Will there be polyandry in Heaven?

[Moksha]

it still makes all of us weather forecasters who say it might snow today....or its likely to snow today....untill it does, we have no idea what would have happened or what will happen.....

Or they could be like me and forget that it snowed, and end up saying, "Are you sure it snowed?", not having the foggiest idea.

:)

[Palerider]

I think you fail to recognize that Elphaba’s comment and supporting documentation have little to do with the ‘what if Smith hadn’t died,’ and more to do with ‘what Emma felt while he was alive.’ The evidence cited provides ample evidence to reasonably conclude what her feelings about polygamy were. To say, “we can’t possibly know how she felt because Joseph Smith died before she had an opportunity to divorce him” is something you can only say if you put on some pretty heavy blinders (and from your post, it feels like this is what you are trying to say). We can know how she felt about it because she was making the threats, and playing the highest value card she had left to play.

I totally understand her feelings about what she was saying.....we still don't know other than have our opinions if she would have divorced him...I never said we can't possibly know how she felt....

I think you are reading way too much into it

Believe me...Elphaba and I have been in numerous battles over the past year or two...mostly politics and some church history....she would have called me on it....none the less,,.....she is still my favorite Liberal....:)

[Palerider]

Or they could be like me and forget that it snowed, and end up saying, "Are you sure it snowed?", not having the foggiest idea.

:)

trying to find the laugh button.....

[Palerider]

Only the conservative ones.

Elph

still searching for the laugh button.....

[foreverafter]

Plural marriage was ended in 1890.......women in the US were allowed to vote in 1920. You do understand that this Holy practice will continue....probably during the millennium don't you? Actually, it is practiced today.....worthy men can be sealed to more than one woman...after the death of his first wife. Elder Nelson was recently sealed to a new wife.

The practice of plural marriage isn't unrighteousness or wrong.....perhaps some of the brethren that entered into the practice were in error, but anything instituted by God can not be wrong.

The women of Utah were the 1st to receive the right to vote & that was in the 1800s. The nation did it because they felt bad for the women of Utah living in polygamy & wanted to give them the ability to get out of their circumstances if they wanted to, so they gave them the power to vote.

Yes, plural marriage is an eternal principle, but I believe it will be lived by far fewer than we think, because it takes such rare high righteousness to be worthy of it. And yes, they now seal all spouses together, men to their wives & women to all their husbands, though they wait until the woman dies to do it. There is much about this principle, especially pertaining to women that is yet to be revealed.

Just because a principle is instituted by God, like marriage or plural marriage, doesn't mean every instance of it is righteous. The people who enter it must be worthy for it to be valid & a righteous thing. Plural Marriage, (polygamy) when unauthorized, like in most all societies in the history of the world & these days & when entered unworthily is an abomination the Prophets say.

The Prophets have taught over & over that people can commit adultery by entering marriage unworthily, like after a divorce if they weren't justified, & that would go for plural marriage also. Brigham Young told men back than that if they don't treat their 1st wife right & are righteous they won't have any wife or children at all in the eternities, no matter how many they had in this life.

Edited March 17, 2009 by foreverafter

[bytor2112]

The women of Utah were the 1st to receive the right to vote & that was in the 1800s. The nation did it because they felt bad for the women of Utah living in polygamy & wanted to give them the ability to get out of their circumstances if they wanted to, so they gave them the power to vote.

Actually,"Women's Suffrage--the right of women to vote--was won twice in Utah. It was granted first in 1870 by the territorial legislature but revoked by Congress in 1887 as part of a national effort to rid the territory of polygamy. It was restored in 1895, when the right to vote and hold office was written into the constitution of the new state." Utahgov.

Read more here..Women's Suffrage in Utah

Yes, plural marriage is an eternal principle, but I believe it will be lived by far fewer than we think, because it takes such rare high righteousness to be worthy of it. And yes, they now seal all spouses together, men to their wives & women to all their husbands, though they wait until the woman dies to do it. There is much about this principle, especially pertaining to women that is yet to be revealed.

Women to all their husbands???? Women may only be sealed to one husband.

The Prophets have taught over & over that people can commit adultery by entering marriage unworthily, like after a divorce if they weren't justified, & that would go for plural marriage also.

Well, you are consistent aren't you. Sister, there are likely members on this site that have been divorced from their spouses and remarried........ remarried and sealed in the Temple. You might consider that before you post what is YOUR personal belief....not the teachings of the church. What you continue to claim regarding "unjustified" divorce being adultery is simply not true and I have posted quotes from men we sustain as Prophets, Seers and Revelators that absolutely refute your comments.

[foreverafter]

Women to all their husbands???? Women may only be sealed to one husband.

Sister, there are likely members on this site that have been divorced from their spouses and remarried........ remarried and sealed in the Temple. You might consider that before you post what is YOUR personal belief....not the teachings of the church. What you continue to claim regarding "unjustified" divorce being adultery is simply not true and I have posted quotes from men we sustain as Prophets, Seers and Revelators that absolutely refute your comments.

Yes, women are usually now sealed to all their husbands after the woman dies.

If people are justified to be divorced & remarried then they are fine. But just because someone obtains a recommend to remarry after divorce does not mean they are worthy of it or that the marriage is righteous or valid. For the person themselves declares if they are worthy or not or justified or not, & the church usually just goes along with what people say, unless the person confesses to abuse or abandonment of their spouse or adultery, etc. But most people who do these things never confess or think they are guilty, they usually put the blame on their spouse & so leaders don't find out. Many people abuse their spouse & children by unjustified abandonment & divorce & are never detected or disciplined & retain their recommends & go on to remarry. But the Prophets say that these people will not get away with it forever & someday the truth will be known.

The Prophets have warned that it is rare for a divorce to be justified. People can decieve themselves & others very easily. And Prophet after Prophet has said that Divorce is one of the very worst Abominations & sins a person can commit today & is Adultery today as much as it ever was, if one was not justified. Pres. Hinckley said over & over that excommunication is the penalty for any form of unrepentant abuse, & just to threaten our spouse with unjustified divorce & abandonment is abuse, let alone to actually commit such abuse & do it. Unjustified Divorce is usually severe emotional, financial, sexual & mental abuse on the spouse & almost always tramatic emotional abuse on the children. We must be careful to not be deceived by the philosophies of men today that the Prophets say most members are falling for that excuse these sins.

Edited March 17, 2009 by foreverafter

[Just_A_Guy]

Foreverafter, you do realize that both Brigham Young and Joseph F. Smith were divorced. Right?

[foreverafter]

Foreverafter, you do realize that both Brigham Young and Joseph F. Smith were divorced. Right?

It is not something they wanted, their wives left them. Their wives who left are the ones who must be justified.

[bytor2112]

Yes, women are usually now sealed to all their husbands after the woman dies.

Sources????

If people are justified to be divorced & remarried then they are fine. But just because someone obtains a recommend to remarry after divorce does not mean they are worthy of it or that the marriage is righteous or valid. For the person themselves declares if they are worthy or not or justified or not, & the church usually just goes along with what people say, unless the person confesses to abuse or abandonment of their spouse or adultery, etc. But most people who do these things never confess or think they are guilty, they usually put the blame on their spouse & so leaders don't find out. Many people abuse their spouse & children by unjustified abandonment & divorce & are never detected or disciplined & retain their recommends & go on to remarry. But the Prophets say that these people will not get away with it forever & someday the truth will be known.

??????So, you are saying that Temple recommend interviews with Bishops and Stake Presidents....don't count? Certainly, if someone lies to obtain a Temple recommend he/she will be held accountable unless they repent.

What of the excommunicated member that is interviewed and deemed worthy by a General Authority to be re-baptized and then remarries?

It sounds like you have a definite misunderstanding of the teachings of the church and frankly a lack of understanding of the Atonement. You really should provide sources for your claims that "Prophets" have said any thing close to some of your comments. People get divorced...it happens, often for not very good reasons. In this life, the Lord's church permits remarriage. I have posted quotes from Elder Bruce R McConkie and Elder Dallin Oaks verifying that.....yet you claim they are in error? Do you sustain our Apostles as Prophets, Seers and Revelators?

The Prophets have warned that it is rare for a divorce to be justified. People can decieve themselves & others very easily. And Prophet after Prophet has said that Divorce is one of the very worst Abominations & sins a person can commit today & is Adultery today as much as it ever was, if one was not justified. Pres. Hinckley said over & over that excommunication is the penalty for any form of unrepentant abuse, & just to threaten our spouse with unjustified divorce & abandonment is abuse, let alone to actually commit such abuse & do it. Unjustified Divorce is usually severe emotional, financial, sexual & mental abuse on the spouse & almost always tramatic emotional abuse on the children. We must be careful to not be deceived by the philosophies of men today that the Prophets say most members are falling for that excuse these sins.

I would ask you to not forget that people who commit abuses or adultery or abandon their family or sorry men who leave there wives for another woman or what ever the case may be......can repent and be forgiven. They can be just as clean as the driven snow in the Lord's eyes. Your comments seem to reflect a lack of understanding of the Atonement.

When you make sweeping statements regarding a Prophets alleged comments....please cite the source so that we can all read it.....as I did with Elder oaks and Elder McConkie.

[foreverafter]

So, you are saying that Temple recommend interviews with Bishops and Stake Presidents....don't count? Certainly, if someone lies to obtain a Temple recommend he/she will be held accountable unless they repent.

What of the excommunicated member that is interviewed and deemed worthy by a General Authority to be re-baptized and then remarries?

I believe you answered your question, members must tell the whole truth to leaders in interviews for worthiness to be confirmed.

I would think that as long as an excommunicated member has told the whole truth & truely repented then he can be forgiven & worthy to remarry, if he has made as much restitution as possible & continues to do so & his former spouse does not want him back.

[foreverafter]

I would ask you to not forget that people who commit abuses or adultery or abandon their family or sorry men who leave there wives for another woman or what ever the case may be......can repent and be forgiven. They can be just as clean as the driven snow in the Lord's eyes. Your comments seem to reflect a lack of understanding of the Atonement.

If a person commits abuse, adultery or abandons their spouse they must fully repent in order to be forgiven. Repentance for these kinds of things almost always takes years of restitution to their former spouse. If the spouse does not want them back, then they may be worthy to remarry another. But if they are not willing to return & repent to their spouse & make it up to them for the rest of their life, for that's usually how long it takes to regain trust, then it is not true repentance. That would be like the Bank Robber saying he's sorry but he wants to keep the money. One cannot repent & keep the perks of the sin, (keep the person they left their spouse for, unless the former spouse does not want them back.)

I do not have time to list all the references to the Prophets who have taught these things but I would direct you to the writings on marriage & divorce by Joseph Fielding Smith, Brigham Young, E.T. Benson, Pres. Hinckley, Pres. Kimball & James E. Talmage, for starters. When Apostles say things that don't seem to square with what Presidents of the Church say, then the Church says to go with the Presidents teachings, for Presidents are the only ones who won't lead us astray. All lesser authorities much square with the Presidents words. As far as Elder Oaks comments, he did say that a divorced person is only worthy of the temple if they have not commited some grave sin, (which abuse, adultery or abandonment would be).

Edited March 17, 2009 by foreverafter

[bytor2112]

I believe you answered your question, members must tell the whole truth to leaders in interviews for worthiness to be confirmed.

I would think that as long as an excommunicated member has told the whole truth & truely repented then he can be forgiven & worthy to remarry, if he has made as much restitution as possible & continues to do so & his former spouse does not want him back.

Again, you make assertions that you can't substantiate. He/she can remarry whether his/her former spouse wants them back or not.

(SIGH):surrender:

[bytor2112]

If a person commits abuse, adultery or abandons their spouse they must fully repent in order to be forgiven. Repentance for these kinds of things almost always takes years of restitution to their former spouse. If the spouse does not want them back, then they may be worthy to remarry another. But if they are not willing to return & repent to their spouse & make it up to them for the rest of their life, for that's usually how long it takes to regain trust, then it is not true repentance. That would be like the Bank Robber saying he's sorry but he wants to keep the money. One cannot repent & keep the perks of the sin, (keep the person they left their spouse for, unless the former spouse does not want them back.)

Yes, if someone does that...they must truly repent....which is to have a "mighty change of heart". If someone commits adultery and leaves their spouse....they can still repent and remarry.

[GingerGolden]

Ok, now for me, this is becoming very confusing...

Is there a list somewhere that has all the correct information for us that haven't studied all this to refer too, ya'll have my head in a spin now...

Good references will be excellent! Links for reading would be helpful.

(and a special thank you for those that have and do...)

Edited March 17, 2009 by GingerGolden

[Connie]

Are we talking divorce now?? Boy, this thread has come a bit off topic.

Oh well, here's a talk by Dallin H. Oaks from the April 2007 General Conference on divorce:

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Divorce

[foreverafter]

Yes, if someone does that...they must truly repent....which is to have a "mighty change of heart". If someone commits adultery and leaves their spouse....they can still repent and remarry.

I guess we just must agree to disagree. I do hope you will check out those teachings if you are really concerned about this. Restitution is the biggest part of Repentance. It helps prove that we are truely repentant. One must restore what was destroyed by their sin, as much as possible, & if a person truely had a "change of heart" they would want no other thing than to return to their spouse & make it all up to them, in anyway their spouse needed them to. It would be their great remorse that their spouse would not want or take them back.

Edited March 17, 2009 by foreverafter

[bytor2112]

I do not have time to list all the references to the Prophets who have taught these things but I would direct you to the writings on marriage & divorce by Joseph Fielding Smith, Brigham Young, E.T. Benson, Pres. Hinckley, Pres. Kimball & James E. Talmage, for starters. When Apostles say things that don't seem to square with what Presidents of the Church say, then the Church says to go with the Presidents teachings, for Presidents are the only ones who won't lead us astray. All lesser authorities much square with the Presidents words.

Unless and until you cite quotes in context that support what you claim a church President said regarding these issues....then your comments are YOUR opinion only and they do not reflect church policy.

Elder Oaks is a current Apostle and I would urge you to prayerfully consider his comments as well as those of the late Elder McConkie on these issues. You mention President Joseph Fielding Smith.........Elder McConkie was his son-in-law. The quotes that I provided by these two men are found at lds.org the official church web site. I would be very hesitant to tell anyone that material posted for all the world to view by our church is incorrect.

Edited March 17, 2009 by bytor2112

[bytor2112]

I guess we just must agree to disagree. I do hope you will check out those teachings if you are really concerned about this. Restitution is the biggest part of Repentance. It shows that we are truely repentant. One must restore what was destroyed by their sin, as much as possible, & if a person truely had a "change of heart" they would want no other thing than to return to their spouse & make it all up to them, in anyway their spouse needed them to. It would be their great remorse that their spouse would not want or take them back.

I would be glad to check out the teachings.....since you seem to know them so well, perhaps you could site an actual quote? One that says, if two people marry and later divorce, they are guilty of adultery.

[Just_A_Guy]

The women of Utah were the 1st to receive the right to vote & that was in the 1800s. The nation did it because they felt bad for the women of Utah living in polygamy & wanted to give them the ability to get out of their circumstances if they wanted to, so they gave them the power to vote.

In addition to what Bytor has written, "the nation" did not give Utah women the right to vote. "The nation" took it away--because those pesky polygamous Mormon women kept voting for the status quo.

[bytor2112]

Are we talking divorce now?? Boy, this thread has come a bit off topic.

Oh well, here's a talk by Dallin H. Oaks from the April 2007 General Conference on divorce:

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Divorce

I posted that as well as comments from Elder Bruce McConkie earlier......but Foreverafter thinks those two Apostles are in error.

[Connie]

I posted that as well as comments from Elder Bruce McConkie earlier......

I must have missed that and still can't seem to locate it, could you point out a post number, i would really like to read the McConkie stuff.

but Foreverafter thinks those two Apostles are in error.

She has said some pretty outlandish stuff IMO. I, for another, would also like to see some sources for these.

[Vort]

The women of Utah were the 1st to receive the right to vote & that was in the 1800s. The nation did it because they felt bad for the women of Utah living in polygamy & wanted to give them the ability to get out of their circumstances if they wanted to, so they gave them the power to vote.

You have this 180° backward. The polygamous Saints enfranchised their women; the nation took the vote away, and only restored it years later.

[bytor2112]

I must have missed that and still can't seem to locate it, could you point out a post number, i would really like to read the McConkie stuff.

She has said some pretty outlandish stuff IMO. I, for another, would also like to see some sources for these.

Sorry, I posted it on the thread about divorce.

-Bytor

Elder Bruce R. McConkie applied this principle to the subject of divorce: “Divorce is not part of the gospel plan. … But because men in practice do not always live in harmony with gospel standards, the Lord permits divorce for one reason or another, depending upon the spiritual stability of the people involved. … Under the most perfect conditions there would be no divorce permitted except where sex sin was involved. In this day divorces are permitted in accordance with civil statutes, and the divorced persons are permitted by the Church to marry again without the stain of immorality which under a higher system would attend such a course.”

__________________

Edited March 17, 2009 by bytor2112

[Snow]

Sorry, I posted it on the thread about divorce.

-Bytor

Elder Bruce R. McConkie applied this principle to the subject of divorce: “Divorce is not part of the gospel plan. … But because men in practice do not always live in harmony with gospel standards, the Lord permits divorce for one reason or another, depending upon the spiritual stability of the people involved. … Under the most perfect conditions there would be no divorce permitted except where sex sin was involved. In this day divorces are permitted in accordance with civil statutes, and the divorced persons are permitted by the Church to marry again without the stain of immorality which under a higher system would attend such a course.”

__________________

Brigham Young didn't have any difficulty with divorce.