Need Help

[smitchell88]

You know I am sick and tired of people telling me what I think or don't understand or need to believe. Nicole this has not confirmed your initial assessment into my interrogation. What everyone is skimming over is this: It is not reconcilable and if you are going to tell me something is right you need to have something solid! We all know the sky is blue [well actually it doesn't have a color but that's beside the point], but if you told me the sky was purple, you need to have something other than "I believe it" or "God said so." I think you don't remember what it used to be like before you converted to Mormonism....

By the way, we didn't walk up to the missionaries, they walked up to us.... I could have just as easily left it alone until someone started talking about truth and being aliens [yes, if you're from another planet whether it be Pluto or the "Home Planet" you are an alien to Earth] and God being a man before he became God, and then I investigated because that is SO wrong compared to the ORIGINAL, ACCEPTED, and TRUE general teachings of the Christian church that have been around for 2,000 years. . . Now the other denominations do not have everything right but they do have the basics, and they are legit whether you believe it or not. I do not personally believe the same as everyone else but it's the principle of the situation...

[rameumptom]

Smitchell88 wrote: The Godhead is totally separate. They are all One, but at the same time they are separate beings. Just like ice, water, and steam are all separate, but they all come from one source - water, or in this case God.

This shows how little you know about the Bible AND the Christian creeds. Your description here is NOT of the Trinity, but of modalism. Modalism was condemned by St Augustine, and still is condemned by traditional Christianity today. Perhaps you need a Christian refresher of your own beliefs?

Smitchell88 wrote: By the way, what do you think a seer's stone is?? I guess you don't if you deny that Joseph Smith used magick. I also wonder how do you justify all the tall tales he told? It may seem like I am picking but I think it is relevant...

Joseph Smith DID use what today we would call magick. So what? Moses used a staff to perform miracles, just as Pharaoh's magicians did. Magick. Jacob found special reeds that allowed him to create striped goats and sheep out of Laban's flock. Magick. Rachel stole Laban's idols. Magick. Jesus used a common magician's trick of using clay on the blind man's eyes. Magick. Paul blessed a handkerchief that was then used to bless others. Magick.

Shall I go on with examples? If our claims of superstition makes Joseph Smith a fraud, then it must also apply to those silly superstitious people in the Bible, eh? Are you ready to reject Jesus, because he used the methods used in his day - which were clearly considered magick?

Smithcell88 wrote: The BOM is not the most historically accurate, it is the most mythologically reasonable... it plugs in, but does not have any evidence. Also in the Bible it is taught of a false prophet, and to beware of him... I guess that's out the window!

I agree that the Book of Mormon is not the most historical book. It isn't a history. It is a spiritual record. After Nephi's death, hundreds of years are described in less than a dozen pages. That isn't a history, whatsoever. Does it have historical information in it? Yes. But it is written from a Nephite point of view, and with the motive to convert people to Jesus. In this instance, it does just that.

However, that does not mean there is no evidence. Much evidence has been found to show that the BoM is of ancient origin. Once again, I recommend fairlds.org for a list of hundreds of articles that discuss many of these points. For example, over Book of Mormon 40 names, unknown in Joseph Smith's day, are now found to be of Semitic origin. The name Alma was considered a joke: using a Spanish woman's name for a man! But when the Bar Kokhba letters were found about 50 years ago, they found in them the sale of land to a man named Alma. How could Joseph Smith know? One or two may be lucky guesses, but 40 names?

Methodist preacher and OT scholar Margaret Barker has stated that Lehi's world should reflect the Jerusalem of 600BC. She said that it is spot on. Lehi's vision of the tree of life describes the mother of God, who used to be worshiped in the temple, until the Deuteronomists removed her. Lehi carried on the older temple rite, and taught it to his children! Many wonder why Nephi sees the tree of life, and immediately see Mary and Baby Jesus, and then he exclaims that he understands its meaning - today's scholars can easily see that the Tree of Life is God's wife and the fruit is their child. Mary represents God's wife, and Jesus is the fruit. I do not see a 23 year old farm boy being able to guess at such stuff, stuff which scholars of his day would not have known nor understood.

While Jesus warned of false prophets, he did so because there would also be true prophets. After his death, Agabus prophecied to Paul, and Paul believed him. John prophecied in the Revelation that in the last days would be two prophets in Jerusalem for 3 1/2 years giving their prophecy and doing miracles. Should we suddenly disbelieve Paul and John, simply because you choose to misinterpret the Bible you claim to know so well, but obviously do not?

The history of the Christian Church is not like you think it is. It is very messy and difficult to follow at times. I suggest you read some of Prof Bart Ehrman's writings on the New Testament. He'll get you very involved in the teachings of the Gnostics and other groups that competed for primacy of the Church in its first 500 years. Read up on Wikipedia about the Nicene Council and the early Church Fathers to see just how their views differ from yours and traditional Christianity. See how the concept of the Protestants breaking off from the Catholic Church actually breaks them off from their belief in a continuity of the Church. I have an advanced degree in history, and have spent 30 years studying early Jewish and Christian writings.

More than one heaven? Try reading the Book of Enoch, Apocalypse of Paul, and the Ascension of Isaiah.

Many of the early Christian reformers thought God would restore his church through modern apostles. Here are some quotes from one of my web pages:

John Wesley realized that the gifts of the Holy Ghost were no longer found:

It does not appear that these extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost were common in the Church for more than two or three centuries. We seldom hear of them after that fatal period when the Emperor Constantine called himself a Christian;...From this time they almost totally ceased;...The Christians had no more of the Spirit of Christ than the other heathens....This was the real cause why the extraordinary figts of the Holy Ghost were no longer to be found in the Christian Church; because the Christians were turned Heathens again, and had only a dead form left. (Wesley's Works, vol 7, Sermon 89, pp. 26-27).

Wesley's point is interesting to note, when one considers what the early Christian, Justin Martyr, stated to the Jewish priest, Trypho: that the only difference between the Jews and Christians was that the Christians had revelation; and if the day ever came that the Christians were to cease having revelation, they would be no better than the Jews.

Roger Williams predicted a restoration was needed:

There is no regularly constituted church on earth, nor any person authorized to administer any church ordinance; nor can there be until new apostles are sent by the Great Head of the Church for whose coming I am seeking. (Picturesque America, p. 502).

You can read more at my LDS Evidences web page: LDS Evidence Home Page - witnesses of Mormonism

You keep claiming no one is giving any evidence, just touchy-feely testimonies. Well, I've given about 4 posts with evidences now, and you haven't responded to any of them. Perhaps you are unwilling to admit you are wrong, or that perhaps there are evidences that you really have no desire to know anything about. Beware of your statements, because you risk bearing false witness against the Mormon Church.

Edited April 15, 2009 by rameumptom

[bytor2112]

You know I am sick and tired of people telling me what I think or don't understand or need to believe. Nicole this has not confirmed your initial assessment into my interrogation. What everyone is skimming over is this: It is not reconcilable and if you are going to tell me something is right you need to have something solid! We all know the sky is blue [well actually it doesn't have a color but that's beside the point], but if you told me the sky was purple, you need to have something other than "I believe it" or "God said so." I think you don't remember what it used to be like before you converted to Mormonism....

By the way, we didn't walk up to the missionaries, they walked up to us.... I could have just as easily left it alone until someone started talking about truth and being aliens [yes, if you're from another planet whether it be Pluto or the "Home Planet" you are an alien to Earth] and God being a man before he became God, and then I investigated because that is SO wrong compared to the ORIGINAL, ACCEPTED, and TRUE general teachings of the Christian church that have been around for 2,000 years. . . Now the other denominations do not have everything right but they do have the basics, and they are legit whether you believe it or not. I do not personally believe the same as everyone else but it's the principle of the situation...

When I first read your posts, I assumed you were 13 or 14 years old. What a surprise to find out you are actually an adult? Your comments are both arrogant and ignorant. Since you already know the answers and believe that you have the ORIGINAL, ACCEPTED and TRUE general teachings, why come here and make silly comments and show how little you actually know?

[Islander]

You know I am sick and tired of people telling me what I think or don't understand or need to believe. Nicole this has not confirmed your initial assessment into my interrogation. What everyone is skimming over is this: It is not reconcilable and if you are going to tell me something is right you need to have something solid! We all know the sky is blue [well actually it doesn't have a color but that's beside the point], but if you told me the sky was purple, you need to have something other than "I believe it" or "God said so." I think you don't remember what it used to be like before you converted to Mormonism....

By the way, we didn't walk up to the missionaries, they walked up to us.... I could have just as easily left it alone until someone started talking about truth and being aliens [yes, if you're from another planet whether it be Pluto or the "Home Planet" you are an alien to Earth] and God being a man before he became God, and then I investigated because that is SO wrong compared to the ORIGINAL, ACCEPTED, and TRUE general teachings of the Christian church that have been around for 2,000 years. . . Now the other denominations do not have everything right but they do have the basics, and they are legit whether you believe it or not. I do not personally believe the same as everyone else but it's the principle of the situation...

OK, now that you are convinced we are all wrong, lost, misguided and duped into believing a false religion you can on with your life and continue in your merry way. You do not have to waste your time in silly forums like this one arguing with people that, according to you, do not understand Christianity.

Good luck...

[bytebear]

You want concrete evidence that the Book of Mormon is true. How about this:

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery

David Whitmer

Martin Harris

And this

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer

Jacob Whitmer

Peter Whitmer, Jun

John Whitmer

Hiram Page

Joseph Smith, Sen

Hyrum Smith

Samuel H. Smith

[smitchell88]

It is like trying to tell a child why Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy don't exist...

Yeah, and I assumed you all were idiots, and followed blindly. If you cannot see that what you believe does not match up with the rest of the teachings, then I am sorry for you. You may think I pick at Joseph Smith, but in the Bible it says to know a prophet not by his teachings and words but by his deeds. [if Joseph Smith never lived we wouldn't even have the LDS Church.] Joseph Smith used magick. Bottom line. He lied about many things and even went to court for it [for being a "disorderly person and an impostor" by a court in nearby Bainbridge]. He used a seer's stone to find the tablets, and before the tablets he was paid as an unsuccessful treasure hunter... He made up God telling him something so that he could have more than one wife and get away with it. That shows his character. Why would you want to follow somebody like that?? You may say that a lot of important people in the Bible used what we would call today magick. To me it is all the same thing. Spells and prayers are the same. Miracles and magick are the same. However, the Christian does not think like that and that is why it is an issue concerning Christian religions. I bet most of you would agree that the men and women executed and jailed during the Salem witch trials needed it, and it was not unorthodox, but because His Holiness Joseph Smith practiced magick 200 years later it is OKAY.

Moses did not literally see God as man-like. Did you know that God really has no form, but he is anthropomorphic because we cannot in our human minds reconcile what he really looks like, because the only idea we have is of man?

I think it rather arrogant of YOU to believe that you are right about everything, and that you are a saint. Wow... I have been told I am wise in my discernment concerning religion. I do not get a big head over it because I realize often that I am wrong and relent. I do not tell you I am right about everything, I just cannot understand why you believe what you do, especially after having done so much research myself. By the way, I do not myself have the original, accepted, and true teachings, and I don't claim to. I have been told them but I do not hold them myself. However, there are so many facts that you and other LDS believers simply ignore because God didn't say they were right or your prophet didn't, or they said they were wrong or whatever. Even though it is right in front of your face. The Bible should not be taken literally. It is not historically accurate, but it has much more historical correspondence to actual occurences than does the Book of Mormon. The Nephites and Lamanites [to answer someone's earlier question about "How would I know"] wouldn't have left anything behind because they never came to America. But if they did it would be the ancient artifacts of the Natives to all the Americas. Who now, by the way, and have for a very, very, very long time, believe in a very pagan-like theology although they do not adhere to the claims of being Pagan...

If you cannot take the character and morals of your first Prophet and see that it is not good, then I truly feel sorry for you. Most of your teachings today are very good, although many of them contradict the Old and New Testament. But you cannot call yourself the one true church, because you are not, and you cannot tell everyone in the world that you have the truth, because you do not. And neither do I. I was trying to get answers, real, believable, concrete answers that did not have faith and the Book of Mormon as a foundation because they are, again, compromised and in this case irrelevant. If all you have is that, then it's useless. I'll get information from someone who actually knows what they're talking about and can actually back up what they are telling me before they ask me to believe it and tell me it's the truth...

[smitchell88]

You want concrete evidence that the Book of Mormon is true. How about this:

And this

Lol... Again. You can have 50 people tell me the sky is purple because God said so but that doesn't make it TRUE.

[Vort]

And yes I do understand your history and theology...

As demonstrated by your previous posts, right?

my mom used to tell me that about the Catholic church but I understand that just as well.

Then you probably think that Catholics believe in reincarnation.

Maybe it is true for you and those others only, but it is not true for everyone,

Do you even have any idea what the word "true" means?

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree.

The favorite phrase of those unable to muster arguments in their behalf.

[Elphaba]

To everyone who keeps asking her why she bothered to come here, she came because she was invited . . . by her sister.

She didn't come here to be converted. She was very clear from the beginning she wasn't interested.

She also didn't know she was walking into an ambush of people falling all over themselves to tell her why she was wrong, only for them to turn into petulant children, making fun of her age and calling her names, because she didn't agree iwth them.

She was invited here.

Elphaba

[smitchell88]

Who WOULD come here to be converted?? Catholics do not believe in reincarnation. That is a pagan idealogy and there are very few Christians who will accept it.

I was invited, you're right. For once. The reason I said we must agree to disagree isn't because I can't defend myself but because obviously we cannot agree on much and I have already wasted a good amount of time on here. I am not getting any answers whatsoever... my basic one was with faith alone put aside, what do you have to make you believe it?? Everyone just kinda dances around it but that's okay...

Speaking of true:

1. being in accordance with the ACTUAL state or conditions; conforming to REALITY or FACT; not false: a true story.

I see I am the only one with common sense and logic. =\

[TheyCallMeMom]

She was invited here to get the answers to her questions that I just did not have. She came to me seeking them and I sent her here..

**********

I think your questions were in fact answered fairly, you just dont like the answers..

Again.. my initial assessment was right.. you didn't want to know truth.. you are not seeking this with an open heart.. you have already have your answer and you are looking for confirmation of it. You will never find it.. Just as you will not find the concrete evidence of the truth of our Chruch, you will not find concrete evidence that our beliefs are wrong.. even if we were to be wrong. At least not on this side of the veil..

Edited April 15, 2009 by TheyCallMeMom

[bytor2112]

It is like trying to tell a child why Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy don't exist...

Yeah, and I assumed you all were idiots, and followed blindly. If you cannot see that what you believe does not match up with the rest of the teachings, then I am sorry for you. You may think I pick at Joseph Smith, but in the Bible it says to know a prophet not by his teachings and words but by his deeds. [if Joseph Smith never lived we wouldn't even have the LDS Church.] Joseph Smith used magick. Bottom line. He lied about many things and even went to court for it [for being a "disorderly person and an impostor" by a court in nearby Bainbridge]. He used a seer's stone to find the tablets, and before the tablets he was paid as an unsuccessful treasure hunter... He made up God telling him something so that he could have more than one wife and get away with it. That shows his character. Why would you want to follow somebody like that?? You may say that a lot of important people in the Bible used what we would call today magick. To me it is all the same thing. Spells and prayers are the same. Miracles and magick are the same. However, the Christian does not think like that and that is why it is an issue concerning Christian religions. I bet most of you would agree that the men and women executed and jailed during the Salem witch trials needed it, and it was not unorthodox, but because His Holiness Joseph Smith practiced magick 200 years later it is OKAY.

Moses did not literally see God as man-like. Did you know that God really has no form, but he is anthropomorphic because we cannot in our human minds reconcile what he really looks like, because the only idea we have is of man?

I think it rather arrogant of YOU to believe that you are right about everything, and that you are a saint. Wow... I have been told I am wise in my discernment concerning religion. I do not get a big head over it because I realize often that I am wrong and relent. I do not tell you I am right about everything, I just cannot understand why you believe what you do, especially after having done so much research myself. By the way, I do not myself have the original, accepted, and true teachings, and I don't claim to. I have been told them but I do not hold them myself. However, there are so many facts that you and other LDS believers simply ignore because God didn't say they were right or your prophet didn't, or they said they were wrong or whatever. Even though it is right in front of your face. The Bible should not be taken literally. It is not historically accurate, but it has much more historical correspondence to actual occurences than does the Book of Mormon. The Nephites and Lamanites [to answer someone's earlier question about "How would I know"] wouldn't have left anything behind because they never came to America. But if they did it would be the ancient artifacts of the Natives to all the Americas. Who now, by the way, and have for a very, very, very long time, believe in a very pagan-like theology although they do not adhere to the claims of being Pagan...

If you cannot take the character and morals of your first Prophet and see that it is not good, then I truly feel sorry for you. Most of your teachings today are very good, although many of them contradict the Old and New Testament. But you cannot call yourself the one true church, because you are not, and you cannot tell everyone in the world that you have the truth, because you do not. And neither do I. I was trying to get answers, real, believable, concrete answers that did not have faith and the Book of Mormon as a foundation because they are, again, compromised and in this case irrelevant. If all you have is that, then it's useless. I'll get information from someone who actually knows what they're talking about and can actually back up what they are telling me before they ask me to believe it and tell me it's the truth...

Your arguments might be more convincing if rather than alleging the Bible states something you actually quoted the Chapter and verse to which you refer. Oh, and maybe you could also site your sources regarding Joseph Smith and maybe you could also show us exactly how through actual scripture how our beliefs disagree with the Old and New Testament.

Edited April 15, 2009 by bytor2112

[TRomans]

Catholics do not believe in reincarnation.

Ah finally you have said something that is correct. In case you did not pick it up Vort was not being serious.

[Islander]

Mooooooderator!!!! throw in the towel before they pull out their guns. They started to call each other idiots and stuff.

I think this thread has run its course.

[Elphaba]

I see I am the only one with common sense and logic. =\

That really helped.

Nevermind.

Elphaba

[bytebear]

I really don't know how else to respond. I don't mean to sound harsh, but when you say Moses never saw God, the Bible verses pop into my head that completely contradict you. Same goes with the character of Joseph Smith or the apparent belief that "magick" never existed in the Bible. Your statements are demonstably false. You simply lose all credibility when you say you have some special discernment of truth and then say Moses never saw God.

9 ¶ Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:

10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. Exodus 24:9-10

There are so many examples, from Jacob to Enoch to Paul to Stephen who all claimed to see God. I already gave you a link of the use of the so-called occultic practices of Biblical prophets, but you have not addressed any of this, other than to repeat yourselfi with not a single referrence to back it up.

[Moksha]

Everyone has their own opinion, yet all should be treated with graciousness.

[Vort]

Everyone has their own opinion, yet all should be treated with graciousness.

You mean like you treated others' opinions with graciousness in writing:

When President Obama speaks in South Bend, Indiana, perhaps those in opposition could bring in Sean Hannity afterward, to insult Obama thus rendering everything back to its previously holy state.*

(*Moksha, you better not be claiming credit for this previously used and proved truth idea.)

No, I realize it collectively belongs to the good citizens of Utah County.

That kind of graciousness?

[Traveler]

The electron exists according to our current paradigm. Obviously. The BOM is nothing but convenient explanations...

I am no longer a Catholic and so that was irrelevant. There are so many things I asked about or implied of that still have not been answered. It always reverts back to, "Well you have to have faith," or "The Book of Mormon is so accurate!" or "She doesn't understand the theology." I understand the theology very well, as well as the historicity and the logic, and because I understand it so well I don't get how anyone can believe it. THAT is the problem.

By the way, what do you think a seer's stone is?? I guess you don't if you deny that Joseph Smith used magick. I also wonder how do you justify all the tall tales he told? It may seem like I am picking but I think it is relevant...

The reason I asked about electrons is because our electron paradigm leaves a lot to be desired. Such as why electrons will not evaporate from black holes all by themselves but have a much higher propensity to “tunnel” than any other sub atomic particle? Or why does the mass of an electron diminish exponentially near absolute zero and other particles (protons and neutrons) do not? Or why charge is not evenly distributed in an electron shell or mass.

The Bohr atom model does not describe any actual existing atoms. It is so flawed it is only used symbolically and is never used in calculations.

My point is simple: What proof do you have of electrons? Have you seen one, heard one, touched one – what? Tell me one thing about an electron that you know for sure that I cannot dispute scientifically. I submit that you believe “tall tales” about electrons that are more associated with “magick” than anything Joseph Smith ever said.

Let’s take a look at something published under Joseph Smith that is such a tall tell. Please point out a single discrepancy in the Book of Mormon concerning the journey of Lehi alone the ancient Frankincense trail through the Arabian Peninsula. My personal studies in this indicates that ever critic that has ever published any criticism has been proven wrong. The reason I picked the Frankincense trail is because it is the only undisputed geographic location know specifically concerning the Book of Mormon. It is most interesting to me that concerning something with which we have indisputable reference there is no criticism – none.

The only “tall tells” I know of concerning Joseph Smith were never published by him but by second hand testimony published by someone other than Joseph Smith and never acknowledged by him. If you are ever accused in a court of law I hope you are not judged by the same standard by which you have judged.

As to your question about a seer stone. I do not have access to one and I do not have any method to verify anything claimed concerning seer stones. I do not know any critic that has better access than I do. Therefore, seer stones are a non-issue for me and I see nothing to be gained is pursuing innuendo that cannot be tested. If you have something worthwhile for consideration that can be verified – please feel free to offer it.

The Traveler

[RachelleDrew]

I think that the questions you are asking are completely understandable and legit.

It's the way that you are asking them that I have a problem with. Calling us idiots and claiming we lack common sense, that's generally just saying to us "I came here to put down Mormons because my life is boring and I have the amusement level of a twelve year old boy".

Here's the thing, there are several people on this board who aren't Mormon and some who are even atheists. However, they are welcome here because they can debate ideas and beliefs without being condescending or cruel. You apparently cannot do that.

There is nothing wrong with asking a question and not getting an answer you agree with. That's called making discernment with the brain you were given. But you were given answers you didn't agree with, and decided to berate the people who were trying to make you see why we believe the way we do.

Are we all just morons and you are the only intelligent person on this board to grace us with your dazzling intellect? Maybe, but if that is true you could try using your enormous brain to appreciate that some of the kind, gracious people here were just trying to help you and answer the questions YOU came here to ask.

Good luck with your answer seeking.

[smitchell88]

Okay so assuming I am a child is not insulting but me assuming that you guys are just ignorant is... wow, what a revelation. Thanks! =) Gracious people... which is why in the first several posts before mine I detected a decent amount of sarcasm. Because gracious people are never sarcastic... I was neither condescending nor cruel, either, and I am sorry you interpreted it that way. I do not think I am better than anyone or superior, I just find some things hard to believe. If the people here have truly been gracious, they sure have a funny way of showing it. Although I owe them an apology.

To the Traveler: "As to your question about a seer stone. I do not have access to one and I do not have any method to verify anything claimed concerning seer stones. I do not know any critic that has better access than I do. Therefore, seer stones are a non-issue for me and I see nothing to be gained is pursuing innuendo that cannot be tested. If you have something worthwhile for consideration that can be verified – please feel free to offer it." Uhm, isn't that what faith is? An innuendo, in a sense??

The difference is that we have evidence and many other things to confirm that electrons exist, whereas the only thing you have to tell me that the BoM is factual is "Because God told me to believe it!" and many other conveniences. You know the first parts of Nephi [yeah, I've actually read through it] sound a lot like a mixture between: Noah's Ark, Exodus, and Sodom and Gomorrah. You know, where the people were so evil God was going to destroy them [Noah's Ark and Sodom and Gomorroah, in case you haven't read them], and then leaving the region for fear of persecution and a more promising land [Exodus]. Hmmm...

...I meant Moses never actually SAW God. He saw a big flame in a burning bush, the presence of God. If God is a flame why don't we relate him to Hapheastus? Or Brighid? I don't know where you guys learned your English [or Old English] and maybe mine is different but last I checked the flame and the actual "personage," as is used a lot, are two different things.

If I told you that Vishnu appeared to me and told me to follow him and there are ancient records of his civilization and it was the one true faith then you'd be hard pressed to convert, I tell you that. Just as you would if I told you [all other things aside, like I think we can all agree that the Jews came from the modern-day middle eastern region and all the facts that go along with it...same principle] the modern-day Jews are really Native Americans that migrated from America before Jesus' birth... whoa! Yet you expect people to believe your story and can't even justify many things without using only your faith.

I came here to seek understanding, not "Because we believe it," and instead I got all these reasons why you think it could be true. Again the issue was not to disprove, but to understand and have something concrete. I hate to sound like a broken record but I don't think anyone is actually grasping the concept of "If you tell me it's true then give me a good reason why." Unfortunately the burden of proof rests on that which needs to be proven, not disproven, or assumed, and all you have are assumptions and convenient connections. =\ I am not asking you to take my personal beliefs as fact, and I am not evangelizing to the whole world. Maybe not you in particular, but you as a church are, and I think I am entitled to something...precise, real, solid, substantial... tangible. Need I throw any other words in there to get the meaning across?

If all you have to tell me is "Because I believe it" then fine, tell me. But do not dance around the fact that you very likely and possibly do not have the one truth... I, too, have to justify what I believe, although I am not asking anyone to believe it except myself....

I think the problem here is that you guys do not understand my questions and are having trouble answering them. Again, I could have left well enough alone until I had all these claims thrown on me and no one has been able to live up to them. There are even questions that Christianity in general fails to answer. But if you have the truth I need to know why, right? =\

[smitchell88]

She was invited here to get the answers to her questions that I just did not have. She came to me seeking them and I sent her here..

**********

I think your questions were in fact answered fairly, you just dont like the answers..

Again.. my initial assessment was right.. you didn't want to know truth.. you are not seeking this with an open heart.. you have already have your answer and you are looking for confirmation of it. You will never find it.. Just as you will not find the concrete evidence of the truth of our Chruch, you will not find concrete evidence that our beliefs are wrong.. even if we were to be wrong. At least not on this side of the veil..

Closed-mindedness would mean that I would not be asking questions at all but instead would be blatantly telling you that you are blatantly wrong, which I have not been doing. I have been telling you, and everyone on here, that I don't believe it and have been asking for concrete reasons why it IS true. I do think that it more than likely is not and I have several good reasons [i think anyway] why... Is that really too much to ask??

I am not looking for evidence why you are wrong, I am looking for evidence why you are right. Again, "the burden of proof rests on that which needs to be proven, not that which needs to be disproven." In looking for proof and good evidence, I have found very little that agrees with your faith as compared to "apostolic" Christian churches... You remember when, before you converted, mom would "inadvertently" nag you and -brother- about religion, especially the Catholic church? Well I am in the same boat as you were then, I guess. Why was the Catholic church right?? Why did it tell us to take communion and go through baptism and First Communion and all that when it was clearly NOT in the general Christian doctrine? Why did we believe that Mary appeared to several people; or that the Pope was always chosen by God, after having been in prayer and fasting for a period of time, and was finally announced? [Do not tell me we now know it is a fallacy, keep in mind the word "principle," please]

[Elphaba]

You mean like you treated others' opinions with graciousness in writing:

That kind of graciousness?

You're seriously accusing Moksha of not being gracious?

Sometimes I think he is the only person on this board who knows what the word means.

Satire. Look it up.

Elphaba

[bytor2112]

If the people here have truly been gracious, they sure have a funny way of showing it

Some, including myself have responded to your tone. You might re-read your posts and consider if you might be somewhat responsible for some of the sarcastic replies. Also, you conveniently ignore offered evidences and counters to your Biblical claims and site no scripture or source for any of your concerns, questions or counters. Perhaps, if you changed your tone and did some of these things, we could have a more productive discussion. Many of your claims regarding "traditional" Christianity are incorrect, yet you still continue. Many of your assertions about what we believe are incorrect or at least misunderstandings and frankly some of your comments regarding Joseph Smith and our beliefs are insulting.

If you are looking for Nephites and Lamanites, we may only be able to point you to cultures that may have been associated with them. Just as, if you need to see the Ark of the Covenant to believe that it existed or view Noah's Ark first hand, well, you may be out of luck.

Do you pray? If yes, why? Do you receive answers to your prayers? If not, why do you pray? Do you think prayer is necessary? How do you believe that God reveals himself and his eternal truths to mankind? In the form of the Biblical canon only or is he more personal than that? After all we are his children and the scriptures are full of evidence that we are indeed his children in the literal sense.

Edited April 16, 2009 by bytor2112

[bytor2112]

I was invited, you're right. For once. The reason I said we must agree to disagree isn't because I can't defend myself but because obviously we cannot agree on much and I have already wasted a good amount of time on here. I am not getting any answers whatsoever... my basic one was with faith alone put aside, what do you have to make you believe it?? Everyone just kinda dances around it but that's okay...

What we have that makes us believe is the Holy Spirit. Without it I would not believe. That is the honest answer....no dancing around here. Until you have received a witness of the truth from the Spirit, you will not understand, but, take it or leave it, that is the answer.