Question On Joesph Smith And Other Prophets

[TRomans]

Hello everybody,

Earlier today I was watching the 4 hour PBS documentary entitled "The Mormons". I thought it was an interesting documentary, although I feel that they could of touched more on some parts and less on others-such as polygamy and those who still practise it-as they are not even members of the church.

Anywho my question comes on the bases of Joesph Smith calling polygamy into play. From my understanding it is that many members including Brigham Young were opposed to this idea. Smith had claimed that it was through Revelation that he had received this notion of putting polygamy back into use.

Now comes my question..Do you think that Joseph made polygamy alright in the Church for selfish reasons? That perhaps he wanted to have polygamy so he could sleep with younger women? I know Joesph Smith is/was a Prophet of God, but nonetheless he is still a man-an imperfect being.

Also say this happened in today's times, that we felt one of our leaders was doing something for personal reasons. Do we obey or what?

I hope what I am getting at makes sense, and that my question can be answered.

Thanks

Tyler

[Dravin]

Now comes my question..Do you think that Joseph made polygamy alright in the Church for selfish reasons? That perhaps he wanted to have polygamy so he could sleep with younger women?

No. Also, read the site rules, number one in particular and be careful how you go about addressing the issue. We can discuss what various prophets did and if its from the Lord or not but be careful how you do so and what motives you might ascribe them.

This isn't an official warning or anything, just a heads up to you and others who may participate in the thread.

Also say this happened in today's times, that we felt one of our leaders was doing something for personal reasons. Do we obey or what?

Go to the Lord in prayer and ask for confirmation concerning what is happening. Same process those who had issues with polygamy but eventually accepted it as of the Lord went through.

[Soul_Searcher]

I'm in the same predicament. How do I know what a Prophet says is true given there's been so much they have taught that is now considered rubbish or has been retracted.

I basically pick the things I feel ok about and follow them. The things I feel not ok about, I don't.

Are we not blessed with the spirit of discernment?

As for Joseph Smith...the fact that he lied about much of his polygamy life says to me he was still an imperfect man and this had a lot to do with it.

[Soul_Searcher]

Dravin...I posted the same time as you...duly noted.

[TRomans]

No. Also, read the site rules, number one in particular and be careful how you go about addressing the issue. We can discuss what various prophets did and if its from the Lord or not but be careful how you do so and what motives you might ascribe them.

This isn't an official warning or anything, just a heads up to you and others who may participate in the thread.

I did not mean any disrespect to any who might/may be offended. I have been an Investigator with the Church for almost 9 months, but I still have questions. This documentary just aroused that question-it made me think when Brigham I guess said that you "you can ask for me to give up my wealth, or my time but please dont make me do this". Thats all I was asking.

I basically pick the things I feel ok about and follow them. The things I feel not ok about, I don't.

Also..Soul_Searcher, I can understand where you are coming from here. At the same time I think this can be a dangerous thing. If we started picking and choosing to follow it could be bad in the end. For example if I decided to attend Sacrament Meeting every Sunday, but chose to ignore the Word of Wisdom that is going against a core teaching of the Church. That is a bit far streched but I hope you can see what I am getting at?

lol I apologise to any, I have a hard time explaining what goes on in my head so it may sound confusing or weird.

Tyler

[volgadon]

Polygamy went against the cultural upbringing of all involved, including Joseph Smith.

There isn't evidence that he consumated most of his other marriages and I think quite a few of his wives were quite a bit older than he was.

[Dravin]

I did not mean any disrespect to any who might/may be offended.

I didn't think you did, threads like these can go that route however so I thought I'd try to head it off at the pass so to speak.

[Snow]

Hello everybody,

Earlier today I was watching the 4 hour PBS documentary entitled "The Mormons". I thought it was an interesting documentary, although I feel that they could of touched more on some parts and less on others-such as polygamy and those who still practise it-as they are not even members of the church.

Anywho my question comes on the bases of Joesph Smith calling polygamy into play. From my understanding it is that many members including Brigham Young were opposed to this idea. Smith had claimed that it was through Revelation that he had received this notion of putting polygamy back into use.

Now comes my question..Do you think that Joseph made polygamy alright in the Church for selfish reasons? That perhaps he wanted to have polygamy so he could sleep with younger women? I know Joesph Smith is/was a Prophet of God, but nonetheless he is still a man-an imperfect being.

Also say this happened in today's times, that we felt one of our leaders was doing something for personal reasons. Do we obey or what?

I hope what I am getting at makes sense, and that my question can be answered.

Thanks

Tyler

Joseph Smith may have had an over-active libido - maybe or maybe not. There's no real evidence on the matter. The evidence points towards theological motivations - he was very motivated by the idea of family and sealings, and abrahamic posterity.

[bytebear]

I think the rumors about improper relations with underage girls is far overblown. The two major issues come up with Fanny Alger and Hellen Mar Kimball.

In the case of Alger, the supposed relationship occurred in 1833, when she lived with the Smith's and got pregnant. The problem I have is that Joseph never even mentioned plural marriage until 1838, and now she is lumped in with all of his other sealings, despite no evidence that she was. Also, the child who everyone assumed was his has now been proven through DNA to not be his, so a nasty rumor of infidelity that turned out to be false is lumped into polygamy. I don't buy it.

In the case of the second example of Hellen Kimball, she was 14, and sealed to Smith, but only at the request of her father Heber C. Kimball. She never lived with Joseph and the apparent sealing was a way to link the Kimball's with the prophet in what historians call a dynastic connection. There is no evidence that she ever had any kind of marital relationship with the prophet.

As for Brigham Young, he married a lot of women, many of whom he never had children with, and was more to support husbandless women. It seems to me a pretty extreme position to take just to have relations with young women. It certainly was never in practice as it is now in the breakaway sects we hear about in the news.

[Guest]

When I was investigating the Church and I first heard of the practice of polygamy, I never had any problem understanding the Lord's purpose for it. My grandmother got widowed in World War 2 - around 1944. She had 3 kids at this time, the youngest only 4 years old. She had to send her children kicking and screaming to the nunnery because it was just impossible for her to take care of them. Women in 1944 in the Philippines have no means to support themselves as they cannot work, cannot own property, etc. etc.

Here we are talking about the 1830's - over a century earlier than World War 2. With the early history of the LDS church, I can completely feel the desperation of these faithful women who have lost their husbands in massacres, etc. I would think that the Lord desired that these women stay in LDS families and be supported by upstanding priesthood holders. It is also one way for the Church to increase in member population in so short a time before all the males get killed! Polygamy to me makes sense. But then, if you see my other posts in a different thread, I am about the only one in this planet that do not immediately attach sexual relations to a relationship between opposite genders. I have no problem understanding that many of these polygamous relationships are not for the purpose of sex but for protection.

[Moksha]

In the case of Alger, the supposed relationship occurred in 1833, when she lived with the Smith's and got pregnant. The problem I have is that Joseph never even mentioned plural marriage until 1838,

From the Wikipedia (with citation links):

According to George D. Smith, Alger's marriage to Smith may have been attested by several contemporaries at the time, including Emma Smith, Warren Parish, Oliver Cowdery, and Heber C. Kimball,[9] even though publicly the leadership of the church, including Joseph Smith and Emma, [10] denied throughout their lives that Joseph Smith had been a polygamist.[11][12][13]

-------------------------

[Ezequiel]

this can be such a stumbling block for so many people in their faith. I completely agree with Anatess on this subject. I have heard of different reasons concerning why polygamy was instituted. I don't say that any of them are doctrinal or any of them are false. But I mostly allude to the idea that poligamy was a method, set by the Lord to increase the population of the Saints.

I'm sure there were alot of mistakes made. The early saints made many mistakes in a number of ways, because of the lack of comprehension of doctrines and lack of faith - or simply the weakness of men. But we can't deny the heritage of faith they have left us behind. Joseph Smith will be held responsible before the Lord for the things he has done, and it isn't for us to make that judgement. Without a question in mind, I know that he is a prophet of God.

At any case, I think we should be placing our priority of lissening and following the prophets that we have today. They were prepared for us, and for our time. Just as Joseph was prepared for them and for their time.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Ezequiel

[Wingnut]

When I was investigating the Church and I first heard of the practice of polygamy, I never had any problem understanding the Lord's purpose for it. My grandmother got widowed in World War 2 - around 1944. She had 3 kids at this time, the youngest only 4 years old. She had to send her children kicking and screaming to the nunnery because it was just impossible for her to take care of them. Women in 1944 in the Philippines have no means to support themselves as they cannot work, cannot own property, etc. etc.

Here we are talking about the 1830's - over a century earlier than World War 2. With the early history of the LDS church, I can completely feel the desperation of these faithful women who have lost their husbands in massacres, etc. I would think that the Lord desired that these women stay in LDS families and be supported by upstanding priesthood holders. It is also one way for the Church to increase in member population in so short a time before all the males get killed! Polygamy to me makes sense. But then, if you see my other posts in a different thread, I am about the only one in this planet that do not immediately attach sexual relations to a relationship between opposite genders. I have no problem understanding that many of these polygamous relationships are not for the purpose of sex but for protection.

Very well stated. Thank you. Regarding your closing comments, you're not the only one, but there aren't too many out there.

[bytebear]

From the Wikipedia (with citation links):

According to George D. Smith, Alger's marriage to Smith may have been attested by several contemporaries at the time, including Emma Smith, Warren Parish, Oliver Cowdery, and Heber C. Kimball,[9] even though publicly the leadership of the church, including Joseph Smith and Emma, [10] denied throughout their lives that Joseph Smith had been a polygamist.[11][12][13]

-------------------------

Emma Smith denied polygamy ever with Smith, and said it was Young who started it up, but I think she may have believed in the affair (but I think she was mistaken). As to other testimonies, several church leaders after the move to Utah attempted to bolster the idea of polygamy by gathering testimonies of Smith's involvement in the practice. The Community of Christ (RLDS) historically have denied Smith's involvement completely, so it was a battle in the late 1800s as to who was right which is where I believe many of those testimonies come from. So I can see how the Alger story got made to be part of the "wives" list, but I don't believe them.

Edited July 6, 2009 by bytebear

[Justice]

There's no evidence he even slept with all his wives. I believe he didn't, especially the ones underaged.

We tend to think others see things the same way we do. It's called projecting. It is apparent from my studies that Joseph Smith hated the thought of polygamy, and he only did so because he was commanded to. Also, he knew the problem it was going to cause in the church and that's why it took him several years to make it known.

[Just_A_Guy]

Frankly, for someone of Smith's charisma and influence, there were easier ways to satisfy an active libido than to marry every hottie that came along.

[bytor2112]

Frankly, for someone of Smith's charisma and influence, there were easier ways to satisfy an active libido than to marry every hottie that came along.

Yeah right....and have you seen the pics of some of the women??!!:eek:

[Just_A_Guy]

Yeah right....and have you seen the pics of some of the women??!!:eek:

Oh, I am SO not going there . . . B)

[Moksha]

Yeah right....and have you seen the pics of some of the women??!!:eek:

I think the average standard of beauty was different throughout the 19th Century.

[rameumptom]

Even Joseph Smith was reluctant to practice polygamy. It took an angel with a sword to cause him to finally do it. The key is, God sometimes demands tough things from us. Do you think that when Abraham went to sacrifice his son, Isaac, he was following God, or just wishing to copy the pagan gods in the area, who frequently demanded the sacrifice of a child?

Those involved in plural marriage, for the vast majority of them, gained a spiritual testimony of it. Some had major visions regarding it, such as Vilate Kimball. When Heber C. Kimball was commanded to find a young wife and not tell his beloved Vilate about it (as a test), he became very ill. She asked him what was wrong, and he told her to pray about it, as he couldn't say. She saw in vision, not only Heber's second wife, but many of the wives he eventually would have. She went back to his bed, told him to get up and get married. Was it easy for either of them? No. But they were extremely faithful and obedient to God's command.

Very very few of the teachings of any of the prophets have been refuted over the years. Most of them have been viewed more as opinions, rather than official statements. At this site, the Church tells us how to know the difference between core doctrine, regular doctrine, and occasional teachings of leaders (Approaching Mormon Doctrine).

[rameumptom]

I think the average standard of beauty was different throughout the 19th Century.

Mark Twain, a major critic of Mormons and polygamy, went to SLC. He said that upon looking at the women in Salt Lake, he realized that polygamy was a kindness being shown to all the ugly women there.

[rameumptom]

Emma Smith denied polygamy ever with Smith, and said it was Young who started it up, but I think she may have believed in the affair (but I think she was mistaken). As to other testimonies, several church leaders after the move to Utah attempted to bolster the idea of polygamy by gathering testimonies of Smith's involvement in the practice. The Community of Christ (RLDS) historically have denied Smith's involvement completely, so it was a battle in the late 1800s as to who was right which is where I believe many of those testimonies come from. So I can see how the Alger story got made to be part of the "wives" list, but I don't believe them.

In the last decade or so, the Community of Christ has also begun to accept the concept that Joseph was involved in polgamy. There's just too much evidence, including the Nauvoo Expositor and the testimony of many of his wives and others who were close to the Smiths. It's hard to argue when both friends and enemies claim the same thing.

[Snow]

Emma Smith denied polygamy ever with Smith, and said it was Young who started it up, but I think she may have believed in the affair (but I think she was mistaken). As to other testimonies, several church leaders after the move to Utah attempted to bolster the idea of polygamy by gathering testimonies of Smith's involvement in the practice. The Community of Christ (RLDS) historically have denied Smith's involvement completely, so it was a battle in the late 1800s as to who was right which is where I believe many of those testimonies come from. So I can see how the Alger story got made to be part of the "wives" list, but I don't believe them.

Sticking one's head in the sand and saying I see nothing/I hear nothing is not not a very effective strategy...

[Hemidakota]

Hello everybody,

Earlier today I was watching the 4 hour PBS documentary entitled "The Mormons". I thought it was an interesting documentary, although I feel that they could of touched more on some parts and less on others-such as polygamy and those who still practise it-as they are not even members of the church.

Anywho my question comes on the bases of Joesph Smith calling polygamy into play. From my understanding it is that many members including Brigham Young were opposed to this idea. Smith had claimed that it was through Revelation that he had received this notion of putting polygamy back into use.

Now comes my question..Do you think that Joseph made polygamy alright in the Church for selfish reasons? That perhaps he wanted to have polygamy so he could sleep with younger women? I know Joesph Smith is/was a Prophet of God, but nonetheless he is still a man-an imperfect being.

Also say this happened in today's times, that we felt one of our leaders was doing something for personal reasons. Do we obey or what?

I hope what I am getting at makes sense, and that my question can be answered.

Thanks

Tyler

First stay away from any media...what is presented is not always the truth but a blend of it mixed with lies. Sound familiar with person who cast out from the Spirit world? Now, who commanded Joseph to enact this practise?

[Hemidakota]

Mark Twain, a major critic of Mormons and polygamy, went to SLC. He said that upon looking at the women in Salt Lake, he realized that polygamy was a kindness being shown to all the ugly women there.

If he looked upon his own statement, he was top of the heap when it came to ugliness.