Charisma

[mountthepavement]

Charisma in religion: Good? Bad? Nuanced opinion?

Ideally, I would like to hear people on this site talk about it, but I don't have much to say. Is it too much to hope for for people to carry on a topic interesting to me without my giving much input?

[hordak]

depends.

"That Jesus sure was great. I think I'll try to be like him and serve others" Good effect of Charisma

"Wow look at all the celebrities who are in Scientology. Where do i sign up" Bad effects of Charisma

Note: I'm not picking on Scientology for it's beliefs but comparing joining a religion because you like it's members vs joining a religion because it's teachings.

[NeuroTypical]

Charisma is important in religion, but it shouldn't be. I often tell people that the only good reason I've found to be a Mormon, is that I figure God wants me to be one. I'm not LDS because I like the Bishop, or because the ward is full of friendly, helpful, good lookin' people, or because Pres. Hinckley was so good on Larry King Live. I know plenty of people are. Many folks have their beliefs and activity rooted in a mortal characteristic of another person. Problem is, should the Bishop make a mistake, or you move to a less openly friendly ward, or you hear some church leader give a talk that rubs you the wrong way - suddenly a major building block of your faith is eroded or destroyed.

Faith ought to spring from the principles and ideals the particular religion teaches. LDS folks call that 'the gospel'.

LM

(fully aware that Joseph Smith had a vast amount of personal charisma)

[Guest missingsomething]

wow this is way too deep for so early in the morning.

[pam]

People such as Jim Jones and David Koresh had great charisma. If not they would not have been able to have such a following. Was this good charisma? I think not.

I think charisma is a good quality if using it in righteous ways.

[john doe]

Charisma may draw people in, but a religion without substance is generally found to be wanting.

[DigitalShadow]

I think charisma is a good quality if using it in righteous ways.

But if the ways are righteous, charisma shouldn't be needed.

[pam]

I would agree with you..but having some Church leaders that have that bit of charisma sure isn't a hinderance.

[DigitalShadow]

I would agree with you..but having some Church leaders that have that bit of charisma sure isn't a hinderance.

The problem with religion and charisma is that religion relies on faith and faith is what a charismatic person is best at manipulating and using against you. While I don't believe charisma is inherently good or bad, it is used for bad far more often that it is used for good.

Edit: Bah! Now I have the Cult of Personality song stuck in my head.

Edited June 10, 2009 by DigitalShadow

[prisonchaplain]

But if the ways are righteous, charisma shouldn't be needed.

I understand your meaning, and would agree that CHARM is not needed.

But charisma, when it is true, is Holy Spirit-originated. As such, it's not even optional. We've gotta have it! Peter had it and saw 3000 converted after giving one talk. Paul had it and nearly converted a pagan governor (free agency can reject the Spirit's wooing). 12 disciples had it and turned their world upside down.

Today, some of the wealthiest, most highly educated Christian denominations are rapidly declining, while those with less means, but which curry the charisma of the Holy Spirit remain on the upswing. Maybe I'm getting old, or the 2nd coming is nigh, but me thinks that there's not enough time to play around with dry, lifeless religion. I never want it said that I "had a form of godliness, but denied the power thereof."

[Traveler]

The problem with religion and charisma is that religion relies on faith and faith is what a charismatic person is best at manipulating and using against you. While I don't believe charisma is inherently good or bad, it is used for bad far more often that it is used for good.

Edit: Bah! Now I have the Cult of Personality song stuck in my head.

I am with you DS – If the crowd is following something in a frenzy (religious, social, political or even scientific); it is more likely to draw my scientism than confidence. Frost and I are kindred spirits when it comes to traveling the road less traveled. I would much rather back pack into a high alpine lake for a vacation than spend even an hour at Disneyland.

BTW there are scriptures that indicate that “The Way” is not something to be sought for or involved with if one is primarily inspired when mingling with hoards – I would suggest something more along the worldly and popular path.

The Traveler

[pam]

The problem with religion and charisma is that religion relies on faith and faith is what a charismatic person is best at manipulating and using against you. While I don't believe charisma is inherently good or bad, it is used for bad far more often that it is used for good.

Edit: Bah! Now I have the Cult of Personality song stuck in my head.

I do agree with you in that it is used more for bad than good.

[ploomf]

I agree with DigitalShadow, it's just way to easy for a charasmatic person to use religion to hurt and take advantage of others.

[mountthepavement]

Edit: Bah! Now I have the Cult of Personality song stuck in my head.

Living Colour, I believe.

[mountthepavement]

General follow-up question:

Jesus was charismatic: agree or disagree?

[DigitalShadow]

Jesus was charismatic: agree or disagree?

Divine or not, anyone whose teachings are still talked of 2000 years later definitely qualifies as charismatic.

[Moksha]

Joseph Smith was certainly a charismatic leader.

[JPL1234]

Charisma is important if you want others to take notice of you, listen to you,etc.

For instance, when I am listing to someone speak, whether to myself or infront of a large group of people, I take more notice and listen better if the person is interesting, and speaks up and with confidence, looks at you directly, stands with confidence. etc.

Not everyone obviously has good public speaking skills, I understand. But it is very hard to pay attention to someone whom does not look at their audience and speak softly in a monotone voice.

Charisma is important to connect well with others. A good leader has charisma, it comes along with leadership qualities.

[Traveler]

General follow-up question:

Jesus was charismatic: agree or disagree?

Not to the Pharisees and Scribes. Which BTW - said that they were not fooled by someone contrary to the Law (law meening their scriptures).

The Traveler

[Traveler]

Joseph Smith was certainly a charismatic leader.

Interesting point of view - Do you think that it is common or customary for a charismatic leader to be murdered by an angry mob?

The Traveler

[mountthepavement]

Interesting point of view - Do you think that it is common or customary for a charismatic leader to be murdered by an angry mob?

The Traveler

Wasn't, still, Jesus executed by the will of the mob?

[Dravin]

Wasn't, still, Jesus executed by the will of the mob?

And to invoke Godwin, Hitler was extremely charismatic and had a rather famous assassination attempt tried against him. 'Course that wasn't a mob, but still. Charisma means you can influence people in some pretty powerful ways, sometimes that influence leads some people to hate you not love you.

[qedd]

Charisma in religion: Good? Bad? Nuanced opinion?

Is a hammer good or bad? A shovel? A gun? A computer? The Internet? What about a smile, a handshake, or a pat on the back?

Is it the tool itself or the way the tool is used that is good or bad?

[Traveler]

There is something I want to make clear. Leaders like Jesus and Joseph Smith did have effects on people they met but it just was not what they said as much as how they treated people. To me charismatic is flash and show and not so much on substance.

Let me give an example: I consider Alexander the Great to be a leader of substance. There is a story that once when crossing a high mountain to engage a battle a wagon became bogged down deep in mud. Alexander came upon the wagon on his famous white steed. He stopped, got off his horse and wadded into the mud calling out to all the men around him that had been watching. With the massive efforts of all the wagon was freed and a muddy Alexander got back on his horse and continued admid the cheers of the men. That night Alexander was confronted by his angry generals. They indicated to Alexander that he was not a typical mortal but part G-d and that he should not be getting himself dirty – there were many others whose job it was to get into the mud but Alexander by his divine call is above such things. It is said that Alexander looks his generals in the eye and firmly stated that tomorrow every man at the wagon would gladly give their life for him in battle – and then he asked, “What would they do for you?” I would also point out that Alexander would always place himself at the “thick” of the battle as an example to his men whereas most generals of his time placed themselves well back from the critical points expecting all others to execute their command.

If a leader is not the best example of what they teach they should be willing to step down for anyone else that is.

The Traveler

[Moksha]

To me charismatic is flash and show and not so much on substance.

The Traveler

I suppose we can all have a like or dislike for for a certain word. For instance, I find the usage of "so called" in reference to a subject most annoying.

However, charismatic leadership is one that arouses special popular loyalty or enthusiasm for the leader. Charisma itself is special magnetic charm or appeal.

:)