Death and free will.

[hordak]

so it has been a bad year and a half for my family. Lots of deaths, first my mother, 6 months later her sister, and then yesterday another sister. The odd thing about it is the order in which the went.

First my mother, who had been a LDS member since the age of 16 who, aside from a year off at 21 followed the WoW to the T. She was the youngest, and the smallest (they are all over weight or obese) walked 4 miles, 5 day a week for 25 years or so, her legs were her car , referred to water as "natures juice" and consumed it like most kids drink pop(soda).

Then my aunt, who was a 7 day Adventist and followed their strict health code (similar to the WoW for those who don't know)

Then my other other aunt, who was i would say about as fit as the average American.

This leaves my Uncle, a chain smoking alcoholic from the age of 16.

My Aunt , the oldest,had 12 years on my mother, who while now is only a social drinker, spent a large part of her life like a Dead Head.

My other aunt, 5"2 and easily 300lbs, uses a walker or wheel chair to get around, and has been that big for at least 25 years.

My point isn't health codes don't work, they all are, or were for those who passed, diabetic and had similar health issues aside from their lifestyles in which case the "healthier" ones went first. There seems to be no order to death.

Normally when a loved one passes whether it some child with a terminal disease, a teen in a car accident, or even an elderly parent who held out til the age of 98 people say "it was there time", "God wanted them back", "they have a special mission in heaven" or some sort of variation of this idea. But when speaking of the drunk driver, the guy smoking while siphoning gas,or the chain smoker who got cancer we tend to equate their actions and choices with their death. And even use this as incentive to avoid, or teach others to avoid, similar dangerous choices.

So I wonder which one is it. Do we have an expiration date from God, does he "pull the plug" when he wants us? Or is it based on random chance and choices? (which makes more since to me but isn't comforting to those who loss loved ones too early). What do the scriptures say?

[Hemidakota]

Yes and no...I have a self opinionated view on what was given to me on why some of us are given a warning and allowed an extension in this life to overcome weaknesses that will prevent our entry into HIS rest; or to carry out post mortal calling.

Even after I thought my time was complete here last summer and ready myself for the next calling beyond the veil, I was given the opportunity to stay longer or I call - extenuation of mortality. I have been in many close call incidents where a minister spirit was there to prevent it from taking my life. It goes to show, watching the various patterns; we learn there is a path HE wants us to be on when HE is ready to call for us.

The question I proposed to FATHER, who will be there to greet me when the times come to exit this mortal life? :)

Edited June 4, 2009 by Hemidakota

[NeuroTypical]

My own uninformed two cents:

From an eternal perspective, the timing of our deaths isn't near as important as we think it is. I believe we'll eventually come to understand this.

It's how you live with the time you have, that is more important.

LM

[john doe]

I think some of us are genetically predisposed to conditions which will likely shorten our lives. Others are victims of circumstances they can control. Others abuse their bodies and shorten both their lives and their quality of life. Others, no matter what they do, can't seem to die. My dad has been ready to die for the last decade, but his body won't give up so he keeps on keeping on.

[pam]

I went to a funeral years and years ago for a young man that was only 16. He was killed in a horrific car accident. The Stake President spoke at his funeral. He said for those that believe he died because it was "his time" are mistaken. It was nothing more than an accident. Heavenly Father would not choose for "his time" to end in such a way. That has always stuck with me. He too, (as LM mentioned) said we must live each day as if it's our last day on earth...because we never know when we might fall to an accident and be unprepared.

[Captain-Jack]

I think it's a little of both. I think there are times when the Lord will take a soul back, but the affect of that event on those surrounding the person is the purpose of His work. However, I think our choices do have a slight alteration on the timetable of our life.

[Hemidakota]

Regards to accident. we are called to saved those from an accident or even death or raising one from the dead who was not called home. I do not believe it is so Pam. If it was not his time, it would of been prevented or allowed to live another day.

[Hemidakota]

I think it's a little of both. I think there are times when the Lord will take a soul back, but the affect of that event on those surrounding the person is the purpose of His work. However, I think our choices do have a slight alteration on the timetable of our life.

True! Or the calling or work is not ready for us at this time to be called home.

[pam]

I really don't believe that for everyone killed in an accident that it was their time to go. I think accidents are truly that..accidents.

[Traveler]

My own uninformed two cents:

From an eternal perspective, the timing of our deaths isn't near as important as we think it is. I believe we'll eventually come to understand this.

It's how you live with the time you have, that is more important.

LM

Well Said!!

The Traveler

[Hemidakota]

I really don't believe that for everyone killed in an accident that it was their time to go. I think accidents are truly that..accidents.

If this was truism, I would had been dead several times since last July.

[pam]

I didn't say it applied to everyone. I am speaking generally..that not all accidents meant it was their time to go.

[john doe]

Regards to accident. we are called to saved those from an accident or even death or raising one from the dead who was not called home. I do not believe it is so Pam. If it was not his time, it would of been prevented or allowed to live another day.

I disagree. I believe that some people die because they are being or doing something stupid or unsafe. Or even when someone else is being or doing something stupid or unsafe.

[pam]

I think as a society we have become accustomed to using the phrase "it was their time" in a way to somehow lessen the grief that their loved ones are feeling.

[Hemidakota]

I didn't say it applied to everyone. I am speaking generally..that not all accidents meant it was their time to go.

Sorry...I should had applied a LAUGH BUTTON

[Hemidakota]

I disagree. I believe that some people die because they are being or doing something stupid or unsafe. Or even when someone else is being or doing something stupid or unsafe.

What if they are destined to be a prophet? How many of those youngesters destined to be prophets in there latter portion of mortal life made such foolish unsafe acts?

[hordak]

I disagree. I believe that some people die because they are being or doing something stupid or unsafe. Or even when someone else is being or doing something stupid or unsafe.

Good point. If God controlled death 100% (I.E. you won't die until it's your time) murder and suicide wouldn't be sins.

[pam]

Hemi you are trying to provide a debate based on very few special cases. Notice JD say "some people."

[john doe]

What if they are destined to be a prophet? How many of those youngesters destined to be prophets in there latter portion of mortal life made such foolish unsafe acts?

I believe that if someone foreordained to be a prophet died because of their or someone else's being unsafe or doing something stupid, another would be raised up to take his place. It's called foreordination, not predestination, for a reason. I believe that very few people on this earth are so special that their contribution to events of the world could not be done by someone else.

[Justice]

I like to think of it like I do other things where God is concerned. For instance, like the weather...

He set the earth in motion, fully capable of generating weather patters. However, He can step in any time He chooses. That leaves 3 conditions.

1. The tornado was simply an act of nature.

2. God caused a torando to appear, one that nature was not going to produce.

3. God can stop a tornade produced by nature any moment He wishes.

Being that 2 and 3 are true, God is in control.

Death has the same three variables as above. And, since 2 and 3 are true for death, He is in control.

Now, it could be that He allows premature death based on actions because He does not remove our agency. I believe He is a lot quicker to step in when someone is suffering from a condition that they are not responsible for bringing on themselves or by the actions of another (like genetics or birth defects).

Just my opinion.

Edited June 4, 2009 by Justice
spelling

[beefche]

I agree with pammy and john doe. Except, I do believe that God will intervene in some people's lives to protect them because that person hasn't completed a work. Joseph Smith comes to mind immediately. Again, I don't think this happens to each and every person, but there are some who have a specific mission or job or whatever you want to call it, and a premature death would not allow that person to accomplish the task.

D&C 122:9

9 Therefore, hold on thy way, and the priesthood shall remain with thee; for their bounds are set, they cannot pass. Thy days are known, and thy years shall not be numbered less; therefore, fear not what man can do, for God shall be with you forever and ever.

Job 7:1

1 Is there not an appointed time to man upon earth? are not his days also like the days of an hireling?

Edited June 4, 2009 by pam
Spelled my name wrong :)

[john doe]

I agree, Beefche. There are people who have been miraculously healed or saved from death. And they went on to perform great works. But that does not mean that they would have survived any calamity that befell them if they did not learn from those things to listen to the promptings of God and take precautions to protect themselves.