Does God want members of His Church to prosper financially?

[Snow]

That's just a normal eye reaction. A pupil dilates when there is less light in order to allow more light in - when the eyelid closes there is less light and so the pupil dilates.The dilated pupil is apparent when the eye opens, but then more light is coming in so it contracts. All this happens very quickly in a blink.

That's one theory. The other theory, of course, is that I am focusing a ray of evil energy into your soul.

[a-train]

So mysterious!

[WillowTheWhisp]

If it's going to be as difficult for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven as it is for a camel to get through the eye of a needle (which i downright imposible)I guess we won't be seing many General Authorities there.

We dont have those "Give me all your money" TV evangelist types here so it's not something I can easily relate to, but I do see people in the Church who are 'comfortably off' who simply cannot understand how difficult it is for a poorer person to get to the temple when it is 'only 20 minutes down the motorway' - yes but if you don't own a car it's several hours by public transport (waiting between changing buses) and can use up a whole week's shopping money. Wouldn't it be nicer if the poor person had a little more so they could go to the temple as often as they would wish?

[rameumptom]

Actually, we will see many GAs there. It is impossible for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, UNLESS God works the miracle. With God, nothing is impossible.

So, if a rich person seeks God and His kingdom first, then his riches will be used for godly purposes, and the individual can be saved. But if the person squanders the riches on himself, then he is as a camel that physically cannot pass through the eye of a needle of his own accord.

[beefche]

If it's going to be as difficult for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven as it is for a camel to get through the eye of a needle (which i downright imposible)I guess we won't be seing many General Authorities there.

We dont have those "Give me all your money" TV evangelist types here so it's not something I can easily relate to, but I do see people in the Church who are 'comfortably off' who simply cannot understand how difficult it is for a poorer person to get to the temple when it is 'only 20 minutes down the motorway' - yes but if you don't own a car it's several hours by public transport (waiting between changing buses) and can use up a whole week's shopping money. Wouldn't it be nicer if the poor person had a little more so they could go to the temple as often as they would wish?

And what I would expect would those members who had money to offer rides to those who were poor so they could all go to the Temple together. We do that here in our ward--we car share to the temple.

[a-train]

Wouldn't it be nicer if the poor person had a little more so they could go to the temple as often as they would wish?

YES! And that is why capital improvement is so important. The poor must save and use their savings to buy income producing assets. Only then will they become able to afford to go as often as they wish. But if they continue to live up to or beyond their means, they will be perpetually poor.

The rich must also save and use their savings to buy income producing assets. They must use these savings to enhance productivity. By so doing, goods become less expensive to all, thus easing the strain of the cost of living for everyone including and especially the poorest entities in the economy.

Perhaps through saving the family will move closer to the temple. Perhaps they will buy a car. Perhaps they will rent one or afford a cab ride. Perhaps the cab company, through capital improvements, will be able to lower their rates.

To some it seems harsh to live a life void of movie rentals, dining out, road trips, vacation time, dance lessons, and so forth. But the reality is that much of this actually prevents an even better lifestyle down the road. More consumption today costs us a great deal more consumption in the future.

-a-train

[WillowTheWhisp]

Actually, we will see many GAs there. It is impossible for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, UNLESS God works the miracle. With God, nothing is impossible.

So, if a rich person seeks God and His kingdom first, then his riches will be used for godly purposes, and the individual can be saved. But if the person squanders the riches on himself, then he is as a camel that physically cannot pass through the eye of a needle of his own accord.

Exactly! So why are people continuing to insist that being rich is going to automatically keep people out of Heaven? It cannot be so.

And what I would expect would those members who had money to offer rides to those who were poor so they could all go to the Temple together. We do that here in our ward--we car share to the temple.

And that would be lovely if it worked everywhere but sometimes the people who have enough just don't see how impossible some things are for the people who don't.

[beefche]

And that would be lovely if it worked everywhere but sometimes the people who have enough just don't see how impossible some things are for the people who don't.

Couldn't people ask? I know sisters have approached the RS president privately and requested an announcement that if anyone is going to the temple and can offer rides to others to let the RS presidency know. In our ward, we've done it 2 ways--RS president announced publicly that there were sisters who would like to go to the temple and if anyone was driving and could take others to just let us know and we can announce it. The other way was RS president announced that there were people who would like to go to the temple and if anyone was driving to let the RS president know and she would connect the driver with the riders.

[Elgama]

We dont have those "Give me all your money" TV evangelist types here so it's not something I can easily relate to, but I do see people in the Church who are 'comfortably off' who simply cannot understand how difficult it is for a poorer person to get to the temple when it is 'only 20 minutes down the motorway' - yes but if you don't own a car it's several hours by public transport (waiting between changing buses) and can use up a whole week's shopping money. Wouldn't it be nicer if the poor person had a little more so they could go to the temple as often as they would wish?

Like President Hinckley says when there are members who need to sell all their goods and walk weeks to get to a temple (although that has been cut since he said it), and only ever get to go once in their lives - we should be grateful for what we have in the UK. Or are you going to suggest a person who sells everything, has no idea where the next meal is coming from, puts their faith in the Lord and walks to the temple is less righteous and unworthy of the Celestial Kingdom because they only ever do their own endownment session and sealing?

The reverse is true in our branch its the poor and out of work that get to go more often, they take the Stake Transport on Stake Temple trips and can go on every trip. I can't go this year because my husband has used all his time off on baby and moving house. When you work and the temple is at least 6 hours drive away getting the time to go is not easy.

And like Beefche has said why can't the people wondering why offer a lift, I lived in one of the wealthiest wards in the country at one point I never lacked for transport to the temple. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is worldwide on that scale not one of us in the UK can understand the poverty of others. even when poor we are rich

-Charley

Edited March 26, 2009 by Elgama
double post

[Elgama]

We dont have those "Give me all your money" TV evangelist types here so it's not something I can easily relate to, but I do see people in the Church who are 'comfortably off' who simply cannot understand how difficult it is for a poorer person to get to the temple when it is 'only 20 minutes down the motorway' - yes but if you don't own a car it's several hours by public transport (waiting between changing buses) and can use up a whole week's shopping money. Wouldn't it be nicer if the poor person had a little more so they could go to the temple as often as they would wish?

Like President Hinckley says when there are members who need to sell all their goods and walk weeks to get to a temple (although that has been cut since he said it), and only ever get to go once in their lives - we should be grateful for what we have in the UK. Or are you going to suggest a person who sells everything, has no idea where the next meal is coming from, puts their faith in the Lord and walks to the temple is less righteous and unworthy of the Celestial Kingdom because they only ever do their own endownment session and sealing?

The reverse is true in our branch its the poor and out of work that get to go more often, they take the Stake Transport on Stake Temple trips and can go on every trip. I can't go this year because my husband has used all his time off on baby and moving house. When you work and the temple is at least 6 hours drive away getting the time to go is not easy.

And like Beefche has said why can't the people wondering why offer a lift, I lived in one of the wealthiest wards in the country at one point I never lacked for transport to the temple. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is worldwide on that scale not one of us in the UK can understand the poverty of others. even when poor we are rich

And that would be lovely if it worked everywhere but sometimes the people who have enough just don't see how impossible some things are for the people who don't.

This is why Zion is a community effort, the church will always have poor as long as people do not work together and share resources. Its not a sign of righteousness or unrighteousness to be prosperous or not. Right now in terms of our branch we are fairly prosperous, but we have also been the worse off by a long shot

-Charley

[WillowTheWhisp]

Or are you going to suggest a person who sells everything, has no idea where the next meal is coming from, puts their faith in the Lord and walks to the temple is less righteous and unworthy of the Celestial Kingdom because they only ever do their own endownment session and sealing?

Cerainly not. Please don't put words in my mouth.

I am talking about when Stake personnel (who live right bang on the Temple doorstep) visit other Wards in our Stake and tell members they don;t attend the temple often enough. These people have no idea how much some members struggle to get to the temple even once a month.

The reverse is true in our branch its the poor and out of work that get to go more often, they take the Stake Transport on Stake Temple trips and can go on every trip.

Well that's nice for the poor in your Ward. We don't have Stake Transport. I suppose that's because our Stake Centre is in the Temple grounds and the Wards are scattered around it so that people come to it from different directions. We have a "Stake Temple Trip" this weekend but it is only a "trip" in the sense that everybody is expected to find their own way there. There is no Stake Tranport. People with cars will be taking people without cars but there are more people without cars than are able tofit in the spaces in the cars of the people who have cars.

I can't go this year because my husband has used all his time off on baby and moving house. When you work and the temple is at least 6 hours drive away getting the time to go is not easy.

I can relate to that. When we only had the London Temple our Stake trips were organised to leave Chorley at 6pm on the Friday evening. I worked in a bank which didn't close it doors until 6pm on Fridays and I often didn't get away until 7pm. Add to that the ravelling time to Chorley and the bus would be long gone before I even got there. The only time I managed to get on those trips was if they coincided with my holiday week. If it didn't, my late husband and I (before we had children) used to go down for a week and stay in the accomodation there, that would be our holiday.

And like Beefche has said why can't the people wondering why offer a lift, I lived in one of the wealthiest wards in the country at one point I never lacked for transport to the temple. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is worldwide on that scale not one of us in the UK can understand the poverty of others. even when poor we are rich

-Charley

That is only possible if the people wondering why are in the same Ward (and not in the Stake Centre on the Temple site) and have room in their vehicles to fit the other people in. In a wealthy ward like you describe where the majority have transport they are able to provide lifts for the minority. In a poorer ward where fewer people have cars and those who do are already full of their own family it isn't quite so easy. The people without transport outnumber the spare seats.

You have perfectly illustrated the point several times over when saying that the 'haves' need to do things and provide for the 'have nots' that this would be totally impossible if there were no 'haves'. In other words if everyone was poor, as seems to be advocated over and over again on this thread as the ideal, then who is going to be doing the things like offering the lifts to the Temple which you believe should be freely available? Doesn't it make more sense for more people to have those things like cars so there are more free seats than people needing them and no-one need struggle to get to the House of the Lord?

You keep comparing the UK to other countries of the world and saying that by comparison to them we are all rich - well as that is the case and if being rich is undesirable then maybe we should all be striving to become as poor as those other people and arrive at the situation where we can only manage to get to the temple once ever in our own lives for our own endowment, then we would be truly blessed because the poor are more blessed than the rich.

That just doesn't make sense does it?

[Newcomer4831]

I hope the only answer to this question is NO!

[WillowTheWhisp]

I hope the only answer to this question is NO!

Do you mean you hope God does not want us to proper? Why wouldn't he?

[Elgama]

That is only possible if the people wondering why are in the same Ward (and not in the Stake Centre on the Temple site) and have room in their vehicles to fit the other people in. In a wealthy ward like you describe where the majority have transport they are able to provide lifts for the minority. In a poorer ward where fewer people have cars and those who do are already full of their own family it isn't quite so easy. The people without transport outnumber the spare seats.

I have also lived in a very poor branch its got wealthier recently, but until 4 years ago the majority were on benefits and sick -have known people travel many miles out of their way to make sure those that can't otherwise get to places do, has your Bishop approached Stake President with the problem? It then becomes their responsibility to help you get there, or not. But whilst money to get to the temple is nice its not essential

You have perfectly illustrated the point several times over when saying that the 'haves' need to do things and provide for the 'have nots' that this would be totally impossible if there were no 'haves'. In other words if everyone was poor, as seems to be advocated over and over again on this thread as the ideal,

[

Very few have advocated anything other than following God and putting him ffirst in our lives then it doesn't matter either riches or poverty will follow whatever happens is right, many, many wards and branches manage whilst poor and with very few wealthy people.

You keep comparing the UK to other countries of the world and saying that by comparison to them we are all rich -

We are incredibly rich by world standards, even the poorest amongst us has access to food, water and healthcare. I have never stated at any point that wealth is a problem but as long as people are very wealthy. people are also going to be very poor. We are not at the stage of living the Law of Consecration but we are all covenanted to learn how to do so. Its a case of accepting what we have and doing the best with it.

I have simply stated I don't think Heavenly Father does necessarily care whether we are prosperous or not as individuals, he cares what we do with the situation we have. And I maintain anyone who has roof over their head, food in their bellies, access to mostly clean drinking water and healthcare is incredibly wealthy, anything after that is just nice to have

I just think it does not matter whether as an individual I am poor or rich -poverty is obviously the place I grow best in. I have been in both situations, until I was 14 life was prosperous with Auntie and Uncles who were incredibly wealthy, at 15 I was squatting in a building with £3.50 to my name and some dried pea soup, by 17 had roof over my head, and my highers, At uni I managed well but wasn't wealthy then got sick but being sick made me better off than had been for years. Then I was homeless again. etc Right now we are doing good not as well off as when I grew up but better off than have been for nearly 20 years. But as poor as I have been I have never ever been as poor as even some of the prophets in our scriptures have been at times.

I think one of the amazing scriptures is Lehi in the Book of Mormon, he went and dwelt in a tent, he had been an incredibly wealthy man, but had left much of his wealth behind because the Lord commanded him. And trusted in the promised land. I think the essence of that scripture is what this thread is about trust in the Lord and you will prosper as you are, be blessed as is needed both for yourself and the kingdom of God.

-Charley

Edited March 26, 2009 by Elgama

[bert10]

Hi Pam.

Have you not seen on the news very recently ...this woman who had degrees and yet could not find a job? Do you not think that if she had developed faith enough..she could have ask God to provide her with a job He would have done it?

The advice of the church is not in error...however, they have also taught to put God first in our lives.

I have experienced both. I find living from pay day to pay day...helps me keep God in my sight. There are way worst things than going hungry and missing car or utilities payments.

Remember the Sacrifice that God requires of us is Praise and we can use our lack to praise God. The more the lack or worse things that comes to us, the more we can praise God in Joy. And the more we can feel His Spirit and Love for us.

Have you praised God for the very lack that you perceive that you have? Try it for a while and see what happens. Praise God for the very woes that enter into your life. Try praising God for every bill that you receive in the mail. Try praising God for the lack of food that is in your house. And see what shall happen over time.

I tell you the truth...a man or woman can only praise God in their afflictions if they have sufficient faith and trust that God knows what He is doing with their life. And once a man/woman has this inner knowledge that God is with them and is aware of everything in their life..who can resist from praising God in joy for their very afflictions?

Peace be unto you

bert10

The way I've understood it...young people have been told to get an education so they can better support their families with the necessities of life. Men to support their families, and women to gain skills should they also need to. I've never heard we need an education so we can get rich.

I for one, would be happy just knowing I didn't have to live payday to payday.

Edited March 26, 2009 by bert10

[WillowTheWhisp]

has your Bishop approached Stake President with the problem?

Well it is the Stake President who has approached the Ward asking us to give even more, in the latest instance so all the youth can go to EFY. We re constantly being asked to give more, which is nigh on impossible for some people if they are already giving until it hurts and already going without things - do people choose to pay the fare to get to the temple, or put that towards EFY or to any of the various other worthy causes? If they had more at their disposal then it wouldn't be a dilemma but whichever they choose they will be criticised for not doing the others.

They don't need to be as rich as Bill Gates, just to prosper enough so that they can fulfil all that the Stake asks.

If prospering were a bad thing how come when people in the scriptures please God they prosper? How come Job was rewarded for his faithfulness and integrity with more wealth than he's had efore? How come Solomon when he asked for Wisdom was also given riches? It can't be contrary to Heavenly Father's will for us or why would he do that as a reward?

[rameumptom]

Exactly! So why are people continuing to insist that being rich is going to automatically keep people out of Heaven? It cannot be so.

And that would be lovely if it worked everywhere but sometimes the people who have enough just don't see how impossible some things are for the people who don't.

In our ward, we have on our bulletin board a list. Those planning trips to the temple will put their name and the number of open seats they have. Those needing a ride, can also put their names on the list. This way, they can match up, and attend together.

Sometimes, it isn't the fault of the rich. Sometimes, the rich are unaware of the needs of others. Until those needs are noted, nothing much can be done. Pride goes both ways in such circumstances. The pride of the rich keeps them from serving others and lifting others up. The pride of the poor has them envy the rich, and refusing to accept or appreciate what blessings they do receive from others.

And the rich can make it to heaven. But there is only one path for rich and poor. I could easily say that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a poor person with pride to get into heaven.

The key is, wealth is a burden and trial. Those without must learn humility and gratitude for what little they have. Those with wealth must learn humility and to gratefully share what they have with others.

[WillowTheWhisp]

I could easily say that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a poor person with pride to get into heaven.

I agree.

It isn't the having or the not having. It's the attitude.

[a-train]

as long as people are very wealthy. people are also going to be very poor.

Careful now, let us not believe in zero-sum-game theories. It is not required that anyone live in poverty for others to live in plenty.

-a-train

[Entrepreneur]

Luke 10 30-37

Repeating previous posts..having your heart set on riches is not good.

Would the story of the Samaritan be the same if he didn't pay for the injured mans stay at the Inn? We do not need money to help, but money can be used to assist others.

If money is bad why doesn't the devil double your paycheck every 2 weeks. Money is not bad...it is the love of money that is bad.

Many times in the Book of Mormon they prosper, forget God, gain pride, and have to be humbled.

[Churchmouse]

When I look at my savings account balance, I would have to say No.

[Snow]

Hi Pam.

Have you not seen on the news very recently ...this woman who had degrees and yet could not find a job? Do you not think that if she had developed faith enough..she could have ask God to provide her with a job He would have done it?

Is there any scientific or unbiased evidence that people who ask God for jobs get them more frequently than people who don't?

[solomon-helaman]

Is there any scientific or unbiased evidence that people who ask God for jobs get them more frequently than people who don't?

It is the same idea as wanting to keep dating that high school girl friend. God often times may have something better in mind for you. We need to give God glory if we succeed and give Him glory if we fail. If we do that then He WILL bless us. It may not be the exact job we are envisioning, but it will be the righteous lifestyle we envisioned. As we pray we should envision what God wants us to envision. That is why prayer is such an important part of the scientific equation.

So I agree that people can't just ask for a job and get it, but they can ask for the best.

[Just_A_Guy]

Snow, are you saying we shouldn't pray for material success?

(Alma 34:20 comes to mind, as does a scripture in 2 Nephi)

[Snow]

It is the same idea as wanting to keep dating that high school girl friend. God often times may have something better in mind for you. We need to give God glory if we succeed and give Him glory if we fail. If we do that then He WILL bless us. It may not be the exact job we are envisioning, but it will be the righteous lifestyle we envisioned. As we pray we should envision what God wants us to envision. That is why prayer is such an important part of the scientific equation.

So I agree that people can't just ask for a job and get it, but they can ask for the best.

So is there any unbiased or scientific evidence that people that give glory to God are more blessed than those that don't?