcribed in a dead and lost language? God can, of course, do anything. But this would surely qualify as one of God's more unusual miracles.

A related inquiry: The Bible is said to not contain certain lost and precious truths. Are those truths contained in the BoM? Do we have them all now, or is God revealing them gradually?

There is much more to the creation of scripture than what is being discussed. The first concept I would point out is the divine structure of all things associated with revelation within G-d’s kingdom are governed by the laws and principles of that kingdom.

Principle #1. All scripture is given through a prophet (See Amos 3:7). A prophet is a covenant citizen of the Kingdom of G-d. But more than a citizen a prophet has a greater call and covenant. That covenant governs their example to G-d’s children as well as the guidance given (according to covenant) to the people of covenant. The important notion here is covenant which is established with the prophet and with the people. The prophet is only allowed to testify that which they are commanded to testify and through the medium they are commanded to use. Note that Jesus was a prophet commanded to testify according to the commandments given him by his Father.

Principle #2. Within the kingdom some scripture is given through a “Seer”. A seer is a prophet also but has a greater covenant. Sometimes the commandment given to a seer is to write to future generations that may include another language. Part of the covenant of a seer is a covenant and commandment associated with a seer stone that they must possess as part of the covenant of seer. A seer stone assist a seer in creating scriptures via two methods. First; through the use of the seer stone the seer is able to see the future generations and what G-d would have the seer know of those generations that they will read from what the seer writes. The second use is that the seer stone “shows” the seer what they must write.

I want to take time here to indicate that is has been a long tradition of the ancient Hebrews that only someone directed by G-d is able to write scripture that must be written according to literary forms. Part of method of G-d is revealed by Joseph talking to Pharaoh in Genesis 41:32. This concept that G-d directs what is to be written for future generations is rooted deep in many ancient myths and legends. In Ancient Egypt it was believe that the hieroglyphs were a gift from G-d and should only be used according to divine direction. In fact the term hieroglyph comes from the Greek and means “sacred carving”.

The concept of divine script is prevalent across many cultures. It is interesting that the ancient northern European script called “runes” that had both magical and religious properties from the g-ds and have an interesting link to “a stone”.

Principle #3. A seer and the covenant of a seer is again required to translate or read sacred scripture in order to prepare such things to be read by the covenant peoples in the kingdom of G-d. According to the covenant to be a citizen of G-d’s kingdom all are given the Gift of the Holy Ghost and by the Holy Spirit all things are understood. But a higher covenant is given to Apostles, Prophets and Seers. This is outlined in Doctrine and Covenants section 84.

A question was asked concerning “interpreters” such as the Urim and Thummim and their place in scripture. The covenant use of interpreters is a covenant that was lost for some time and many religious scholars do not understand the significance of such holy gifts. All they have (even according to prophesy) is a remnant of knowledge of such things. Because of this, their scripture cannon are that prophetic remnant that will be added to in the last days in what is known as the “fullness of the Gentiles”. The point of LDS doctrine is that many have revelation and prophesies according to the Holy Ghost but these are not of the veracity of scripture for they lack the Whole or Holy oneness according to the whole and complete covenant that must come with the kingdom of G-d. (See Matt 6:9-10)

When Jesus come to establish the kingdom of G-d upon the earth in the similar manner in which it is established in heaven – the citizens will all be given their own interpreter as prophesied in Revelation 2:17. Therefore we are to understand that all citizens of G-d’s Kingdom at that time will abide by the covenants of a seer.

The Traveler

Posted (edited)

Oh, I know there are differences, and it may well be that one is a true gift and another is a corruption or distortion, or, perhaps an imperfect expression. Nevertheless, the parallels are interesting.

They are different.

The gift of tongues, which we believe in also, has a specific purpose. I site the instance in early Acts where the Apostles are teaching to a multitude from many different countries, and that speak many different languages, yet they all understood as if in their own language. That is the pure form of the gift of tongues. It has nothing to do with the written word, but the spoken word.

The seer stone and Urim and Thummim allow the "seer" or prophet to see all things past, present, and future. Joseph did not use interpretation of tongues to translate the Nephite records. The words were shown to him in the language he understood (English) as if the original writer was writing them in his language.

Edited by Justice
Posted

See the article I linked to above. And note that the "seer stone" and the "Urim and Thummim" are two different things.

Your article is more like a mini book. It'll take me a while to get to the part where it talks about where Joseph supposedly found that seer stone in the ground. It'd be nice if you could just quote that part or something.

Posted (edited)

However, as I understand it, the U&T was not returned to Joseph Smith following the loss of the 116 pages. Accounts we have of the translation after that time from David Whitmer and Emma Smith always refer to the seer stone, never the U&T.

This is the argument I hear. But goes against everything we KNOW.

First David Whitmer never helped translate. This is where the accounts of the “Seer stone” come into play. But we have no record of David Whitmer ever being present when translation happened. Oliver Cowdery did. (For the rest of the book of mormon). Oliver Cowdery always refers to the translation taking place with the U&T. (I have an account of Oliver stating this in 1848 after the saints are heading to utah). I have never seen an account by Joseph Smith or Oliver Cowdery that ever speak of using the seer stone to translate! They would be source, not David Whitmer.

Second is we have more then enough Revelations in the D&C that were all given through the U&T. Even after the 116 pages are lost, Moroni has to give Joseph Smith the U&T back so God can communicate with him and tell him why he shouldn’t retranslate. It wasn’t until Moroni takes the plates for good is the U&T returned to Moroni. So we know the U&T was around for getting Revelations the whole time the translation process happen.

Emma did help in translation. But I feel if the seer stone was used it was more for some type of personal revelation (for the family or for Joseph Smith). This I feel is what Emma could have confused into being the “translation” process.

Or, and this could be a stretch, is the Seer stone helped keep an eye on the Plates. We learn from Joseph Smith’s mother the power of the U & T

Joseph kept the Urim and Thummim constantly about his person, by the use of which he could in a moment tell whether the plates were in any danger. Just before Emma rode up to Mr. Wells', Joseph, from an impression that he had had, came up out of the well in which he was laboring and met her not far from the house. Emma immediately informed him of what had transpired, whereupon he looked in the Urim and Thummim and saw that the Record was as yet safe.

(Lucy Mack Smith, History of Joseph Smith by His Mother [salt Lake City: Stevens & Wallis, Inc., 1945], 107.)

This is why I believe the seer stone was easier to carry but could have helped Joseph Smith in some ways. But this is all just my own ideas.

Edited by tubaloth
Posted

A quick question on the Urim and Thummim and Seer Stone--if I had them, and I came upon those plates, would I be able to interpet them--or was it the items in conjunction with inspiration from the Holy Spirit? Actually, it becomes a rather important distinction. Why? My sense is that there is a similarity between the purpose in Joseph's translating what he found and the pentecostal experience of tongues and interpretation. To explain:

The gift of tongues allows the speaker to offer a message from God to a congregation. However, this message is delivered in a language not understood ("Reformed Egyptian").

The gift of interpretation allows the speaker to interpret the tongues in the venacular of the people, so all may be edified by it.

BUT...

The gift of prophecy allows the speaker to offer the message from God in the venacular WITHOUT a gift of tongues being expressed.

So, why bother with the tongues? Why doesn't God just always bestow the gift of prophecy? Why have Joseph translate rather than just receive?

Oh, I know there are differences, and it may well be that one is a true gift and another is a corruption or distortion, or, perhaps an imperfect expression. Nevertheless, the parallels are interesting.

BTW, by way of disclosure, Tom, I've started but not finished the BoM. Those who know me are tsk tsking, because I started some time ago. :soon:

Very good questions. The translation process was used by God to prepare the prophet Joseph. It allowed him, in his early twenties when he translated, to learn how to focus his mind and receive revelations that did not necessarily always require a First Vision-like experience.

It also allowed Joseph to learn the key and basic doctrines God wished to impart, prior to sending the book out to the world. As he translated, and Oliver Cowdery scribed, they had many questions answered. Other questions that were brought up, could then be discussed, prayed about, and the answer received by revelation. This is how the priesthood was restored, when they prayed about baptism.

This process trained the early Prophet. Later translations (Bible, Book of Abraham, etc) and other questions led to new revelations. When Joseph was told to build a temple in Kirtland Ohio, so that the members could experience God more fully, he was convinced that their Pentecostal experience during the dedication was a completion of his work. It amazed and astonished Joseph a week later, when Christ, Moses, Elias, and Elijah appeared to him and told him he had an even greater work to do (see D&C 109, 110). Step by step, God prepared Joseph to be able to receive the fullness of the keys, revelations, and responsibilities, and give them to the saints.

The gift of tongues is a blessed gift. And Joseph's ability to translate was directly tied to this gift. He started by using the Urim and Thummim, but later revelations were often received without it, as his mind was more focused on hearing God's word.

In D&C 130, we find an interesting concept on the Urim and Thummim. In the last days, this earth will be glorified and become Urim and Thummim-like. Those who peer into it will be able to view all of the truths and histories held within it.

Each of those who become celestial beings will also each receive a small white stone, which will teach them the higher order of things in God's kingdom. This stone will be their personal Urim and Thummim. It will only work for the individual, and is worked with the new name, which is a password. IOW, Joseph Smith described the first computer with Internet access (compare with Rev 2:17). The Book of Mormon notes that the U&T should not be used by evil people, as they would look for things they ought not (such as kids do on MySpace, I suppose).

But it requires focus to use properly. Oliver Cowdery was given permission and the gift of translation for a time. But he failed. In D&C 8 and 9, the Lord explains to Oliver that he could not translate, because he thought he only had to ask and the Lord would give the answer to him. Rather, he had to study it out in his mind, seek out the answer deeply, and then ask the Lord if it was correct.

Posted

But goes against everything we KNOW.

Well, it goes against what we've been told, yes. (Note: I'm not alleging a sinister cover-up here, just sloppy over-simplified history.)

First David Whitmer never helped translate.

Yes, he did. When the Smiths moved from the Hale home to the Whitmer farm, David served as scribe in the translation process for a time. See the article I cite above.

Second is we have more then enough Revelations in the D&C that were all given through the U&T.

As per Joseph's account in the History of the Church, yes. My understanding, though, is that he was not always careful to separate out the U&T he received with the plates from the seer stone he found in the Chase well. Moreover, the History of the Church was itself largely ghost-written by scribes (I'm not sure if this particular part of it was, but for me that's currently enough to leave an open question).

Or, and this could be a stretch, is the Seer stone helped keep an eye on the Plates.

I like that. I really like that.

Posted

Seer stones ARE Urim and Thummims. If you look up seer stones in the Topical Guide it tells you to see Urim and Thummim in the Topical Guide and in the Bible Dictionary.

A Urim and Thummim, meaning Lights and Prefections in Hebrew, is a seer stone, of which there are many. So, if there is a seer stone that came from the Chase well, then it is a Urim and Thummim. They are the same thing with different names.

I take issue with your source Just_A_Guy. This alternate spelling of Gazelam that is allegedly in the Doctine and Covenants is not to be seen. The scriptures referenced are a list of servants, including Joseph Smith, which could be appropriate in that Gazelem is a servant of God. However, that could simply be another title, and thus anyone could be Gazelem, of which, the name Gazelem is only referenced in Alma 37:23.

Also, using quotes by people who fell away from the church after they fell away does not work so well in my book. People who are excommunicated are prone to misremembering things, especially if they have hard feelings against the Church. They'll change things or word things so that the most negative possible spin is put on the Church, even unto falsehoods. I know this because of things I have read by excommunicated members and because of some experiences I've had with excommunicated members.

Notwithstanding, even your own article eventually states that Urim and Thummims and seer stones are the same thing (see end paragraph of page 61 and end paragraph of 63).

I am sure that configuring seer stones in a specific manner, such is in a bow or a breast plate or like a pair of glasses are done so as to obtain a specific result. Mayhaps the stones in the bow (and I'm imagining a bow and arrow type bow) were done because it was easier to carry during ancient times or it could be it better helped the seer, or prophet, obtain good food. I don't know. Whatever the case may be it is clear that a seer stone and a Urim and Thummim are the same thing.

There is a fabulous article on revelation but is called the Dual Aspects of Prayer.

Here is an excerpt.

"It is clear, then, that Satan and his followers, who have been cast out of God’s presence and are dead to His Spirit, are excluded from those who, by the spirit of prophecy and revelation, may know the thoughts and the intents of our hearts. So, in his wisdom and mercy, God has provided a channel of communication between him and his children on earth that Satan, our common enemy, cannot invade. This is the channel of secret prayer. The significance of this to the Latter-day Saint is profound, for by this means we are able to communicate with our Heavenly Father in secrecy, confident that the adversary cannot intrude.

". . . .

"David Whitmer reported that the Prophet Joseph Smith taught that “some revelations are of God: some revelations are of man: and some revelations are of the devil.” (In B. H. Roberts, Comprehensive History of the Church, 1:163.) But while Satan can convey thoughts, he does not know whether these thoughts have taken root unless they are reflected either in words or in actions.

"All this suggests that we should be wise in what we say and do. We should also be wise in the way we guard precious things that are revealed to us through the Spirit. For example, when President Heber J. Grant was a young man, presiding in the Tooele Stake, Patriarch John Rowberry gave him a special blessing. Afterward, the patriarch said to President Grant, “I saw something that I dared not mention.” President Grant later recorded it was made known to him at that moment that he would one day be the President of the Church. He never discussed this revelation with anyone, never recorded it, and revealed it only after it was an accomplished fact. (See Francis M. Gibbons, Heber J. Grant: Man of Steel, Prophet of God, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1979, p. viii.) How wise he was, for had he revealed it to others, his enemy, Satan, would have known and, with that knowledge, could have created unimaginable difficulties for him.

"Often, we talk too much. We say things that need not be said or should not be said; for in saying them, we may open a crevice which enables Lucifer to wedge his way into our lives. We learn from 2 Nephi that Satan “seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.” (2 Ne. 2:27.) Satan and his followers are persistent in their quest to drag us down to their level. They will use any device or artifice to accomplish their end. If they know, for example, of revelations such as the one given to President Grant, or if they see from our words or actions evidence of animosity or hatred or discord among us, they may capitalize on them in ways which will be detrimental to us. Wisdom suggests, therefore, that we suppress words and actions which might enable Satan to harm us or whose tendency might be to create discord or enmity."

Here is the link to the entire article: LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Dual Aspects of Prayer

Sorry, PC, I know this veers from your original question, but I felt this issue needed to be addressed.

Posted

Excellent posts, with many interesting and thoughtful insights. It's time for me to prayefully complete the BoM, and perhaps the D&C. Please know that when I speak of what Joseph said he did (translate by inspiration) as being unusual, I am well aware that God is not afraid of confounding the wise. Your responses were the sort of thinking I hoped for. Thank you.

Posted

The original Urim and Thummim in Joseph's possession was the U&T passed down from the Jaredites and Mahonri Moriancumer. It was found by the Nephites, along with the writings of Ether, and Moroni sealed them up with the plates of Mormon. They were two stones set in a large bow, like large glasses. Joseph found it to be too large for him, and cumbersome, and so began using his seer's stone for much of the translation of the BoM. He would put the stone in his hat, and peer into the darkness, and it would reveal to him what he needed to know.

The stone is still in Church possession, while the U&T was returned to Moroni when the plates were finally returned.

Posted

My understanding is that Joseph Smith was led by God (or the Holy Ghost) to find gold plates that contained writing in Reformed Egyptian. He did not know the language, but the Holy Spirit inspired him to write a translation (interpretation?) of the plates. The result of this work was the BoM.

That's a surprisingly accurate 2 sentence summary.

The English version is considered the inspired word of God.

And other language versions not? I doubt it.

If I have this right, is there any instruction or explanation for the unprecedanted act of God in inspiring someone to, purely by inspiration, translate a work transcribed in a dead and lost language? God can, of course, do anything. But this would surely qualify as one of God's more unusual miracles.

I don't think so. The "translation" wasn't a translation in a traditional sense. Most accounts do not place JS pouring over the plates translating ancient characters on the plates into modern English. Typically the plates were covered, not visible, or not even in the room. In that sense JS was receiving revelation about the events of long ago.

The writers of Gospels were not witnesses to the events they describe. While they had access to oral stories and maybe Quelle, we assume that they were somehow inspired to get Christ's story and words correctly.

The author of Genesis describes events from thousands of years earlier. We trust that he was inspired to do so.

A related inquiry: The Bible is said to not contain certain lost and precious truths. Are those truths contained in the BoM? Do we have them all now, or is God revealing them gradually?

Revelation of truth continues.

Posted

And other language versions not? I doubt it.

This may seem like a minor point, but perhaps it is essential? The Articles of Faith makes a point of saying the Bible is inspired as far as it is translated correctly. So, if Joseph Smith was inspired to translate the BoM, then the inspired version would be the one he wrote. Any translations would only be inspired "as far as they are translated correctly."

This same issue separates most Bible translatiosn (KJV, NIV, etc.) from paraphrases (Living Bible). In fact, the New Living Translation was commissioned, at least in part, in response to this criticism.

I don't think so. The "translation" wasn't a translation in a traditional sense. Most accounts do not place JS pouring over the plates translating ancient characters on the plates into modern English. Typically the plates were covered, not visible, or not even in the room. In that sense JS was receiving revelation about the events of long ago.

The writers of Gospels were not witnesses to the events they describe. While they had access to oral stories and maybe Quelle, we assume that they were somehow inspired to get Christ's story and words correctly.

The author of Genesis describes events from thousands of years earlier. We trust that he was inspired to do so.

Revelation of truth continues.

From your description, the gold plates seem almost irrelevent to Joseph Smith's work. He says that they contained the original writings that he produced in English, and yet, he could have written the stories much as Moses did, without having those plates at all.

Posted

The gift of tongues allows the speaker to offer a message from God to a congregation. However, this message is delivered in a language not understood ("Reformed Egyptian").

The gift of interpretation allows the speaker to interpret the tongues in the venacular of the people, so all may be edified by it.

BUT...

The gift of prophecy allows the speaker to offer the message from God in the venacular WITHOUT a gift of tongues being expressed.

So, why bother with the tongues? Why doesn't God just always bestow the gift of prophecy? Why have Joseph translate rather than just receive?

You bring up an interesting point- one that Terryl Givens deals with (though through corollaries) in his book, 'By the Hand of Mormon' (which I love... big Givens fan, here). What I relate here I learned from Givens' book.

As has been stated earlier, the religious milieu of Smith's day was steeped in spiritualism (as was noted, many Protestants attempted to divine inspired information through stones and other spiritualistic means). The actual physical reality of the Golden Plates gave an unusual effect and credence to Smith's claims of divine interpreter. In fact, many early missionaries of the Church focused on the method of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon and its significance (that God had commenced His work in the last days) as opposed to the doctrine contained therein- and the message often resonated with the people of the day, whether they lived inside or outside the United States.

Also, much hinged on the testimony of the Three and Eight Witnesses. How could they have seen the plates and held them if the plates had not been given to Joseph Smith?

Finally, I believe the gift of translating and the gift of tongues is less exhausting and 'easier' than the gift of prophecy, as relating to the Book of Mormon's translation. In other words, it would have been more trying on Joseph Smith's soul and body if he had to write the Book or Mormon solely by prophetic revelation. I believe the translating of the Book of Mormon, with its accompanying tolls and expectations, prepared Joseph Smith for the many doctrinal revelations he would receive later.

Posted

This may seem like a minor point, but perhaps it is essential? The Articles of Faith makes a point of saying the Bible is inspired as far as it is translated correctly. So, if Joseph Smith was inspired to translate the BoM, then the inspired version would be the one he wrote. Any translations would only be inspired "as far as they are translated correctly."

Even the Book of Mormon in English is only correct insofar as it was translated correctly. Joseph Smith himself didn't feel he got everything perfectly right the first time and continued to tinker with it after the initial translation as the Spirit helped him come to an improved understanding.

For that matter I am not even aware of any reason why one must consider the ancient records themselves - for example the Golden Plates - to be perfectly correct. Having been written and compiled by man I assume that they to contain errors or difficulties as does the Bible.

From your description, the gold plates seem almost irrelevent to Joseph Smith's work. He says that they contained the original writings that he produced in English, and yet, he could have written the stories much as Moses did, without having those plates at all.

I didn't imply they were irrelevant. Though God could have conveyed the ancient records any way He chose, they seemed to play a major role in substantiating Joseph Smith's faith and in galvanizing early converts to the movement.

Early on it seems JS relied on material objects to tap into the Spirit's inspiration - the Urim and Thummim or the Seer Stone. Later on it seems he worked without such "facilitators."

And yes, he did in fact later write what we consider to be inspired accounts without physical objects like the plates - The Book of Moses or various other revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants.

Posted (edited)

PrisonChaplain,

Joseph Smith translated by Revelation not by inspiration.

If I am wrong, I am sure I will get corrected, but I am certain in my own mind. Revelation not inspiration.

Edited: Oops, I am wrong:

The Prophet Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon by divine inspiration from gold plates that he received from the angel Moroni. Books in the Book of Mormon are named after the prophets who kept the records, such as Nephi, Mosiah, Alma, and Mormon. A reference from the Book of Mormon may look like this: Alma 37:35-37.

I got the above quote from: Mormon.org - The Book of Mormon click on: Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ Edited by Iggy
Posted

PrisonChaplain,

Joseph Smith translated by Revelation not by inspiration.

If I am wrong, I am sure I will get corrected, but I am certain in my own mind. Revelation not inspiration.

Edited: Oops, I am wrong:

I got the above quote from: Mormon.org - The Book of Mormon click on: Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ

Inspiration: 1 a: a divine influence or action on a person believed to qualify him or her to receive and communicate sacred revelation (Merriam Webster)

Same thing or they work together to achieve the same thing.

Posted (edited)

From your description, the gold plates seem almost irrelevent to Joseph Smith's work. He says that they contained the original writings that he produced in English, and yet, he could have written the stories much as Moses did, without having those plates at all.

This isn't addressing the point directly, but if you give it some thought, I think you'll see my comment here are related, and when applied to this line of thinking shows the pattern the Lord always uses when He requires anything of man.

If you think of stories in the Bible where the Lord gives commandments directly to men you will see that He frequently, if not always, requires something on the part of that man.

How easy would it have been for the Lord to strike Goliath down in an awesome display of firepower from heaven and convince all around that it was God who slew him?

How easy would it have been for the Lord to free the children of Israel from Egypt without Moses asking the Pharoah to free his people and use the staff to perform the Lord's wonders?

How easy would it have been for the Lord to provide Noah with an ark already completed, already loaded with all the necessary animals aboard?

On and on and on...

Would it have been easy to hand Jospeh Smith a perfect, completed manuscript of the Book of Mormon? Certainly. In fact, He could have given the inspiration to Mormon and Moroni to write the abridgement in English so Joseph Smith would not have had to translate it at all.

To me, the fact He required Joseph Smith to exercise faith and help in bringing the Lord's purposes about is very strong evidence that He was telling the truth.

Had he claimed the Lord handed him the completed manuscript, his story wouldn't have been near as believable. The Lord rarely, if ever, works that way. Lies tend to be simple and believable. The things of the Lord require faith and effort on man's part, and usually come through trial, testing and great faith, while enduring persecution.

It may not have been through a burning bush, a bolt of lightning from the sky, a great flood, or by any means we are familiar with the Lord using in the past, but the pattern is certainly there.

Edited by Justice
Posted

Yes, one must be inspired by the Holy Ghost in order to reveal the things of God. They are not synonyms, but you cannot have one without the other.

Inspiration can be related to the source of the work, while revelation is the actual delivering of the message. You can be inspired without saying or writing a word, but to reveal you must communicate the message that you were inspired with.

Posted

You know...I was thinking about the miracles of God for a minute and it occurred to me that the changing of water to wine happened only once. Miracles must be expedient for the moment and must have a purpose. It was expedient that the record of the Nephites was written in the language it was written it. Expedient that it was hidden for some time. Expedient that it came forth when and how it did and expedient for God to teach and train his leaders in the very process of bringing it to the world. There was a need for the earth to have further light and knowledge concerning all of these details of the truth....and thus the Mormon case to the restoration of the gospel.

There is so much of the LDS story that appears original or as if it doesn't have a scriptural precedent. But everything Joseph experienced had happened to other documented prophets before him. I suppose that is because things like interpretations and seers and baptism for the dead and other things really aren't common knowledge to most of Christianity. I think at first brush, this all would seem hard to swallow for me too, if I hadn't been exposed to it as I have.

Posted

Josep's method of "translation" has a pattern in all the translating he did. Whether it was the BoM plates, the Bible translation, or the translation of the Book of Abraham papyri, it all comes down to writing that was a catalyst for revelation.

Joseph didn't always have the plates open when "translating", but often just peered into the U&T or seer's stone.

For the Bible "translation", he primarily used the KJV to ponder what he read, until the Lord revealed to him what was to be written. He received new revelation on the Creation, Adam and Eve, Enoch, Melchizedek, Joseph, etc. Pages of new stuff, not available in any Bible text of his day, were added to the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible.

For the Book of Abraham, Joseph gained possession of ancient papyri from Egypt. The Lord revealed to him the Book of Abraham from those papyri. Whether the papyri actually contained the original writings of Abraham is immaterial, for the Lord's patter of working with Joseph was consistent. God revealed an ancient document to Joseph, using the papyri as a catalyst. Today, we have other Abrahamic writings that corroborate many of the teachings in the BoA (Abraham being sacrificed, Abraham teaching the cosmos to the Egyptians, etc).

Now, does this have a precedent? According to the scriptures, Moses received the Creation story via revelation. Perhaps a need to construct the history of the Israelites was a necessary catalyst for Moses to know Adam down to Joseph, as Moses was creating a new nation out of Israelites, and perhaps others who had attached themselves to Israel over the centuries of enslavement to Egypt.

Heavenly books are a part and parcel of ancient Israel's belief. John the apostle was given a book to swallow. Both Lehi (1 Nephi 1), and Isaiah (Ascension of Isaiah) were given a book to read, after which, both prophesied. Enoch was known as a holy scribe, writing down the things God taught him when he went to the heavens. So, there is somewhat of a pattern involved here.

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