The Omnipotence of God

[Tarnished]

Recently my brother came out to visit, during his visit he decided to start an argument about the omnipotence of God. He argued that since God must follow rules then he is not all powerful, because if he was all powerful then he would not have to follow rules. And if he was all powerful then he wouldn’t let bad things happen on earth he could instead make everything perfect and wonderful. He arued that since God allows bad things to happen that he must be a wicked God.

To tell the truth his argument was not the best, but he blocked any argument I or my family brought up against him. It was aggravating and afterward I found myself wondering how others would have argued against him.

One reason I am asking this is because lately my father has been talking to my brother and has been bringing up arguments my brother has brought up, and as some of these topics have shown up on the forums we have had some great answers to give them. I am hoping to benefit from the knowledge that others can bring to this topic.

[TruthSeekerToo]

I wouldn't argue with your brother. I would just say something alongs the lines of "I'm sorry you feel that way" or that you respect his views but don't share them. I don't think he wants to change his mind or learn (from what you say). I'm betting he just diggs his heels in deeper for every come back you bring up.

Hopefully, others will have words of wisdom to share with your father.

[Tarnished]

I don't think he was digging his heels in, he likes to argue and he likes to create arguments. He will argue the sky is green just to get people arguing it. He will actually bring up a topic that he doesn't even believe just to get a "discussion" going. The problem is that he pushes his arguments so much that it is effecting my father's beliefs in what is right.

[threepercent]

he is correct in the sense that God has to follow law, and thus cannot make people happy in sin. but he is incorrect in that he can achieve any result he wants by following the law.

[HiJolly]

he is correct in the sense that God has to follow law, and thus cannot make people happy in sin. but he is incorrect in that he can achieve any result he wants by following the law.

This stuff has been debated over and over the centuries. Logical thought is meaningless because the beginning required predicates are impossible to get correct.

God set the universe up and created all things. He did it a certain way, establishing *His* laws that govern all things. It's not that He HAS to follow those laws, it's just that if He didn't He would be inconsistent, and He is not inconsistent.

HiJolly

[Finrock]

Recently my brother came out to visit, during his visit he decided to start an argument about the omnipotence of God. He argued that since God must follow rules then he is not all powerful, because if he was all powerful then he would not have to follow rules. And if he was all powerful then he wouldn’t let bad things happen on earth he could instead make everything perfect and wonderful. He arued that since God allows bad things to happen that he must be a wicked God.

To tell the truth his argument was not the best, but he blocked any argument I or my family brought up against him. It was aggravating and afterward I found myself wondering how others would have argued against him.

One reason I am asking this is because lately my father has been talking to my brother and has been bringing up arguments my brother has brought up, and as some of these topics have shown up on the forums we have had some great answers to give them. I am hoping to benefit from the knowledge that others can bring to this topic.

Hey Tarnished! I'm glad to meet you and I hope you are doing well today.

I'm sorry to read of your frustrations in dealing with your brother's concerns. I've definately experienced the same type of frustrations in the past. It's hard to hear people say things that you know are false, especially when it's a family member and you want so very much for them to have faith in God like you do.

I'm sure I don't have the best answer for you, but one thing I've learned from my experience is that you may not want to argue with your brother at all about this issue. In this months Ensign, President Eyring teaches a very valuable principle. I'll qoute the scripture President Eyring uses to make my point.

In Alma 31:5 it reads, "And now, as the preaching of the word had a great tendency to lead the people to do that which was just—yea, it had had more powerful effect upon the minds of the people than the sword, or anything else, which had happened unto them—therefore Alma thought it was expedient that they should try the virtue of the word of God”

In other words, Alma decided that he would teach doctrine to those who had so far been impervious to any other attempts to get them to change their minds or to act differently. Teaching doctrine is the tool that we have to help people gain faith. It is often taken for granted, but it has been shown in the scriptures, time and again, that it is hearing the word of God that produces faith and if nurished, this faith leads to a change of heart. Of course the person must be receptive to being taught. If they aren't, then there isn't much we can do but to offer to share our testimonies and our understanding of doctrine. However, we can try to help prepare people to listen. The Book of Mormon illustrates several ways that we can do this. One way is in Alma 17. This tells of when Ammon entered the land of Ishmael, he was bound and delivered before the Lamanite king. Now, Ammon's desire was to teach the Lamanites the gospel, but he didn't just brazenly start preaching to the king. Instead, he offered to be the king's servant. Thus, by serving the king, sincerely and faithfully, the Lamanite king's heart was softened and he eventually was willing to listen to Ammon's message. Through sincerely loving and serving the Lamanites, Ammon did much to help prepare them to receive his words.

In the same way, you may want to let your brother know in deeds and in words how much you care for him. Empathize with his concerns and try to understand where he is coming from. I'm certain that as you sincerely love your brother and show him kindness, you will have opportunities to teach him true gospel principles and share your testimony of things that you are certain of. I think, in the end, this will have a more profound effect on your brother than any argument or reasoning that can be stipulated to try and prove the omnipotence of God.

Kind Regards,

Finrock

[Just_A_Guy]

I would have just agreed with your brother. Yes, God is not exactly all powerful. But He's still way more powerful than anything else out there, He used that power to create us and the universe as we know it, He has sufficient power that His ultimate victory is assured, and it's still in our best interests to follow Him.

[Dr T]

Hello all,

His argument is really the "problem of evil" just worded a little differently. I guess what u need to do is to define what he means by "has to follow rules." I personally believe that God is bound by His nature such as not able to lie, etc. because of who He is. If he is talking about something else like not being able to create a square circle then that's just an absurdity and ought not be held up as really saying anything. I believe that God can do ALL things that are possibly done as long as they are consistent with His nature. To say he is not all powerful because he cannot cease to exist or become Satan, etc., is just silly. Anyway, those are my thoughts on that. Define your words and go from there with him.

[Hemidakota]

Recently my brother came out to visit, during his visit he decided to start an argument about the omnipotence of God. He argued that since God must follow rules then he is not all powerful, because if he was all powerful then he would not have to follow rules. And if he was all powerful then he wouldn’t let bad things happen on earth he could instead make everything perfect and wonderful. He arued that since God allows bad things to happen that he must be a wicked God.

To tell the truth his argument was not the best, but he blocked any argument I or my family brought up against him. It was aggravating and afterward I found myself wondering how others would have argued against him.

One reason I am asking this is because lately my father has been talking to my brother and has been bringing up arguments my brother has brought up, and as some of these topics have shown up on the forums we have had some great answers to give them. I am hoping to benefit from the knowledge that others can bring to this topic.

In adding to other comments, you simply cannot win using truths, personal wits, given knowledge, or what ever you can call it. Being closed minded, there is nothing that will convince your brother. I have even met some professors that held the same mental blockage problems, no matter the amount of evidence provided, they will simply dismiss it. The only way is do what the Savior did – speak the topic – offer any additional evidence when questioned – then depart when there is no more room for any real discussion; thus allowing the Holy Ghost to make that manifestation if possible to them that maybe attuned We need to mindful, including myself, of others cherished thoughts. Even if they are wrong, and, even if they do not desire for change of correction.

The thing about GOD's power is what? HONOR! Where does it come from? Is GOD truly not all powerful as your brother stated? If you looked back to the pre-mortal plan presented by the FATHER to HIS children, what did Lucifer offered? There are two keys within his offering that can answer the question. Take a moment of your time and reread Moses [read Book of Moses 4:1-4] again. Noticed some striking words? I will underlined them to help you in understanding of power and agency.

And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying-Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.

But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me-Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.

Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be east down;

And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice. (Moses 4:1-4.)

Addressing himself to the often-stated view in the Church that there were two plans presented at the Grand Council in Heaven, Elder Bruce R. McConkie wrote:

Who created and presented the plan of salvation as it was adopted in the pre-existent councils in heaven? Did Christ offer one plan which would allow men their agency, and Lucifer sponsor another founded on compulsion?

Although we sometimes hear it said that there were two plans-Christ's plan of freedom and agency, and Lucifer's of slavery and compulsion-such teaching does not conform to the revealed word. Christ did not present a plan of redemption and salvation nor did Lucifer. There were not two plans up for consideration; there was only one; and that was the plan of the Father: originated, developed, presented, and put in force by him....

The chief cornerstone of the whole plan was to be the atoning sacrifice of a Redeemer, one of the Father's spirit sons who was to be born into the world as his literal Son in the flesh. By this means was to be effected a resurrection, a reunion of body and spirit in immortality, the two never again to be separated.

Thus, the plan that was presented in this Grand Council was the Father's plan-instituted to "bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man" (read Moses 1:39). It was not a question of which plan the Father would accept to implement for his children on earth, but rather a question of whom he could send, as Savior and Redeemer of the world, to implement that plan. Even then, there was really no question.

So the question now is, what is HONOR and what or whom is this HONOR received?

It is true, GOD does follow eternal laws but HE is also the enforcer of such. HE is what HE is by not only a follower of such but also an enforcer of such.

To have honor, even in the midst of all intelligences [see Genesis chapter 1 thru 2] from the lowest order to HIS own children, this is the power of GOD. This what Satan desired the most - HONOR.

Implicit in Lucifer's demand for God's glory and honor was his plan for exaltation without effort. "I will exalt my throne [myself] above the stars of God," he declared. His declaration of self-exaltation exposed anew his jealousy of and resentment of Jesus the Redeemer. He would exalt himself without the redemptive blood of the great Jehovah. In his deluded and grandiose scheme of self-exaltation, he vainly imagined that he could, without the Savior's sacrifice, "redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost...I Will Redeem All Mankind"

Celestial Laws are eternal. I would to help to answer this by saying; it was before our own FATHER mortal birth.

Hopefully that helps.

Edited April 23, 2009 by Hemidakota

[rameumptom]

LDS believe in a God that is anthropomorphic. We are not created from nothing. God cannot create things out of thin air.

God did not create evil, nor is he responsible for it. His purpose is to create within his ability, and encourage those around him to join in an eternal love-fest.

If God was omnipotent, would it be more evil for him to allow evil to exist in order for others to grow and be tested; or to take away all evil and struggle, essentially wiping out all agency and free will, so his creations would all be automatons? I guess it depends on whether God is the Master Parent or the Master Tinkerer. A parent tries to coax and guide his children to good choices. A Master Tinkerer will mold a piece, and if it isn't to his liking, will scrap it and start over.

We are created from matter/intelligence that has always existed. God has no control over that. He takes of that intelligence and forms it into spirits, then later into mortal and then immortal beings. The process is to guide us as a parent, but we decide for ourselves how we will move forward into the eternities. We are not automatons, but agents, because we are not created from nothing by God.

Second, is it evil of God to allow bad things to happen, if those things are temporary and not eternal? If the struggles we go through help to exalt us, then are they not necessarily good for us in the long run? They only are evil if everything ends at death.

[Hemidakota]

Before I forget, Elder Orson Pratt wrote, Lucifer "considered that his plan was so good before the heavens, and so much superior to the plan that God had devised, said he, 'Surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor, which is the power of God.' That is, he sought to obtain the throne of the Almighty, and to carry out his own purposes in preference to yielding to the purposes and power of the Almighty."

Lucifer was seeking something that neither was nor ever could be his. Elder Orson F. Whitney affirmed that "this 'Son of the Morning' had become darkened to that degree that he demanded, in recompense for his proposed service, the honor and glory that belong only to the Highest. President J. Reuben Clark suggested that Satan wanted Heavenly Father to "abdicate," "disappear," "get out of the picture," so that he could "take over all the spirits in the great council and save them all."

Interesting thoughts of others.

[threepercent]

This stuff has been debated over and over the centuries. Logical thought is meaningless because the beginning required predicates are impossible to get correct.

God set the universe up and created all things. He did it a certain way, establishing *His* laws that govern all things. It's not that He HAS to follow those laws, it's just that if He didn't He would be inconsistent, and He is not inconsistent.

HiJolly

so.

Its quite clear to me that He must follow law to achieve his desires. just like if you want to fly a plane, you have to obey rules. you dont have to, but if you dont, you will crash or never get off the ground.

if he were to break the laws that make us happy, he would be unhappy as well, he dosnt want to be unhappy so he follows those laws.

its true that he has the capacity to break the law, but its not true that he can escape the consequences of it.

and really, thats a poor way to put it, because you really "cant" break the law, you just get different outcomes. crashing the plane is still all occurring within law. being unhappy is also just a lawful consequence.

[Justice]

I would just make 1 point.

God follows law by choice. He has agency and complete freedom to disobey law. He chooses not to, because He loves His children and knows there is no other way to perfect them... than by their choice to follow law.

[Snow]

Recently my brother came out to visit, during his visit he decided to start an argument about the omnipotence of God. He argued that since God must follow rules then he is not all powerful, because if he was all powerful then he would not have to follow rules. And if he was all powerful then he wouldn’t let bad things happen on earth he could instead make everything perfect and wonderful. He arued that since God allows bad things to happen that he must be a wicked God.

To tell the truth his argument was not the best, but he blocked any argument I or my family brought up against him. It was aggravating and afterward I found myself wondering how others would have argued against him.

One reason I am asking this is because lately my father has been talking to my brother and has been bringing up arguments my brother has brought up, and as some of these topics have shown up on the forums we have had some great answers to give them. I am hoping to benefit from the knowledge that others can bring to this topic.

Think about it this way: God possesses all power that there is to possess. That doesn't necessarily mean that God possesses all power that anyone could imagine.

For example, nobody (intelligent) thinks that God can cook a t-bone steak so large that he cannot eat it. Even though you can imagine it, it still isn't possible.

[deseretgov]

God must follow laws or else he would lose His power. God has power over this universe becasue He has power over the intelligences that are connected to the particles that make up the universe. If God were to lie or make an error the inteligences would see this and realise that they can now to whatever they want because God is doing whatever He wants. The intelligences would leave and go where ever they want and the entire universe would disolve.

Anyway. It's the same as the could God make something too heavy for Him to lift.

If God did whatever He wanted just because He is all powerful then He would lose His power. The reason God allowed evil on the earth is not because He is wicked or weak it is beacuse He is perfect. Only through allowing evil to happen can we progress. God's purpose isn't to create a perfect world where every one loves each other, where flowers fall from the sky and people walk on rainbows. God's purpose is to "bring to pass the imortality and eternal life of man." This means God's purpose is our progression to become like Him. Of course if you don't believe this then the entire thing goes out the window.

[Snow]

God must follow laws or else he would lose His power.

Do you have any evidence for that - other than you just typed the words?

[deseretgov]

The Meaning of the Atonement

From a talk by W. Cleon Skousen

[Tarnished]

I am very thankful to everyone's comments on this. I have read quite a few comments that help me sort things out a little bit better in my own head. Sometimes when I am "discussing" things with my brother it becomes difficult to gather all the thoughts running through my head dealing with the subjuct into a coheasive argument. There were a few posters that I hoped to see respond to this question and I am thankful to them for responding. I am actually quite grateful to this website in general as it brings up topics that we sometimes discuss as a family, and gives me insights on things that I would not have thought of. Thank you all again.

[Traveler]

Recently my brother came out to visit, during his visit he decided to start an argument about the omnipotence of God. He argued that since God must follow rules then he is not all powerful, because if he was all powerful then he would not have to follow rules. And if he was all powerful then he wouldn’t let bad things happen on earth he could instead make everything perfect and wonderful. He arued that since God allows bad things to happen that he must be a wicked God.

To tell the truth his argument was not the best, but he blocked any argument I or my family brought up against him. It was aggravating and afterward I found myself wondering how others would have argued against him.

One reason I am asking this is because lately my father has been talking to my brother and has been bringing up arguments my brother has brought up, and as some of these topics have shown up on the forums we have had some great answers to give them. I am hoping to benefit from the knowledge that others can bring to this topic.

There are a few ideas I would like to express:

First is a misconception that many have with laws and principles and discipline. There are two levels with which such things can be dealt with. The first level is the level whereby we are governed or controlled. Since many never progress past this level they do not understand laws, and discipline in any other manner. They are slaves to the laws that govern them. This is the level at which your brother is governed and since he is powerless to think beyond his sad state he assumes all intelligent beings are so governed and controlled by laws and principles.

There is a second level of dealing with laws and principles and discipline. That is to become a master of such things. Let me give a couple of examples with math and music. Math and music are governed by principles and laws. If you take a 2 year old and place them at a piano they so dominated by lack of knowledge and understanding that there is nothing worthwhile that they can accomplish. Likewise with math, an undisciplined child is incapable of solving many simple problems and thus nothing is accomplished.

As a person learns some principles they are able to do some things with music and math but still they are governed by the principles and laws and are only capable of copying others (if that) – This appears to me to be the highest level of intelligence your brother has ever accomplished.

Then there are the masters of music and math that are able to use the laws, principles and discipline to open up endless stores of beauty and knowledge. In music there is the Bach, Mozart and others that go beyond the mundane and use laws and principles to their advantage, not confinement. Also in math there is Laplace and others that unlock grand secrets with the laws and principles of math.

In short some are ruled by laws and principles and others are masters of such things and rule through and with laws and principles. And so it is with G-d all the laws, principles and rules are to his advantage. He is a master that utilizes truth as Mozart would utilize music or Einstein would utilize math and not be controlled or governed.

Evil is another matter that perhaps I can post at another time.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

Evil is something that does indeed exist. Most if not all of us have experienced evil in one form or another. One of the principles of G-d is that we learn the actual (actual meaning eternal) difference between good and evil. This G-d has set up in a grand libratory we call mortal life. It is a temporary experience where the difference between good and evil can be tested and experienced. But we must understand that the experiment is only temporary and thus the results of evil which is death ends the experiment. However, if we cannot see that this is only temporary we will become to think of G-d in a most dreadful manner.

Through the mercy of Jesus Christ man is allowed to experience evil without being forced into all the possible consequences; just enough that we have a real experience and thus able to realize the actual difference rather than just talking about it or theorizing about it. What is interesting that some having tasted evil will prefer evil to good and thus make every excuse to wallow and indulge in it.

The Traveler

[Snow]

The Meaning of the Atonement

From a talk by W. Cleon Skousen

You've misunderstood the question. I asked for evidence, not B.S. (Brother Skousen)

Asserting that something is true because somebody else said it is not the kind of evidence I am asking for.

[deseretgov]

That's material I used to base my opinion on. Sorry if you don't like that. You are free to form your own opinion that differs from mine.

I wont be upset if you ignore my wisdom and find your own path. jk

[Snow]

That's material I used to base my opinion on. Sorry if you don't like that. You are free to form your own opinion that differs from mine.

I wont be upset if you ignore my wisdom and find your own path. jk

I didn't think you had any evidence. Why didn't you just say so?

[deseretgov]

For me that is sufficient evidence to formulate my own opinon.

[Snow]

For me that is sufficient evidence to formulate my own opinon.

Odd that there is (you say) evidence, yet you can't say what it is. Is it secret?