A few Qs

[HEthePrimate]

Does everything happen for a reason?

Is everything that happens directed by God?

Is everything, therefore, the way it should be?

[bytebear]

Does everything happen for a reason?

Is everything that happens directed by God?

Is everything, therefore, the way it should be?

No, I don't think so. God gives us free will. He starts up the engine, and lets it run. When things get out of whack, or when things need to be accomplished, he intervenes, but for the most part, we are here to figure it out without him telling us what to do.

Joseph Smith said, "I teach them correct principles and let them lead themselves." I think that is God's way. He tells us what we need to know, but we do the rest, and sometimes (most of the time) we screw up. But that's what repentance is for. We correct ourselves and move on.

Also, I think you are looking at the world as one big machine, and asking if that machine is running correctly. But God sees us each as individuals. Sure we interact, but it is all about the individual in God's eyes. So, there are random interactions, and we are simply to learn how to deal with them as they come along, gathering "correct principles" which help us make the right decisions.

[marshac]

Does everything happen for a reason?

Is everything that happens directed by God?

Is everything, therefore, the way it should be?

1- I don't believe so, no

2- No way. Free agency prohibits this... and if everything WERE directed by God, then I would really wonder about the state of Heaven if this is how He would run things down here.

3- "Should be" is somewhat relativistic. Compared to what? Things are the way they are as a result of many decisions- many good, many bad.

My 2 cents :)

[Guest]

No, I don't think so. God gives us free will. He starts up the engine, and lets it run. When things get out of whack, or when things need to be accomplished, he intervenes, but for the most part, we are here to figure it out without him telling us what to do.

Joseph Smith said, "I teach them correct principles and let them lead themselves." I think that is God's way. He tells us what we need to know, but we do the rest, and sometimes (most of the time) we screw up. But that's what repentance is for. We correct ourselves and move on.

Also, I think you are looking at the world as one big machine, and asking if that machine is running correctly. But God sees us each as individuals. Sure we interact, but it is all about the individual in God's eyes. So, there are random interactions, and we are simply to learn how to deal with them as they come along, gathering "correct principles" which help us make the right decisions.

I agree 100%.

But, in addition to this, I believe that God knows us all so well that he can anticipate what we are going to choose. There are times he lets things happen in due course, there are other times when he intervenes, reasons all His and something we might not understand. Sometimes people feel the consequence of bad choice at the exact same time other people are blessed by the same choice.

Okay, this is purely hypothetical, but say there is this driver that chose to drink and drive on the freeway. He gets into an accident and loses use of his legs. Consequence for a bad choice. But, at the same time, this doctor who has prayed to God for an opportunity to serve, just got his prayers answered, and he gets to earn a blessing.

Ahh... I suck at telling stories. Dunno if this makes any sense to anybody...

[marshac]

anatess- you don't suck at stories. Actually, this same topic came up at institute this quarter :)

Whoa, I have to be in the ER in an hour.... for the sake of the poor decision maker, I hope they don't make those bad decisions.... but if they are going to, I hope they make them during my shift.....

Man, I always feel bad hoping for something "interesting" while i'm on shift at the ER.... my gain is the direct result of someone else's misfortune.... which is why we don't gamble..... cripes.... I should stop thinking about this and just go.

[TheAngelPalmoni]

Yes - Palmoni Scrolls

[tubaloth]

Does everything happen for a reason?

I wouldn't say everything happens for a reason. But I think many things do happen for a reason be it good or bad. But some things just happen maybe for no reason.

Is everything that happens directed by God?

I would say everything is allowed by God. Nothing really does happen with out God knowing. There isn't something that happens while God was out. That isn't to say he controlls everything, because people can do there own thing, but its with in the relm God allows.

Is everything, therefore, the way it should be?

Yes! The idea that God looses control of what is happening can't fit into my mind. So maybe somebody dies that shouldn't have, but that doesn't mean things are wrong or not the way they should be. The plan of salvation moves forward the way God wants it to. Nothing can stop it from being the way it "should be"!

[pam]

Yes - Palmoni Scrolls

Perhaps you could expand on your answer instead of linking to your scrolls. I find them difficult to read and really don't have the time to figure out your answer based on these numerous scrolls.

[Snow]

Does everything happen for a reason?

Is everything that happens directed by God?

Is everything, therefore, the way it should be?

1. Yes - when Phil Spector went to prison, they made him take off his wig for a reason. The reason is that wigs are not allowed in prison.

http://i.cdn.turner.com/trutv/thesmokinggun.com/graphics/art4/0609091philspector1.jpg

2. No - God does not care if people wear wigs in prison or not.

3. ???? What is the way that, as you say, things should be? Wigless?

[deseretgov]

Does everything happen for a reason?

Yes.

Is everything that happens directed by God?

I believe God is in control of everything. BUt I blieve that God allows somethings to happen that He did not command to happen.

Is everything, therefore, the way it should be?

I think everything is the way it needs to be.

[a-train]

Does everything happen for a reason?

Is everything that happens directed by God?

Is everything, therefore, the way it should be?

Fatalism is a hoax. You have the ultimate power to choose.

-a-train

[Snow]

Yes.

Oh?

I assume that by "reason" you mean "purpose." For what purpose or reason do people use bad grammar?

I think everything is the way it needs to be.

Why is the use of bad grammar needed?

[pam]

I believe God is in control of everything. BUt I blieve that God allows somethings to happen that He did not command to happen.

If God is in control of everything why do we have agency? Why are we allowed to make choices even if those choices are not the correct ones. Was that not the plan in the prexistence? To learn and to grow from our mistakes? If God controlled we would have no need to learn and to progress.

[pam]

Why is the use of bad grammar needed?

Now Snow. I ain't see no one body that used bad grammar.

[Misshalfway]

Does everything happen for a reason?

I don't believe so. If it did, then it would sure be a great argument for fate or predestination. What I think is that everything that happens is an opportunity for personal growth.

Is everything that happens directed by God?

Not everything. I think God directs some and then lets things play out according to His wisdom. He never violates the constraints of agency to make something happen, so I believe that he blesses or influences in compliance with eternal law.

Is everything, therefore, the way it should be?

No, things aren't the way they "should" be. There is injustice and imperfection and pain and loss. But all these things work together for our good. Everything is however, in balance. Because of the Atonement, all things can be made right again.

[Hemidakota]

OP, have your questions been answered?

[ztodd]

Oh?

I assume that by "reason" you mean "purpose." For what purpose or reason do people use bad grammar?

Why is the use of bad grammar needed?

They do it on accident; not on purpose... usually... but the reason they do it is because they don't know the correct grammar usage, or they forgot.

How do we define reason? Do all reasons have to be reasonable? :)

I guess one definition as you say is "purpose". Another might be "cause". Everything has a cause- we know that.

Is there a reason for the 9-11 attacks? Well, we know the cause is basically because of wickedness. But was there a purpose? In the mind of the terrorists there was. But was there a purpose in the mind of God? Did He allow it to happen for a particular reason or purpose?

How about if you have a friend who is the kindest person you know- and something really sad happens to that person, like he/she loses his/her parents in a tragic accident. Your friend didn't do anything to deserve that- so what is the reason or purpose to something like that?

There are purposes for which God allows bad things to happen. We don't understand all His purposes - but we can gain a better understanding of why He allows certain things, if we pray for it, if we ponder on it, and listen for His Spirit to help us. Also studying the scriptures and applying them to our lives can help. - 1 Ne 19:23

God knows the end from the beginning. He knows every single little thing that has happened, that is happening now, and that will happen. He has the power to stop any of these little things, or big things, if that is His desire. So it goes to reason that everything that happens, is allowed by God to happen.

Does God have a purpose for allowing every single little thing to happen? Yes- even if it is only to allow us our agency, and to teach us the consequences of using that agency, or to teach us how one person using his/her agency can affect the lives of others- and how we can still choose how to react to that.

We live in a fallen world- an imperfect world, where accidents can happen, and where wickedness abounds.

In my example where your friend loses his parents in an accident- that might have been nobody's fault. Supposing it was a car accident- the car may have been running just fine- the parents may have been keeping very alert and attentive and obeying the rules of the road, perhaps no other cars were even involved, but somehow a freak incident of nature causes ice to be on the road, which causes the parents to lose control, hit something at high speed, flip the cars a few times, causing them to suffer and die.

Would there have been a purpose to God allowing all this to happen? Is there something the friend, the parents, and all other loved ones needed to learn? Were the parents needed on the other side of the veil? Is there anything good that could have come from a tragedy like this? I believe there is. We won't understand it right away, and might not understand it for many many years, perhaps not even until the spirit world, or until after the resurrection.

[FlaviusHambonius]

1. Yes - when Phil Spector went to prison, they made him take off his wig for a reason. The reason is that wigs are not allowed in prison.

http://i.cdn.turner.com/trutv/thesmokinggun.com/graphics/art4/0609091philspector1.jpg

2. No - God does not care if people wear wigs in prison or not.

3. ???? What is the way that, as you say, things should be? Wigless?

Handsome little devil isn't he?

The height board behind him is considered his new 'Wall of Sound'

So, yes everything is as it should be.

[Snow]

They do it on accident; not on purpose... usually... but the reason they do it is because they don't know the correct grammar usage, or they forgot.

How do we define reason? Do all reasons have to be reasonable? :)

That explains the cause of incorrect grammar usage but not the purpose - the reason... which is: there is none. It is absurd to think that all things, including misusing the work "infer" for the word "imply" has a purpose behind them.

I guess one definition as you say is "purpose". Another might be "cause". Everything has a cause- we know that.

No we don't know that. That's a theory but there are other theories of randomness that do not require a cause for each outcome.

God knows the end from the beginning. He knows every single little thing that has happened, that is happening now, and that will happen. He has the power to stop any of these little things, or big things, if that is His desire. So it goes to reason that everything that happens, is allowed by God to happen.

That's also a theory, or better said hypothesis, for which there is no proof.

Does God have a purpose for allowing every single little thing to happen? Yes- even if it is only to allow us our agency, and to teach us the consequences of using that agency, or to teach us how one person using his/her agency can affect the lives of others- and how we can still choose how to react to that.

Last night I was carrying a cup of hot chocolate on a saucer up the stairs in the dark. I spilled a tiny bit of hot chocolate out of the cup onto the saucer. Not much, a little bit only. What do you think was the purpose of that? If I had not spilled the hot chocolate would I have thwarted God's purposes?

We live in a fallen world- an imperfect world, where accidents can happen, and where wickedness abounds.

According to your theory there are no accidents, just outcomes that were pre-known, and either caused or allowed to happen in order to fulfill God's purpose.

In my example where your friend loses his parents in an accident- that might have been nobody's fault. Supposing it was a car accident- the car may have been running just fine- the parents may have been keeping very alert and attentive and obeying the rules of the road, perhaps no other cars were even involved, but somehow a freak incident of nature causes ice to be on the road, which causes the parents to lose control, hit something at high speed, flip the cars a few times, causing them to suffer and die.

Would there have been a purpose to God allowing all this to happen? Is there something the friend, the parents, and all other loved ones needed to learn? Were the parents needed on the other side of the veil? Is there anything good that could have come from a tragedy like this? I believe there is. We won't understand it right away, and might not understand it for many many years, perhaps not even until the spirit world, or until after the resurrection.

Here's a better example. A perp kidnaps and infant and then horribly abuses, tortures and kills the infant, buries the body and the corpse is never found and the rapist/murderer never caught.

What's the purpose? If you don't know, could you explain some of the possible purposes?

[ztodd]

Last night I was carrying a cup of hot chocolate on a saucer up the stairs in the dark. I spilled a tiny bit of hot chocolate out of the cup onto the saucer. Not much, a little bit only. What do you think was the purpose of that? If I had not spilled the hot chocolate would I have thwarted God's purposes?

Maybe so! :) I see what you're saying- that little tiny things like that don't really matter, that there's no real purpose to them. Well, when you're looking at tiny little incidents like that by themselves, perhaps that is true- at least as it pertains to us. But perhaps in something that does not pertain to us, and that we do not even understand, there was a purpose- although it may have been just as insignificant a purpose (as it seems to us) as the incident itself. (Maybe that saucer just needed to get wet at that particular moment. :) )

According to your theory there are no accidents, just outcomes that were pre-known, and either caused or allowed to happen in order to fulfill God's purpose.

There are no accidents in the sense that they are outside of God's control - but there are accidents in the sense that they are outside of our control.

Here's a better example. A perp kidnaps and infant and then horribly abuses, tortures and kills the infant, buries the body and the corpse is never found and the rapist/murderer never caught.

What's the purpose? If you don't know, could you explain some of the possible purposes?

Of course I cannot authoritatively say what the purpose would be, only give a possibility.

I know how this may sound, but as I stated previously, perhaps the only purpose to such an act of wickedness that is meaningful to us may be the perpetrator receiving the opportunity to use his agency in the way he chooses. This would make the judgments that will come to him admittedly just. Also, all those whose lives would be affected by this sort of thing will have gained a certain experience that likely could not have been gained in any other way. Perhaps certain of them will have come closer to God through this experience, or had their heart softened, given that extra push to be made to be humble before God.

[NeuroTypical]

God bought the props and set the stage. He'll help or hinder the actors according to His will, to obtain the desired end. Nothing that the actors do surprises him, but it usually surprises the actors.

[Hemidakota]

If there are endless worlds that are populated by Spirits of FATHER, wouldn't those worlds have the same 'mortal play' but filled by different spirits as actors? Then what is the probability of the outcome after several times running the same play over and over?

[Snow]

Maybe so! :) I see what you're saying- that little tiny things like that don't really matter, that there's no real purpose to them. Well, when you're looking at tiny little incidents like that by themselves, perhaps that is true- at least as it pertains to us. But perhaps in something that does not pertain to us, and that we do not even understand, there was a purpose- although it may have been just as insignificant a purpose (as it seems to us) as the incident itself. (Maybe that saucer just needed to get wet at that particular moment. :) )

Or maybe there's no purpose whatsoever.

Of course I cannot authoritatively say what the purpose would be, only give a possibility.

I know how this may sound, but as I stated previously, perhaps the only purpose to such an act of wickedness that is meaningful to us may be the perpetrator receiving the opportunity to use his agency in the way he chooses. This would make the judgments that will come to him admittedly just. Also, all those whose lives would be affected by this sort of thing will have gained a certain experience that likely could not have been gained in any other way. Perhaps certain of them will have come closer to God through this experience, or had their heart softened, given that extra push to be made to be humble before God.

I have to say that's a horrible proposition.

Let me ask YOU - and mind you that you are not nearly as beneficent and just as God is - would you, if it were in your power, allow a sadist rapist/murderer to kidnap an infant and horribly abuse and murder them, in order to give the murderer an opportunity to exercise free will?

[ztodd]

Or maybe there's no purpose whatsoever.

I have to say that's a horrible proposition.

Let me ask YOU - and mind you that you are not nearly as beneficent and just as God is - would you, if it were in your power, allow a sadist rapist/murderer to kidnap an infant and horribly abuse and murder them, in order to give the murderer an opportunity to exercise free will?

Can't say that I would. I'm pretty sure I would not currently be willing to do that, and can hardly imagine what it would take to bring me to to that point.

But I still have no trouble putting my faith in God. I have felt His Spirit witness to my soul that He is all loving, all wise, all kind, and all powerful. I feel that He is perfectly just, as well as perfectly merciful. How He can be all of these things with all that goes on the world is beyond my understanding, but that Spirit has lightened my testimony, that regardless of how much I understand, I still know that God is all of these things. He is perfect. He is Eternal. That's a big key I think- being Eternal, and thinking eternally.

[Snow]

Can't say that I would. I'm pretty sure I would not currently be willing to do that, and can hardly imagine what it would take to bring me to to that point.

But I still have no trouble putting my faith in God. I have felt His Spirit witness to my soul that He is all loving, all wise, all kind, and all powerful. I feel that He is perfectly just, as well as perfectly merciful. How He can be all of these things with all that goes on the world is beyond my understanding, but that Spirit has lightened my testimony, that regardless of how much I understand, I still know that God is all of these things. He is perfect. He is Eternal. That's a big key I think- being Eternal, and thinking eternally.

Putting your faith in God doesn't mean that God has to design purposes for everything.

Personally, I think He just stays out of most things.