Difference between Telestial and Terrestrial

[john doe]

This is the best thing I have heard. Can you teach me how to start a new thread? In the mean time I'll be looking. Thanks so much for your help.

:)

Yes, you click on the Forums button in the header. This will show a list of forums. Click the appropriate forum for your question, it will pull up a list of threads. You will find a button near the top left that says 'new thread'. Click it and you will be taken to a page to put your question.

[rockwoodchev]

It is better to repent by decision than to be compelled, but repentance is repentance.

I've never heard this before? Are you serious that it is better to repent by decisions than to be compelled to repent. Most of the stories of the BOM are about whole groups of people who were "brought to repentance".

Since when is there conditions put on how you repent? Wow... I'm truly blown away by this. Deeply offended.

[the Ogre]

. . . "brought to repentance" . . .

So . . . you are saying they were forced to repent? No free will? No opportunity to refuse?

[Justice]

Offended by what specifically?

When you were a kid did your parents ever "make" your sibling apologize?

Wouldn't it have been much better if s/he recognized the wrong and that you were hurt and apologized of his own free will?

I'm rather surprised you're offended that a person should apologize when they know they did wrong instead of being compelled.

The only reason those people in the BoM were brought to repentance is because they would not do it on their own. I thought that was the whole purpose? Had they chose to they could have prospered in the land instead of being attack repeatidly by their enemies.

Edited May 26, 2009 by Justice

[Justice]

Let me stop posting on this thread. If you think it will close and hijacking is going on, Maybe you can PM and tell me where I said it said that in the book of Mormon God was a man and we can be a God. I can prove, however, it is LDS doctrine so I don't know why the attempted denial on your part. I am done of this thread, but as usual my questions haven't been even slightly answered.

I don't know what I have to say to get you to see what I'm trying to say. I'll try 1 last time

aj4u, read very carefully.

All I asked you to do was read the Book of Mormon with a desire to know if it was true.

Instead of doing that, you went to an anti-Mormon site and found all kinds of stuff to use as ammunition.

Now, if you were *really* desirous to have a discussion with me, you would have read what I asked you to instead of venturing off into sites where people have no idea what they're talking about.

I don't want to talk about what the anti-Mormon sites are saying.

I want to talk about what it says in the Book of Mormon.

Now, once again, show me where it says "as God is now..." in the Book of Mormon and I'll talk about it.

To be crystal clear, I don't want to talk about what you read on anti-Mormon sites. And, if you aren't going to take the Book of Mormon seriously then we can't have a serious discussion about Christ, because nearly ALL Christians interpret the Bible differently.

I hope that I've been clear this time.

[Elphaba]

Are you wicked?

I am. Hence, the name "Elphaba."

Seroiusly though, what normal, sane person is knowingly wicked? In my opinion, to be wicked, human beings have to make a conscious attempt to truly be wicked. If they don't believe they, or their actions, are wicked . . . are they?

Perhaps that was your point?

[mikbone]

I am. Hence, the name "Elphaba."

Seroiusly though, what normal, sane person is knowingly wicked? In my opinion, to be wicked, human beings have to make a conscious attempt to truly be wicked. If they don't believe they, or their actions, are wicked . . . are they?

Perhaps that was your point?

Wow, I made that post back 3 weeks ago.

Yes. That is my point. Only those people who consciously trangress the Ten Commandments will be consigned to the Telestial Kingdom.

You ask a great question though. If they don't believe they, or their action, are wicked . . . are they? That is the basis for an insanity plea. Do you think that Hitler knew that he was breaking a commandment when he ordered genocide, or was he justified in his own mind? When Jeffery Dommer killed and ate his victims, did he understand that this was wrong? When King David ordered Uriah on a suicide mission did he realize what he was doing? I don't know... I do think that King David later realized that he had made a collossal mistake, but at the time when he made the order to send Uriah he didn't seem as concerned about his transgression.

There are wicked people in our midst, of this there is no doubt.

[aj4u]

I don't know what I have to say to get you to see what I'm trying to say. I'll try 1 last time

aj4u, read very carefully.

All I asked you to do was read the Book of Mormon with a desire to know if it was true.

Instead of doing that, you went to an anti-Mormon site and found all kinds of stuff to use as ammunition.

Now, if you were *really* desirous to have a discussion with me, you would have read what I asked you to instead of venturing off into sites where people have no idea what they're talking about.

I don't want to talk about what the anti-Mormon sites are saying.

I want to talk about what it says in the Book of Mormon.

Now, once again, show me where it says "as God is now..." in the Book of Mormon and I'll talk about it.

To be crystal clear, I don't want to talk about what you read on anti-Mormon sites. And, if you aren't going to take the Book of Mormon seriously then we can't have a serious discussion about Christ, because nearly ALL Christians interpret the Bible differently.

I hope that I've been clear this time.

I have not gone to an anti-Mormon site. This is the second time I have told you this!

[MikeUpton]

I have not gone to an anti-Mormon site. This is the second time I have told you this!

His point is not so much the anti mormon site, as much as it is that you are not being sincere.

[Justice]

I have not gone to an anti-Mormon site. This is the second time I have told you this!

Mike is correct, and for that reason...

I don't believe you.

You may not have within the last month or year, or maybe it wasn't specifically a web site. But, at some point in time you listened to those who are anti-Mormon.

This isn't a guess or an attempt to divert what you've been trying to discuss. I KNOW that if all you did was open the Book of Mormon with a sincere heart, you would NOT have those questions. Heck, you wouldn't even know what you know.

It's not a matter of believing what you say, when you say things like "as man is now..." it's a matter of me knowing the sources. If you spent enough of your own time studying enough to read those statements, then you have studied longer and harder than many LDS members.

Here's a challenge for you, and it can prove to me that you really have gained your knowledge of LDS beliefs of your own study. Without going to any other sites, books, letters, notes, or making any phone calls, list 10 things you agree with LDS doctrine on. Now, you can go to a site, consult your books or notes or whatever your source is, come back here list them and fool us, but you can't fool God.

What's in your heart?

[Pilgrim2]

Hello again....

I think one of my posts got lost in the shuffle... anyway... here goes:

- - - - - - -

It was suggested that the 3 levels (tel, ter, cel) are all a part of the new heaven and earth in Rev. 21. BUT the problem is that there is OPEN ACCESS between those places in 21:24-27, including access to the throne of God. BUT...D&C 76:112 says those in telestial glory cannot come to where God and Christ are. So we have a contradiction. D&C 88:18 shows the new earth be or have a celestial glory and the following verses say those who cannot abide that glory do not get it...but get another kingdom. There IS (according to Revelation) no other "kingdom".... it is name in book or name not on book. ???

My thought also is that there is no TIME when the 3 levels could be "open for business"... Alma 40:11-13 says it is two options when one dies... D&C 101:65-66 and Matt. 13:49 say it is two options when Christ returns, and the verses in Revelation (20 and 21) say it is two options at the Great White Throne judgment.

One can TRY to make "two" (new heaven and earth) into "three"... but the two are intereconnected so as to be in effect one... and that DOES make for a contradiction.

I'm not harping on this to be ornery. I am convinced that if Smith got this wrong he probably got the requirements wrong too. It is a BIG issue.

Pilgrim 2

[Hemidakota]

Pilgram2, if you are referring too the heavenly New Jerusalem, I would put down as a interruption issue. Now if you are quoting the following, I have someone who can help you to understand the the whole paragraph.

Revelation 21:24. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

25. And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

26. And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

27. And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination

From my friend Professor Richard Draper, who I consider the most informative professor in regards to the interruption of the Book of Revelation...

The great city has twelve gates—three to a side. Each gate is named in honor of one of the twelve tribes of Israel. In this aspect the city resembles the temple of Ezekiel (see 48:31-35). But there are differences. First, at each of John's gates stands an angel as sentinel. The prophet Brigham Young provided insight into the duty of these angels. Defining the endowment, he stated: "Your endowment is, to receive all those ordinances in the House of the Lord, which are necessary for you, after you have departed this life, to enable you to walk back to the presence of the Father, passing the angels who stand as sentinels, being enabled to give them the key words, the signs and tokens, pertaining to the Holy Priesthood, and gain your eternal exaltation in spite of earth and hell." Appropriately, these angels are placed at the gates of the celestial city, symbolizing that only those who have made and kept their covenants in God's holy house will enter his kingdom.

The second difference is that in Revelation the whole city is the sanctuary while in Ezekiel the temple alone is holy. Ezekiel's temple wall separated the sacred sanctuary from the profane city. The prophet was explicit in noting who could and could not come into the sanctuary (44:5-7). The wall marked the boundary line over which the unjustified could not pass. But with John, a dividing line would have been improper since all members of the city are holy.

Third, John's city sat on twelve foundation stones named after the apostles of the Lord, while no mention is made of the foundation in Ezekiel. Note that Paul in 1 Corinthians 12:28; Ephesians 2:20; 4:11 stresses that God's kingdom rests upon the quorum of Apostles. The repetition of number twelve in the stones and gates stands as a constant reminder of the priestly power that guards and envelops all aspects and operations of the holy city. This is seen especially in the measurement of the walls. John notes they are 144 cubits, after the measure of an angel. The size of an angelic cubit is unknown. What is important is the number—twelve squared—signifying the fullness of priesthood authority. This is what surrounds and stands as a great bulwark to the city.

John's knowledge of the dimensions of the city and its gates grows out of the measurements taken by an angel. The scene echoes Ezekiel 40:3-5 where an angel also does the measuring. John himself once performed a similar task under angelic direction. He was given a measuring rod to measure the temple (see chapter 11). The Seer's measuring of the temple's area signified that area's protection from judgment. Now he stands back and watches the angel do the work.

The golden rod of the angel, in contrast to John's rod of judgment, acts as a standard that demonstrates the city's purity. The city is four square, the same shape as the holy of holies, an exact cube, symbol of perfection and eternal stability. This suggests why the angel does the measuring. As great as John is, he is yet mortal and imperfect. The task of measuring the height, depth, and breadth of celestial perfection is beyond any mortal man's capability. This is emphasized by the city's size—12,000 furlongs (just short of 1,400 miles) in length, breadth, and (if it can be imagined) height. The term furlong (a distance of 220 yards) is used consistently in the KJV to translate the Greek stadion (a distance of 202.3 yards).

John uses the brilliance of precious stones to describe the limitless beauty of the city. The stones represent the twelve tribes of Israel. John's list of stones also corresponds to, but does not match, those found on the high priest's breast plate. Stones listed in Exodus are "first row shall be a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this shall be the first row. And the second row shall be an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond. And the third row a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst. And the fourth row a beryl, and an onyx, and a jasper: they shall be set in gold in their inclosings. And the stones shall be with the names of the children of Israel, twelve, according to their names, like the engravings of a signet; every one with his name shall they be according to the twelve tribes" (Ex. 28:17-21; cf. 39:10-14).

The Seer's arrangement is euphonic and emphasizes the division of four sets of three. All the stones end in the "s" sound except three. These all end in the "n" sound and are the last element in the first three sets. Thus the Greek reads, iaspis [jasper], sapphiros [sapphire], chalkedon[agate] (first set ending with an "n"), smaragdos [emerald], sardonux[onyx], sardon [carnelian] (second set ending with an "n"), chrusolithos[chrysolite], berullos [beryl], topazion [topaz] (thirdset ending with an "n"), chrusoprasos [chrysoprase], huacinthos[jacinth], amethystos [amethyst] (last set ending with an "s").

In his description of the city, the Seer is following a well-established Jewish tradition. Two of his contemporaries, Philo and Josephus, use much of the same language when they write about the divine community and its association with Israel. Both of John's contemporary writers see symbolic meaning within the jewels. For them the gates are the tribal heads of Israel, the jeweled foundation stones represent the community itself, the gemmed pinnacles represent the established leaders. Such descriptions of jeweled cities are not unique with the Jews; they may reach well back into antiquity, touching man's first glimpse of the heavenly community.

An important part of the walls are the twelve gates. John describes these as huge pearls. A perfect pearl in the mediterranean world was worth more than its weight in gold. The Savior's parable about a pearl of such value that a wealthy merchant would have to sell all he had to buy it was not much of an exaggeration. But it was probably the pearlescent luster, rather than the value, that caused the Seer to use it as an example of the portal.

John has not been the only one to see and attempt to describe such a gate. "The heavens were opened upon us," exulted Joseph Smith, "and I beheld the celestial kingdom of God, and the glory thereof, whether in the body or out I cannot tell. I saw the transcendent beauty of the gate through which the heirs of that kingdom will enter, which was like unto circling flames of fire" (D&C 137:1-2). John notes that these gates never shut (v. 25). They do not need to. The city is never in danger for the glory of God is there (cf. Isa. 60:11-13; D&C 45:67). Harmony, peace, security, and joy dominate not only the city, but also the entire sphere in which it dwells.

What is surprising about the heavenly city is the Seer's statement that "I saw no temple therein" (v. 22, KJV). Both the heavenly tabernacle and temple have been center stage in a number of visions up to this point. Now, as John beholds the eternal and celestial realm, the temple is not to be found. Where did it go? Earthly temples will dot the lands during the millennial era preparing men and women for the celestial kingdom. "When that glorious goal is gained," states Elder McConkie, "heaven itself becomes a temple. The holy of holies in the Lord's earthly houses are symbols and types of the Eternal Holy of Holies which is the highest heaven of the celestial world." The lack of a visible temple emphasizes the idea that the work is completed and perfected. Nothing has been left undone.

To this universal seat of government, the exalted priest-kings of the celestial earth will bring honor and glory. From this seat will flow the power in which the heavenly nations will walk. Thus we see that the new earth, one of the imposing celestial suns, will have its own capitol whose glory the whole planet will radiate as a grand stainless mirror for all worlds to see and reverence.

CONCLUSION

John follows an Old Testament theme in which the ideal heaven is local and earthly. The celestial realm is not beyond this earth but is the earth itself in a sanctified state. A misunderstanding of this very principle was what fueled a number of politico-religious uprisings that occurred during and after the time of the Lord. Many of these are chronicled in Josephus' work on the Jewish wars. To this very earth, the Father will come, and from this very earth, the Son will direct the affairs of the cosmos.

Because Gods will dwell here, the whole must be pure. An angel made this point very clear to Enoch: "Teach it unto your children, that all men, everywhere, must repent, or they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God, for no unclean thing can dwell there, . . . for, in the language of Adam, Man of Holiness is his name" (Moses 6:57). In this light, John's concluding statement can be appreciated: "There shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life" (v. 27, KJV).

[Pilgrim2]

[because Gods will dwell here, the whole must be pure. An angel made this point very clear to Enoch: "Teach it unto your children, that all men, everywhere, must repent, or they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God, for no unclean thing can dwell there, . . . for, in the language of Adam, Man of Holiness is his name" (Moses 6:57). In this light, John's concluding statement can be appreciated: "There shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life" (v. 27, KJV).

- - - - - - - -

Thank you for the lengthy explanation, but my basic question was not answered...because the man you quoted was not addressing my question. If I missed it....spell it out simply for me. To repeat:

D & C 76:112 indicates that Telestial glory people will NOT be seeing God or Christ. We have no gates in this city between the new heaven and earth...people going from one to the other... and statements that God is in both the new heaven and earth with his people (21:1-4). Since the choices are name in book or name not in book .... where will the telestial glory people be at this time?....or ANY time? The earth will (according to D&C 88) have a celestial glory... so where will tel. glory people be?

Pilgrim 2

[the Ogre]

. . . The earth will (according to D&C 88) have a celestial glory... so where will tel. glory people be?

Pilgrim 2

Has a specific location ever been revealed? Nope. All we know is that the earth will be celestialized.

[Pilgrim2]

Has a specific location ever been revealed? Nope. All we know is that the earth will be celestialized.

- - - - - - -

Yes.... the whole point is that SPECIFIC LOCATIONS HAVE BEEN REVEALED.... if your name is in the book....it will be the new heaven and celestialized earth (point of agreement on this). If your name is NOT in the book...it will be the lake of fire. You simply need to tell me... are the telestial glory people among those whose names ARE or ARE NOT

in the book?:)

[the Ogre]

- - - - - - -

Yes.... the whole point is that SPECIFIC LOCATIONS HAVE BEEN REVEALED.... if your name is in the book....it will be the new heaven and celestialized earth (point of agreement on this). If your name is NOT in the book...it will be the lake of fire. You simply need to tell me... are the telestial glory people among those whose names ARE or ARE NOT

in the book?:)

Name in the book, but with a different address. I think what you are trying to ask is if going to the Telestial or Terrestrial kingdoms equates salvation.

I think it is an argument of semantics. Some will say, if one did not get outer-darkness they earned salvation. Others will say anything not the highest degree of the celestial kingdom equals damnation. Others will take moderate positions between the two. The interesting part of your question is: will those in the Telestial kingdom be living on Mars? The Moon? Inner core of the Sun?

Edited May 27, 2009 by the Ogre

[Pilgrim2]

Name in the book, but with a different address. I think what you are trying to ask is if going to the Telestial or Terrestrial kingdoms equates salvation.

I think it is an argument of semantics. Some will say, if one did not gat outer-darkness they earned salvation. Others will say anything not the highest degree of the celestial kingdom equals damnation. Others will take moderate positions between the two. The interesting part of your question is: will those in the Telestial kingdom be living on Mars? The Moon? Inner core of the Sun?

Semantics? If you say name in book...what it SAYS is new heaven and earth.... N O T some other address!!! You can say it is NOT new heaven and earth for them (tel glory) ...but the Bible says it IS if the name is in the book. Come on....you can't have it both ways. Thanks for a lesson in doubletalk. It is obvious to me that those other 2 "glories" are make believe. You can try to fit them in-between the "name in book" and "name not in book"...but it just doesn't work.

Pilgrim2

[the Ogre]

. . . It is obvious to me that those other 2 "glories" are make believe . . .

Not unless they are LDS doctrine. BTW: there is tons in this thread to show the veracity of these two kingdoms as a part of our belief system.

Don't believe me or do, I don't care. I wonder if the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms will coexist on the earth as separate dimensions? Now that is some real make-belief.

Edited May 27, 2009 by the Ogre

[bytor2112]

Semantics? If you say name in book...what it SAYS is new heaven and earth.... N O T some other address!!! You can say it is NOT new heaven and earth for them (tel glory) ...but the Bible says it IS if the name is in the book. Come on....you can't have it both ways. Thanks for a lesson in doubletalk. It is obvious to me that those other 2 "glories" are make believe. You can try to fit them in-between the "name in book" and "name not in book"...but it just doesn't work.

Pilgrim2

We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

It is obvious that you don't agree with our replies.......but comments like "It is obvious to me that those other 2 "glories" are make believe....are simply uncalled for and frankly rude.

I think the disconnect is interpretation.......and your dogged determination to object to our interpretation, which is fine, but try a bit harder to understand.

[Hemidakota]

[because Gods will dwell here, the whole must be pure. An angel made this point very clear to Enoch: "Teach it unto your children, that all men, everywhere, must repent, or they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God, for no unclean thing can dwell there, . . . for, in the language of Adam, Man of Holiness is his name" (Moses 6:57). In this light, John's concluding statement can be appreciated: "There shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life" (v. 27, KJV).

- - - - - - - -

Thank you for the lengthy explanation, but my basic question was not answered...because the man you quoted was not addressing my question. If I missed it....spell it out simply for me. To repeat:

D & C 76:112 indicates that Telestial glory people will NOT be seeing God or Christ. We have no gates in this city between the new heaven and earth...people going from one to the other... and statements that God is in both the new heaven and earth with his people (21:1-4). Since the choices are name in book or name not in book .... where will the telestial glory people be at this time?....or ANY time? The earth will (according to D&C 88) have a celestial glory... so where will tel. glory people be?

Pilgrim 2

D&C 76:112 is correct. This is from my own personal insight. As this world is currently residing in a telestial state solar system. When it becomes a terrestrial orb, this earth needs to be move to that state. This means, those who will abide in that sphere will left behind and not allowed into the terrestrial or celestial state. Even when the earth is moved to the celestial area, those of the terrestrial level will not be allowed to remain with this orb.

Telestial Kingdom = Holy Ghost

Terrestrial Kingdom = Holy Ghost, Savior

Celestial Kingdom = Holy Ghost, Savior, GOD

When the Earth becomes a Celestial orb, there is no need for a symbolic gate to enter into the celestial state since the orb will be residing with other celestial orbs.

However, I will look at the references an apply some simplicity for you...

Edited May 27, 2009 by Hemidakota

[Hemidakota]

After lengthy reading, let me see if I got it right. You want to know where those who are assigned to the Telestial Kingdom will be located?

What time is it in your area? If the Sun is still up, then step outside and look at the Sun....that is the answer.

[Pilgrim2]

Not unless they are LDS doctrine. BTW: there is tons in this thread to show the veracity of these two kingdoms as a part of our belief system.

Don't believe me or do, I don't care. I wonder if the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms will coexist on the earth as separate dimensions? Now that is some real make-belief.

- - - - - - - - - - -

There is also "tons" of evidence for karma/ reincarnation/virgins given to men in the afterlife for being suicide terrorists.... IF you choose to believe in those particuclar revelations.

Tons.... does not cut it. If I must turn the Bible into a fairy tale in order to buy the LDS view.... I'll not do it. It should be the reverse, because the Bible has proven itself (via fulfilled prophecies). I do not believe in a God who doubletalks... the LDS view in essence is saying that one plus one equals two and also three or more. Sorry... I'm not buying that. You folks claim to have 4 standard works but any time your modern revelations contradict the Bible... it is the Bible that is tossed out. That is very dangerous....to put it mildly.

There can be no other options than name in book and name not in book...and therefore there are no other destinations than stated... lake of fire... new heaven and earth... You can pussy-foot around it...but that is what the Bible says.

The funny thing is that some of your OWN revelations deny the 3 degrees of glory teaching... I've studied this out.... this is what I found.

II Nephi 15:34-35 kingdom of God or an awful, filthy hell

II Nephi 2:27 liberty and eternal life or captivity and eternal death

Mosiah 2:39-41 never-ending happiness or never-ending torment

Mosiah 5:5, 15 heaven, everlasting life,or under the wrath of God in eternal torment

Mos. 15:21-27 redeemed, with God, or perishing in sins

Alma 42:16 happiness or punishment (ETERNAL)

Helaman 12:26 everlasting life or everlasting damnation

Note that D&C 20:9, 27:5 refers to the Book of Mormon as the FULLNESS of the gospel. This makes "3 heavens" a significant omission!

DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS

D&C 29:27-28, 43-44 eternal life or eternal damnation

D&C 43:25,33, 63:49, 54 eternal life or unquenchable fire

D&C 101:65-67 Celestial glory vs. unquenchable fire

(Note... this key passage was written AFTER the original major revelation of the teaching of 3 heavens... so which is it?)

PEARL OF GREAT PRICE

Moses 6:29 and 59 kingdom of heaven or death and hell

Moses 7:57-67 fullness of joy or chains of darkness

1 No Bible verses teach more than 2 destinations for mankind. Its consistent story is the traditional heaven/hell, although it could more precisely be referred to as hell followed by the lake of fire vs. the new heaven and earth as the two choices (There will be free access between the new heaven and earth, and all have access to the throne of God. See Rev. 21:24-27)

2. The Book of Mormon does not teach the 3 heavens theory.

3. Nor does the Pearl of Great Price teach three heavens, but two destinations.

4. While the Doctrine and Covenants does refer to the 3 heavens in 3 places... other places in D & C say the opposite. And one main revelation (D&C 88) was a part of a larger revelation, a part of which was proven to be false. Church History, Vol. 2, pp. 380-381. Joseph Smith said he saw in a vision of the CELESTIAL kingdom “the (current) 12 apostles of the Lamb who are now upon the earth.” Did these apostles ever inherit the Celestial kingdom? History of the Church later records the apostasy and final excommunication of 5 of the 12 apostles referred to in this vision:

Lyman Johnson Vol. 3:20

Luke Johnson - Vol. 2:528

William McLellin - Vol. 3:31

William Smith - Vol. 7:483

Thomas Marsh - Vol. 4:284

SO>>>>>it would appear that to gain celestial glory....you can be excommunicated.... or not. If THIS was a false vision....perhaps the whole of Smith's 3 degrees of glory "revelation" was also false.

Pilgrim2

[Hemidakota]

Pilgrim did you step outside this morning to witness the Sun? :)

The Prophet is correct on this doctrine of degrees of glory. From where I stand, there is a heaven [celestial kingdom] and a hell [anything less than the celestial kingdom]. Why? When we know what lies within the celestial glory and not allowed to be partakers there of, it would be an hell for us. Any of the former prophets/righteous Saints probably thought the same.

[Hemidakota]

- - - - - - - - - - -

There is also "tons" of evidence for karma/ reincarnation/virgins given to men in the afterlife for being suicide terrorists.... IF you choose to believe in those particuclar revelations.

Tons.... does not cut it. If I must turn the Bible into a fairy tale in order to buy the LDS view.... I'll not do it. It should be the reverse, because the Bible has proven itself (via fulfilled prophecies). I do not believe in a God who doubletalks... the LDS view in essence is saying that one plus one equals two and also three or more. Sorry... I'm not buying that. You folks claim to have 4 standard works but any time your modern revelations contradict the Bible... it is the Bible that is tossed out. That is very dangerous....to put it mildly.

There can be no other options than name in book and name not in book...and therefore there are no other destinations than stated... lake of fire... new heaven and earth... You can pussy-foot around it...but that is what the Bible says.

The funny thing is that some of your OWN revelations deny the 3 degrees of glory teaching... I've studied this out.... this is what I found.

II Nephi 15:34-35 kingdom of God or an awful, filthy hell

II Nephi 2:27 liberty and eternal life or captivity and eternal death

Mosiah 2:39-41 never-ending happiness or never-ending torment

Mosiah 5:5, 15 heaven, everlasting life,or under the wrath of God in eternal torment

Mos. 15:21-27 redeemed, with God, or perishing in sins

Alma 42:16 happiness or punishment (ETERNAL)

Helaman 12:26 everlasting life or everlasting damnation

Note that D&C 20:9, 27:5 refers to the Book of Mormon as the FULLNESS of the gospel. This makes "3 heavens" a significant omission!

DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS

D&C 29:27-28, 43-44 eternal life or eternal damnation

D&C 43:25,33, 63:49, 54 eternal life or unquenchable fire

D&C 101:65-67 Celestial glory vs. unquenchable fire

(Note... this key passage was written AFTER the original major revelation of the teaching of 3 heavens... so which is it?)

PEARL OF GREAT PRICE

Moses 6:29 and 59 kingdom of heaven or death and hell

Moses 7:57-67 fullness of joy or chains of darkness

1 No Bible verses teach more than 2 destinations for mankind. Its consistent story is the traditional heaven/hell, although it could more precisely be referred to as hell followed by the lake of fire vs. the new heaven and earth as the two choices (There will be free access between the new heaven and earth, and all have access to the throne of God. See Rev. 21:24-27)

2. The Book of Mormon does not teach the 3 heavens theory.

3. Nor does the Pearl of Great Price teach three heavens, but two destinations.

4. While the Doctrine and Covenants does refer to the 3 heavens in 3 places... other places in D & C say the opposite. And one main revelation (D&C 88) was a part of a larger revelation, a part of which was proven to be false. Church History, Vol. 2, pp. 380-381. Joseph Smith said he saw in a vision of the CELESTIAL kingdom “the (current) 12 apostles of the Lamb who are now upon the earth.” Did these apostles ever inherit the Celestial kingdom? History of the Church later records the apostasy and final excommunication of 5 of the 12 apostles referred to in this vision:

Lyman Johnson Vol. 3:20

Luke Johnson - Vol. 2:528

William McLellin - Vol. 3:31

William Smith - Vol. 7:483

Thomas Marsh - Vol. 4:284

SO>>>>>it would appear that to gain celestial glory....you can be excommunicated.... or not. If THIS was a false vision....perhaps the whole of Smith's 3 degrees of glory "revelation" was also false.

Pilgrim2

I am beginning to see how easily it is for you to find fault and not the truth in all things. Instead in depending on your own wisdom, why not apply that to prayer in seeking answers from the source itself?

Your last statement is an assumption by your own lack of understanding a simple vision since he stated the 12...which 12? Current? Did not state that...there are many quorum of 12s. It is no more than the original called quorum by the Master Himself. Yes, even one of them willfully transgressed. Now, is the Savior wrong in showing this vision with Judas? Go figure…this is using your logic now. My friend, your own ignorance is a major downfall and without the guide of the Holy Ghost in your own life, it will be [displaying arrogance] force to reckon with when you cross the veil and finding yourself on the left-hand of GOD.

[the Ogre]

I've studied this out.... this is what I found.

Interesting that you missed the part about Modern Revelation. But why would anyone care what you have to say when you are merely cutting and pasting from the work of anti-mormons. I've pointed out that I don't like apologetics, well I dislike skeptics as well. Both pursue a fool's gold.

You sound just like aj4u. Maybe you are his little sock-puppet (look, ma, no strings), or maybe you know him. Perhaps his name is "Gorgeous George" and yours is "Pretty Penny." Tag teaming the amateur circuit before you can get to the pros and pasteurize the masses in Mongolia (where if you haven't heard, we just organized a stake).

Are you here to save a bunch of dirty cultists or are you here merely for the scrap?

Edited May 28, 2009 by the Ogre