Why some men are not saved?

[Justice]

I have a few questions primarily meant for the non-LDS members of this forum, but all are welcome to participate.

If the works of Christ (atonement, death, and resurrection) are enough to save every man, as stand alone works, why are some men not saved?

It is not my intention to ask a misleading or trick question. If you feel the question could be worded better, please revise the question then answer it with what you believe to be true, keeping the original intent of the question.

(Note: Let's skip over the differences we have about the afterlife, whether just heaven and hell or many kingdoms of glory. Let's just assume, for the sake of this discussion, that being "saved" means saved from the lake of fire or outer darkness.)

So, read the question (in bold) and reply with what you believe is the truth. Posting some scriptures that state your beliefs would be helpful. We'll get to the other questions after we've discussed this one.

[JohnnyRudick]

I have a few questions primarily meant for the non-LDS members of this forum, but all are welcome to participate.

If the works of Christ (atonement, death, and resurrection) are enough to save every man, as stand alone works, why are some men not saved?

It is not my intention to ask a misleading or trick question. If you feel the question could be worded better, please revise the question then answer it with what you believe to be true, keeping the original intent of the question.

(Note: Let's skip over the differences we have about the afterlife, whether just heaven and hell or many kingdoms of glory. Let's just assume, for the sake of this discussion, that being "saved" means saved from the lake of fire or outer darkness.)

So, read the question (in bold) and reply with what you believe is the truth. Posting some scriptures that state your beliefs would be helpful. We'll get to the other questions after we've discussed this one.

My off the cuff addition to consider is not to forget the "Who so ever will" type conditions in the Bible;-)

Peace:p

Bro. Rudick

[Moksha]

A wild guess, but could it be that less men will be saved so the pool of available Celestial wives will increase?

[Aesa]

We can do all we want to try and be saved, but ultimately it's up to God as He is the judge of us.

[the Ogre]

A wild guess, but could it be that less men will be saved so the pool of available Celestial wives will increase?

Oh yeah, baby . . . that's what I'm waiting for!!!!

Kinda like the 72 virgins bit with Islam.

(alright, all you other dudes, start smoking right now . . . your bishop doesn't know what he's talking about!!!)

[JohnnyRudick]

A wild guess, but could it be that less men will be saved so the pool of available Celestial wives will increase?

That'll work:D

Sounds good to me:p

Bro, Rudick

[JohnnyRudick]

We can do all we want to try and be saved, but ultimately it's up to God as He is the judge of us.

Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time

Christ died for the ungodly.

Romans 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet

peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that,

while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we

shall be saved from wrath through him.

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to

God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we

shall be saved by his life.

Romans 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our

Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the

world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for

that all have sinned:

Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is

not imputed when there is no law.

Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even

over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's

transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Romans 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift.

For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the

grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus

Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Romans 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the

gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free

gift is of many offences unto justification.

Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one;

much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift

of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came

upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one

the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made

sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Doctrine and Covenants 49:5 Thus saith the Lord; for I am God,

and have sent mine Only Begotten Son into the world for the

redemption of the world, and have decreed that he that receiveth

him shall be saved, and he that receiveth him not shall be

damned--

Bro. Rudick

[prisonchaplain]

I have a few questions primarily meant for the non-LDS members of this forum, but all are welcome to participate.

If the works of Christ (atonement, death, and resurrection) are enough to save every man, as stand alone works, why are some men not saved?

Jesus answers this question in the parable of the Farmer who sows seeds. He says that some seed lands on hard soil, gains no root at all, is is mostly eaten by birds. This represents those who hear the gospel and reject it outright.

Other seeds land on rocky soil. The seed takes root, quickly sprout, but since the roots are shallow, when the first harsh weather comes, they are destroyed. This represents those who initially accept the gospel, but, once there is a price to pay, or God disappoints by not meeting some demand, they leave.

Then there is the seed that takes good root, but becomes choked by weeds and thorns. This represents those who accept the gospel, and seem to grow in it. However, over time worldly concerns become paramount, and they gradually fade away (become inactive???).

So, the three reasons why someone may not be saved, those Christ's work itself is sufficient, are: rejection of the gospel, thoughtless and shallow acceptance of the gospel, and neglect of the gospel once received.

[JohnnyRudick]

Jesus answers this question in the parable of the Farmer who sows seeds. He says that some seed lands on hard soil, gains no root at all, is is mostly eaten by birds. This represents those who hear the gospel and reject it outright.

Other seeds land on rocky soil. The seed takes root, quickly sprout, but since the roots are shallow, when the first harsh weather comes, they are destroyed. This represents those who initially accept the gospel, but, once there is a price to pay, or God disappoints by not meeting some demand, they leave.

Then there is the seed that takes good root, but becomes choked by weeds and thorns. This represents those who accept the gospel, and seem to grow in it. However, over time worldly concerns become paramount, and they gradually fade away (become inactive???).

So, the three reasons why someone may not be saved, those Christ's work itself is sufficient, are: rejection of the gospel, thoughtless and shallow acceptance of the gospel, and neglect of the gospel once received.

I just sit back and I know someone will most likely come up with a good answer.

I get so. tempted to just "jump in" and get involved.

Just look at you guys:)

I have no idea where some of these people get the idea that we have no people of knowledge here.

Bro. Rudick

Saves a lot of work.

[Guest]

I have a few questions primarily meant for the non-LDS members of this forum, but all are welcome to participate.

If the works of Christ (atonement, death, and resurrection) are enough to save every man, as stand alone works, why are some men not saved?

It is not my intention to ask a misleading or trick question. If you feel the question could be worded better, please revise the question then answer it with what you believe to be true, keeping the original intent of the question.

(Note: Let's skip over the differences we have about the afterlife, whether just heaven and hell or many kingdoms of glory. Let's just assume, for the sake of this discussion, that being "saved" means saved from the lake of fire or outer darkness.)

So, read the question (in bold) and reply with what you believe is the truth. Posting some scriptures that state your beliefs would be helpful. We'll get to the other questions after we've discussed this one.

The works of Christ gave every man a RESURRECTION. People can call that being "saved".

Justice, from my Catholic background...

We were taught in Catholic school that if we just believe in Christ we attain eternal life... comes from the scripture "whosoever believeth in Him shalt not perish...". Because, the assumption was that once you have faith in Christ, there is but one conclusion and that is that you will do good works. It is kinda like if you believe in being Healthy, there is no possible way you are going to do drugs, or put junk in your body. Does this make any sense to you?

Anyway, from the same Catholic background, some people do not accept Christ, or they do and then lose it later. These guys attain resurrection but end up in hell. Of course, there's this place the Catholics call purgatory where everybody who never heard of Christ goes to.

Edited May 17, 2009 by anatess

[Justice]

Aesa, thank you for responding. My question to you is, did God give us the criteria He will use to judge us by? Or, do you believe we go into judgement blind, hoping for a good result?

Thank you for your comments, PC. That is one of my favorite scriptures on the topic.

anatess, the comment you made that stood out to me was this:

We were taught in Catholic school that if we just believe in Christ we attain eternal life... comes from the scripture "whosoever believeth in Him shalt not perish...". Because, the assumption was that once you have faith in Christ, there is but one conclusion and that is that you will do good works.

The Book of Mormon repeats this teaching that all we have to do is believe in Jesus Christ.

Helaman 14:

8 And it shall come to pass that whosoever shall believe on the Son of God, the same shall have everlasting life.

But, it also goes on to clarify what it means by "believe."

Helaman 14:

13 And if ye believe on his name ye will repent of all your sins, that thereby ye may have a remission of them through his merits.

So, he clarifies that there is more intended in the word believe than "just" believe. It is something that drives you to something, like in your comment:

there is but one conclusion and that is that you will do good works.

This is the part I'd like to discuss. I wonder if all who believe in Christ will produce good works.

James 2:

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

This scripture seems to be implying that just because someone believes in Christ, they won't necessarily produce faith or good works.

What is your comment to this line of thinking?

[Traveler]

Jesus answers this question in the parable of the Farmer who sows seeds. He says that some seed lands on hard soil, gains no root at all, is is mostly eaten by birds. This represents those who hear the gospel and reject it outright.

Other seeds land on rocky soil. The seed takes root, quickly sprout, but since the roots are shallow, when the first harsh weather comes, they are destroyed. This represents those who initially accept the gospel, but, once there is a price to pay, or God disappoints by not meeting some demand, they leave.

Then there is the seed that takes good root, but becomes choked by weeds and thorns. This represents those who accept the gospel, and seem to grow in it. However, over time worldly concerns become paramount, and they gradually fade away (become inactive???).

So, the three reasons why someone may not be saved, those Christ's work itself is sufficient, are: rejection of the gospel, thoughtless and shallow acceptance of the gospel, and neglect of the gospel once received.

Sometimes I do not think I agree with you PC only to find out later that we really do agree but something was not communicated. In this case I think you have misunderstood the teaching of Christ. The reason that the seed did not grow was for reasons (in the soil) that existed long before the seed was sown. The soil that was not prepared (with toil and labor – indirectly related to works) to soften, remove rocks and weeds from the soil so that the seed may have place is the reason that it failed to grow.

Jesus is asking us to prepare ourselves to hear his teachings. In some cases that work of preparation requires more work or labor than others. Some have more difficult challenges to prepare themselves for the seed but prepare we must. I also submit that if we have not prepared our soil that what is growing in our soil is not the seed but a weed sown by a deceiver that will continue to grow without effort and prevent one from being ready for the good seed.

I believe the scriptures are clear - the works of Christ (atonement, death, and resurrection) are enough to save every man, who have labored and worked to receive the good word, Not preparing is why are some men are not saved.

The Traveler

[Moksha]

It seems comforting to consider salvation as being as universalistic as possible.

[prisonchaplain]

This scripture seems to be implying that just because someone believes in Christ, they won't necessarily produce faith or good works.

What is your comment to this line of thinking?

Faith does produce good works, and is defined as believing in Jesus. What the demons do is RECOGNIZE Jesus. We "believers," ALIGN ourselves with him. Those who do no works have no faith. But it is the faith that produces works.

[prisonchaplain]

Traveler, perhaps the preparatory work that leads to converted souls is meant to be done by the church, the harvesters, the workers, the laborers in the field, rather than by the one to be converted? Evangelization, missions, gospel proclammation, and our own good works that exemplify Christ to a lost and dying world.

[Justice]

Faith does produce good works, and is defined as believing in Jesus. What the demons do is RECOGNIZE Jesus. We "believers," ALIGN ourselves with him. Those who do no works have no faith. But it is the faith that produces works.

Yes, in essence works is a component of faith.

If faith without works is dead, then it can't be the other way around. It is true that works performed without faith in Christ are not consecrated, but the scriptures clearly teach works are a component of faith, and therefore you cannot have faith without them.

Maybe it's semmantics.

But, I do like that you recognize there is more to be understood about belief as meant meant in the scriptures... specifically what it means to believe in Christ. I don't see how it can be any other way.

[prisonchaplain]

Yes, in essence works is a component of faith.

I hate to dissect and quibble over seemingly fine points, but I would argue that works are not a component of faith, but rather a product of it. They are an outcome. Further, it is certainly possible to produce works in other ways. So, while good works can be a sign of faith, they might also be the product of discipline, of a desire to please, or simply of good upbringing.

If faith without works is dead, then it can't be the other way around. It is true that works performed without faith in Christ are not consecrated, but the scriptures clearly teach works are a component of faith, and therefore you cannot have faith without them.

IMHO you are putting the cart before the horses.

Maybe it's semmantics.

But, I do like that you recognize there is more to be understood about belief as meant meant in the scriptures... specifically what it means to believe in Christ. I don't see how it can be any other way.

We definitely agree that faith/belief is more than intellectual assent, and that conversion, if it is real, is more than attaining "fire insurance" (Get out of Hell Free card).

[Traveler]

Traveler, perhaps the preparatory work that leads to converted souls is meant to be done by the church, the harvesters, the workers, the laborers in the field, rather than by the one to be converted? Evangelization, missions, gospel proclammation, and our own good works that exemplify Christ to a lost and dying world.

That just is not how I see things. All the labor of good works, proclaiming the gospel and the works of the ministry are external – as I interpret the parable of the sower; such things as examples, teaching the good word and the ministry are all parts of sowing the seed and are not the responsibility of an individual. The difference is not in the seed but in the preparation of the soil and only an individual can prepare their soil. Some are too angry (harden from being stepped on by others), some are too selfish and critical (soil with rocks that have not been removed), and some are too prideful and sinful (overcome with weeds). I believe Jesus is making an appeal to individuals to prepare themselves for the seed. There are some who’s soil is so un-kept that if the L-rd Jesus Christ himself should walk among them and teach them the seed would not take root enough to bear fruit.

In the end it is the unprepared soil (fault of the individual) and not the sower nor the seed (others or the L-rd) that prevents anyone from partaking of the richest gifts of G-d. How could it be the error of G-d or his servants? Why would any doctrine blame the L-rd or his servants? This is why I believe the L-rd will hold those that claim to be his servants to a higher standard than anyone else. If they are his servants they would be subject to his standards as he is – or I doubt that they are known to him as his servants.

The Traveler

[Vort]

A wild guess, but could it be that less men will be saved so the pool of available Celestial wives will increase?

That'll work:D

Sounds good to me:p

As the father of sons whom I love just as much as my daughters, I must respond that it certainly does not sound good to me. It sounds hellish and vomitous.

Yeah, I know, Moksha and Johnny were just funnin'. Ha ha ha. Fewer men will be saved so those who "make it" can have more sex with lots of different women throughout eternity. That's just riotous.

[Hemidakota]

I have a few questions primarily meant for the non-LDS members of this forum, but all are welcome to participate.

If the works of Christ (atonement, death, and resurrection) are enough to save every man, as stand alone works, why are some men not saved?

It is not my intention to ask a misleading or trick question. If you feel the question could be worded better, please revise the question then answer it with what you believe to be true, keeping the original intent of the question.

(Note: Let's skip over the differences we have about the afterlife, whether just heaven and hell or many kingdoms of glory. Let's just assume, for the sake of this discussion, that being "saved" means saved from the lake of fire or outer darkness.)

So, read the question (in bold) and reply with what you believe is the truth. Posting some scriptures that state your beliefs would be helpful. We'll get to the other questions after we've discussed this one.

The question to ask yourself, why is it that we assume by taking out our temple endowments, have callings in the church, attend our meetings, and have appropriate level of faith, most are still not called as Joseph Smith [meaning - calling of election]?

Edited May 18, 2009 by Hemidakota

[AnthonyB]

If you maintain that God created people with free will (agency) then IMHO the choice not to be saved must exist at least as a possibility.

For universal salvation to be truly universal in a realm of creatures with free-will, it has to deal with those who choose no to be saved. So how to deal with them….

You could use an "alluring grace" idea; that is God makes grace so irresistible that none could resist its allure. God basically bribes people into salvation. However you still have to deal with the case of total recalcitrants, who choose not to respond to any inducements.

You could then go for the reformed "irresistible grace" idea, that God saves regardless of what the saved think about the idea but God would then appear to put aside free-will. God would be saving the unwilling by making them willing against their will.

LDS seems to follow the first model above, grace is alluring and given enough time nearly everyone will see things God’s ways and those who don’t will get their hearts desire of "eternal separation" from God (aka hell).

My problem with that is that the gospel doesn’t ask a lot of people, in Jesus words from Mark 16:16 "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." If people aren’t willing to make that call in this life, I personally doubt many would, even if given eternity, do so in the next.

I hope and long for the mercy of God to be as wide as possible and that as many as possible are saved. However I know what my Lord has said and it is my duty to live that (to my best ability but always needing God’s help and mercy) and proclaim it so others may choose to live it here as well.

[JohnnyRudick]

As the father of sons whom I love just as much as my daughters, I must respond that it certainly does not sound good to me. It sounds hellish and vomitous.

Yeah, I know, Moksha and Johnny were just funnin'. Ha ha ha. Fewer men will be saved so those who "make it" can have more sex with lots of different women throughout eternity. That's just riotous.

OK, OK.

My Bad:banghead:

I'm Sorry.

Not so sure we meant it quite that way;(

Bro. Rudick

Edited May 19, 2009 by JohnnyRudick

[Justice]

I hate to dissect and quibble over seemingly fine points, but I would argue that works are not a component of faith, but rather a product of it. They are an outcome. Further, it is certainly possible to produce works in other ways. So, while good works can be a sign of faith, they might also be the product of discipline, of a desire to please, or simply of good upbringing.

By all means, quibble.

Here is how I see it. I'm going to use a farmer as an example.

A farmer holds seeds. He did not create them, nor can he. They are from God. They are a gift. This farmer wishes to grow a garden. He must have these seeds before He does anything. But, his desire is not for seeds, but for fruit. So, he tills, plants, waters, and nurtures the seeds. God controls the conditions of the weather and soil at His will to allow the seeds to bring fruit or to not bring fruit. They grow and become a garden full of fruit.

God gave him the seeds (hear the word of God and believe)

Having seeds he can now hope for a garden that yields fruit

The farmer planted them and nurtured them (works)

The work the farmer does to achieve his hope is his faith (realizing the seeds are Gods and without them his works is vain) (faith is the evidence of things hoped for--the evidence of our hope would be the works)

The fruit is the result of the seeds put to proper and good use

Now, without seeds the man's work is "dead." He can go through the motions or work, but unless he plants the seeds (or word of God), his works yield no fruit, which is what the man hopes for.

Maybe that helps explain how works are a component of faith in my thinking.

[Justice]

The question to ask yourself, why is it that we assume by taking out our temple endowments, have callings in the church, attend our meetings, and have appropriate level of faith, most are still not called as Joseph Smith [meaning - calling of election]?

The answer is easy. Because we willingly bind ourselves to the things of this world. That means we follow our own will and not God's.

[prisonchaplain]

That just is not how I see things. All the labor of good works, proclaiming the gospel and the works of the ministry are external – as I interpret the parable of the sower; such things as examples, teaching the good word and the ministry are all parts of sowing the seed and are not the responsibility of an individual. The difference is not in the seed but in the preparation of the soil and only an individual can prepare their soil. Some are too angry (harden from being stepped on by others), some are too selfish and critical (soil with rocks that have not been removed), and some are too prideful and sinful (overcome with weeds). I believe Jesus is making an appeal to individuals to prepare themselves for the seed. There are some who’s soil is so un-kept that if the L-rd Jesus Christ himself should walk among them and teach them the seed would not take root enough to bear fruit.

In the end it is the unprepared soil (fault of the individual) and not the sower nor the seed (others or the L-rd) that prevents anyone from partaking of the richest gifts of G-d. How could it be the error of G-d or his servants? Why would any doctrine blame the L-rd or his servants? This is why I believe the L-rd will hold those that claim to be his servants to a higher standard than anyone else. If they are his servants they would be subject to his standards as he is – or I doubt that they are known to him as his servants.

The Traveler

There may indeed be many ways to look at Jesus' parable, and I do not discount that we are each responsible for our own response to the Gospel. On the other hand, the Church does bear responsibility to proclaim the Good News, under the anointing of the Holy Spirit. If we are too lazy to go, or if we go with a distorted message, then we do share some blame for failing in the Great Commission.

I'm not so sure we disagree here, overall. However, your focus is on the recipient of the Gospel, and mine on those who proclaim.

Edited May 19, 2009 by prisonchaplain