Faith/Works

[mountthepavement]

Some of my other threads are related to this, but this seems like a popular enough question to merit its own.

So, any discussion on the faith vs. works issue is welcome.

This seems to among the most important doctrinal emphases of LDS. I also have a sense that, related to this, it was one of Joseph Smith's central goals to express that faith is greater than mere belief in that faith is belief and hope endowed with action, or, if you prefer, power. Something like that. One can see how this relates to the faith vs. works debate; it stakes out a nuanced position: that belief is not enough; indeed, faith is required, but faith is always accompanied by works. (This much was expressed also in the book of James, which Martin Luther, a famous proponent of "faith alone" called the "epistle of straw," or so I have heard. He didn't mean that as a compliment.)

By no means does this OP need to guide the entire discussion.

Any takers?

[prospectmom]

I do not think it is faith vs. works I think if you have faith then works automatacally follow....... just how I look at it.... :]

[pam]

I would have to agree with you pmom.

[prospectmom]

Thanks Pam

[MsMagnolia]

The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that faith is “the moving cause of all action” in intelligent beings (Joseph Smith, compiler, Lectures on Faith [1985], 1–2). Just like prospect mom, I also belive that works are part of having Fatih. When you have Faith you exercize it. just like any other muscle as you work on it (with works) it grows stronger.

Just my thoughts,

Mags

[TruthSeekerToo]

Here is a recent thread many pages long on this topic. HTH

http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/21284-believe-works-faith.html

[Maureen]

Instead, faith is God's work in us, that changes us and gives new birth from God. (John 1:13). It kills the Old Adam and makes us completely different people. It changes our hearts, our spirits, our thoughts and all our powers. It brings the Holy Spirit with it. Yes, it is a living, creative, active and powerful thing, this faith. Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn't stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an unbeliever. He stumbles around and looks for faith and good works, even though he does not know what faith or good works are. Yet he gossips and chatters about faith and good works with many words. Faith is a living, bold trust in God's grace, so certain of God’s favor that it would risk death a thousand times trusting in it. Such confidence and knowledge of God's grace makes you happy, joyful and bold in your relationship to God and all creatures. The Holy Spirit makes this happen through faith. Because of it, you freely, willingly and joyfully do good to everyone, serve everyone, suffer all kinds of things, love and praise the God who has shown you such grace. Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire! Therefore, watch out for your own false ideas and guard against good-for-nothing gossips, who think they're smart enough to define faith and works, but really are the greatest of fools. Ask God to work faith in you, or you will remain forever without faith, no matter what you wish, say or can do.

http://www.projectwittenberg.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/luther-faith.txt

Edited June 18, 2009 by Maureen

[mountthepavement]

I do not think it is faith vs. works I think if you have faith then works automatacally follow....... just how I look at it.... :]

Yes, I felt this is the LDS position on the "debate." That is what I mean by "nuanced."

[Elgama]

gonna agree with the others if you are not doing the works you do not have faith

-Charley

[Hemidakota]

To sum it up from Alma;

Alma 7:24 - And see that ye have faith, hope, and charity, and then ye will always abound in good works.

Latter revelation adds; D&C 63:11 - Yea, signs come by faith, unto mighty works, for without faith no man pleaseth God; and with whom God is angry he is not well pleased; wherefore, unto such he showeth no signs, only in wrath unto their condemnation.

Edited June 18, 2009 by Hemidakota

[Justice]

Instead, faith is God's work in us, that changes us and gives new birth from God.

It's this "in us" that I think needs clarified.

It sounds like you're saying man has 0 responsibility for this work God does "in us." If this were the case then why can't God work in all men?

Please explain what you mean by "in us."

[mountthepavement]

Instead, faith is God's work in us, that changes us and gives new birth from God. (John 1:13). It kills the Old Adam and makes us completely different people. It changes our hearts, our spirits, our thoughts and all our powers. It brings the Holy Spirit with it. Yes, it is a living, creative, active and powerful thing, this faith. Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn't stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an unbeliever. He stumbles around and looks for faith and good works, even though he does not know what faith or good works are. Yet he gossips and chatters about faith and good works with many words. Faith is a living, bold trust in God's grace, so certain of God’s favor that it would risk death a thousand times trusting in it. Such confidence and knowledge of God's grace makes you happy, joyful and bold in your relationship to God and all creatures. The Holy Spirit makes this happen through faith. Because of it, you freely, willingly and joyfully do good to everyone, serve everyone, suffer all kinds of things, love and praise the God who has shown you such grace. Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire! Therefore, watch out for your own false ideas and guard against good-for-nothing gossips, who think they're smart enough to define faith and works, but really are the greatest of fools. Ask God to work faith in you, or you will remain forever without faith, no matter what you wish, say or can do.

I don't say faith can be defined necessarily: perhaps negatively or paradoxically (self-referentially or through an apparent contradiction) which is not the same. In fact, you are engaging in a kind of negative description of faith yourself, to the extent that your rhetoric relies on expressing how we can know when we have it wrong. I don't say that this is itself bad; on the contrary. However, what is a gossip if not someone who talks about people not present? Are the people you are talking about present?

[mountthepavement]

gonna agree with the others if you are not doing the works you do not have faith

-Charley

Thanks for the input. Again, I would just observe that this seems to be a central thesis of LDS. I am not saying whether I think this is good or bad, just pointing it out.

[mountthepavement]

... then why can't God work in all men?

Interesting point.

[mountthepavement]

General follow up:

It is common parlance to think of sins as actions, perhaps less-so to think of faith as such. However, I believe that y'all are reflecting the notion in LDS that faith is commensurate with action or works. Perhaps we can gain something by considering whether sin isn't the opposite of faith in every way. As such, sin is connected directly with actions, but has something to it which is internal as well. This may help us to realize something that we hadn't previously about sin.

This, I think, is the simplest, let's say most parsimonious, understanding of what faith is: the opposite of sin.

What is sin? That is inherently a subject of debate, because we would all like to conceal our sin, guard it, cherish it, celebrate it, excuse it, flaunt it, and finally despair of it, all of which only contribute further to it. Faith is what happens when we don't do those things. That's why I say faith can be defined only negatively. I mistrust any positive things we might have to say about it: it's all poetry -- rhetoric potentially available to the clever, sinful mind.

Thanks y'all!

[Maureen]

It's this "in us" that I think needs clarified.

It sounds like you're saying man has 0 responsibility for this work God does "in us." If this were the case then why can't God work in all men?

Please explain what you mean by "in us."

I don't say faith can be defined necessarily: perhaps negatively or paradoxically (self-referentially or through an apparent contradiction) which is not the same. In fact, you are engaging in a kind of negative description of faith yourself, to the extent that your rhetoric relies on expressing how we can know when we have it wrong. I don't say that this is itself bad; on the contrary. However, what is a gossip if not someone who talks about people not present? Are the people you are talking about present?

Just to be clear, my post are the thoughts of Martin Luther, translated from German to English, 16th century vernacular. The link shows the whole quote. Words that are not my own, I show in green.

For me, Luther's words are self explanatory. Faith in God's grace to save us, is what changes us; we put off the old man for the new man. Genuine faith automatically produces good works, the two go together, like heat and light from fire.

M.

[Justice]

You say He works in us, then you say we put off the natural man. So, you don't mean that God works in us as much as you mean we allow Him to work in us?

[martybess]

I mistrust any positive things we might have to say about it: it's all poetry -- rhetoric potentially available to the clever, sinful mind.

Thanks y'all!

Oh how poetry has enlighten the mind and brought new understanding to much of life. You say "it's all poetry". Is that a bad thing? Psalms truly enlightens the mind.

[Maureen]

You say He works in us, then you say we put off the natural man. So, you don't mean that God works in us as much as you mean we allow Him to work in us?

Actually, to be really specific, Luther said God works "in us", I said we put off the "old man". And yes, we make the choice to accept God's gift of change, of salvation.

M.

[Justice]

How do we accept His gift?

[Maureen]

How do we accept His gift?

By realizing that it is only God who can save us.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Romans 10:8-10)

M.

[prisonchaplain]

And...even the faith to realize is a gift from God...we accept the gifts of faith, of forgiveness, and of a new life, holy and righteous. Accepting a gift is hardly earning it.

[Misshalfway]

And...even the faith to realize is a gift from God...we accept the gifts of faith, of forgiveness, and of a new life, holy and righteous. Accepting a gift is hardly earning it.

There is accepting a gift.....and then there is accepting a gift under a covenant. The covenant is what makes the gift and ones willingness to participate in the gift binding.

[Justice]

By realizing that it is only God who can save us.

All we have to do is come to a realization that we need God? That's it?

What about all the things Jesus taught? What about the commandments He gave?

[Maureen]

All we have to do is come to a realization that we need God? That's it?

What about all the things Jesus taught? What about the commandments He gave?

Like I said before, Luther's words are self explanatory but let me quote them again:

Instead, faith is God's work in us, that changes us and gives new birth from God. (John 1:13). It kills the Old Adam and makes us completely different people. It changes our hearts, our spirits, our thoughts and all our powers. It brings the Holy Spirit with it. Yes, it is a living, creative, active and powerful thing, this faith. Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn't stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an unbeliever....

...Faith is a living, bold trust in God's grace, so certain of God’s favor that it would risk death a thousand times trusting in it. Such confidence and knowledge of God's grace makes you happy, joyful and bold in your relationship to God and all creatures. The Holy Spirit makes this happen through faith. Because of it, you freely, willingly and joyfully do good to everyone, serve everyone, suffer all kinds of things, love and praise the God who has shown you such grace. Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire!...

Faith isn't just something you have, it's a powerful force that changes your life and relationship with God.

Faith is so powerful that Abraham was willing to sacrifice Isaac because he had such deep faith in God's promise to him that he knew that God would bring Isaac back to him. Faith is so powerful that the woman with a bleeding disorder had so much faith in Jesus that she didn't even approach him face to face, she crawled on the ground to touch his robe since she believed so immensely in Jesus' ability to cure her. Her faith was so genuine that Jesus could feel the power leave him.

M.

Edited June 21, 2009 by Maureen