Obama's Healthcare?? Plan

[Guest]

I STILL do not understand how ANYBODY - liberal, conservative, moderate, what-have-you - can hand over something as important as HEALTHCARE to the American government. You have NUMEROUS examples of government programs in all stages of failure and you're about to hand over another BIG ONE.

How many election cycles does it take for anybody to realize Social Security is in trouble? How many election cycles to realize Medicare is in trouble, Education is in trouble... etc. The MORE they fix it, the MORE it gets broken. And I can say this for ANY president - conservative or liberal! Look, even Bush did the No Child Left Behind and the Prescription Drug stuff. Yeah, it sounded good on paper and now it's a mess.

WHY OH WHY would you even LET them have healthcare???? You guys are NUTS!

[ADoyle90815]

I STILL do not understand how ANYBODY - liberal, conservative, moderate, what-have-you - can hand over something as important as HEALTHCARE to the American government. You have NUMEROUS examples of government programs in all stages of failure and you're about to hand over another BIG ONE.

How many election cycles does it take for anybody to realize Social Security is in trouble? How many election cycles to realize Medicare is in trouble, Education is in trouble... etc. The MORE they fix it, the MORE it gets broken. And I can say this for ANY president - conservative or liberal! Look, even Bush did the No Child Left Behind and the Prescription Drug stuff. Yeah, it sounded good on paper and now it's a mess.

WHY OH WHY would you even LET them have healthcare???? You guys are NUTS!

I actually agree, since the "Cash for Clunkers" program was too successful to the point that it ran out of money in less than a week and has been canceled. Also, Social Security isn't going to be around by the time those of us under 50 are ready to retire. I just hope that people who have health insurance that they like will be able to keep it, especially if it's better than what the government could offer.

[prospectmom]

Well, Mrs. Obama, let's see what your husband, the King said.

Was sarcasm really needed I am just stating the facts and Margin said it clearly also... The transplant program has its rules set up the President has no control in that. You seem to be very angery and you seem to want to lash out I am sorry you feel that way.......

YOu should be angery with the paid lobbyists and the money behind them..... the congress and senate who want their share of any pie offered no matter the consequences ....

[prospectmom]

I actually agree, since the "Cash for Clunkers" program was too successful to the point that it ran out of money in less than a week and has been canceled. Also, Social Security isn't going to be around by the time those of us under 50 are ready to retire. I just hope that people who have health insurance that they like will be able to keep it, especially if it's better than what the government could offer.

Actually the Cash cor Clunkers program is still going on and congress/senate has added additional 2 billion dollars to the program.

From what I read the whole idea is to help those who do not hava affordable insurance be able to afford it...... so all can have healthcare.... ideally what is the problem with that????? I know it will be messed up by congress/senate/ lobbyists etc but the idsa is good.

[farmer]

I'm with anatess. All I need to know is that the gov. is involved. This should not even be up for debate.

[Gatorman]

One of our good presidents said it well...The scariest thing for most people is a simple phrase:

'I am from the Government and I am here to help'.

[Guest]

From what I read the whole idea is to help those who do not hava affordable insurance be able to afford it...... so all can have healthcare.... ideally what is the problem with that????? I know it will be messed up by congress/senate/ lobbyists etc but the idsa is good.

prospect, I really really was not gonna say this because I enjoy your posts and would really really kick myself if you would consider me confrontational and disrespectful, which is so not what I want to portray here. But this post is very naive.

I've read all thousand-plus pages (when it was still 1018 pages) and I can assure you, the idea is completely not what you stated.

Okay, I'll give you a completely different perspective, completely separate from healthcare. I grew up in the Philippines in the time of Marcos. When there's an election, Marcos would give all "HIS" candidates tons of money to buy votes. So, my job - I worked for a campaign manager - was to staple money to a sample ballot pre-filled with the appropriate votes to hand over to voters. Then all they have to do is copy the thing onto the real ballot at the voting booth.

After reading all 1018 pages, I asked myself - what's the difference between the peso-bills I stapled to the ballot and this? The answer... nothing. The object of all 1018 pages is to make it so that on the next election cycle, people wouldn't have to think of whose name to put on the ballot. Just copy the sample ballot of the one that gave you the healthcare and you're done. Because... there is nothing in all of those 1018 pages that give you any comfort that you are actually getting healthcare reform!

[farmer]

I'm curious as to why people feel "entitled" to health care.

[MarginOfError]

MOE.......I appreciate your comments and your insight regarding the health care issue. I can't speak for anyone else, but I would say what concerns me is that we really don't know the details.......and the devil is usually in the details.

1. How much will it cost? (will we cut wasteful spending somewhere else? Doubtful)

2. Who will be paying? Everyone?

3. Who will be covered? Who won't be covered?

4. What is covered and what is not?

5. Choice of Doctor's?

6. Will we really be able to retain our private insurance?

7. What happens to private insurers and how does that affect the economy?

The list could go on. As far as the euthanasia....I think some people are concerned that if treatment is available that MAY or MAY NOT save someone, those decisions may be decided by a government panel based on cost.......ok, that probably occurs now with insurance companies. I am not completely opposed to the idea, BUT, I would sure like to see some wasteful spending cut to off-set the price tag...wouldn't you?

Honestly, Obama and the members of Congress that support this have done a lousy job of presenting the plan to a cautious and concerned public. Details, details, details.....we need details. This is way to big an issue to just ram down out throats. If they get it wrong, it could have disastrous consequences for the economy and the health and well being of all Americans.

You might actually be surprised to know that I think the way the health care debate is shaping up is entirely against my taste. I do think there would be wisdom in a federal health care program, but my interest in it stops beyond a single-payer model. That is, the government foots the bill for preventative care but has no involvement in medical decisions.

And when I say preventative care, I think it should be limited to annual physicals, maternity care, and vaccinations. You might work in standard blood work every three years, but I wouldn't do any more than that. If every citizen were able to get these routine visits, I think it would go a long way toward improving our health as a whole. Medical care beyond these needs would continue to be covered by private insurance.

But I'm with you, bytor...before we can implement that, we need to know where the money will come from. As such, I think the first step is to move health care to a model that promotes better outcomes. Specifically, we need more hospitals to move to the multi-disciplinary model that is used at the nations top hospitals. We should also discontinue our obsession with implementing the latest in technology as soon as it is made available. We're constantly pushing new devices and procedures to the forefront because they're supposed to be the next big thing in medicine, but often times, they aren't that great. For instance, minimally invasive surgeries are all the rage in medicine right now. But a lot of studies are coming out that are showing worse outcomes in the minimally invasive surgeries than in the traditional surgeries. So we're paying more for minimal invasive surgery and getting worse outcomes. It's stupid! But because it sounds more high tech, people want it.

There's a lot to be fixed in health care, and the government certainly could do a lot of good in this arena. But it absolutely must understand that any attempt to remove the responsibility for health care decisions from patients and their physicians is bound to be a travesty.

[prospectmom]

anatess.... I am not naive and your comments are totally right.... I wish there was an answer...

Farmer.... I do not feel entitled to healthcare but feel the need and desire for affordable insurance . We paid insurance for 7 years and hardly a visit then my husband was laid off, the cobra was so unaffordable it was rediculous. Then my daughter got sick and we ended up in the ER 3 times in the space of 2 months . We also went to a community Health Care Center where we paid a sliding scale.. that was nice but we now have over 3 thousand dollars in medical bills. so I see a problem with the insurance industry as it stands.

[Guest]

Farmer.... I do not feel entitled to healthcare but feel the need and desire for affordable insurance . We paid insurance for 7 years and hardly a visit then my husband was laid off, the cobra was so unaffordable it was rediculous. Then my daughter got sick and we ended up in the ER 3 times in the space of 2 months . We also went to a community Health Care Center where we paid a sliding scale.. that was nice but we now have over 3 thousand dollars in medical bills. so I see a problem with the insurance industry as it stands.

Prospect... from this post, I see your problem is not with the insurance industry. It is with the government. It is the government that married health insurance with employers and limited insurance coverage in the state you live in... and this will even get worse with the new bill.

I was in your position a while back. Because, I left my employment to go on self-employment. But, it was a blessing for me because, if I didn't lose my insurance (there was no way I was gonna pay 800 bucks a month for Cobra!), I wouldn't have done any research on available insurance coverages in the State of Florida. I found out about the BCBSFL Individual Hospital and Surgical plan which was perfect for my family! $135 a month for a family of 4! And I became eligible to carry a Health Savings Account. Of course, the BCBSFL Hospital and Surgical plan is only available in Florida (although, I'm sure other states have this flavor of insurance somewhere) and it is only available for Individuals (not employed people). This could have been something that would have worked for you as well!

So, see the suggestions below to improve healthcare that I snagged from my post on a previous healthcare thread. The suggestions below is something I could support in a health reform bill. Especially, check out the suggestion to separate health insurance from employment...

Here are my proposals:

SUGGESTION #1:

First, standardize insurance policies. (Government should NOT be allowed to join the fray, as it's not their right or responsibility.) Now, when I say "standardize", I mean that there should be a conglomerate that creates maybe a dozen different insurance plans. And those plans are the standard that ALL insurance companies use. This way WE, as consumers, can pit company against company - apples to apples - and compare pricing and performance.

SUGGESTION #2:

Open the state borders for insurance. It's ridiculous that we have to be state specific. It inhibits competition while promoting high costs and less accountability.

SUGGESTION #3:

Put some controls on lawsuits. Litigation needs to exist for those whose lives are destroyed via incompetence, but do a google search on awards and you'll find story after story of people who've won millions and millions of dollars for, shall we say, "questionable" wrongs???

By curbing this, the doctors will spend less on malpractice insurance. It will also reduce "defensive medicine" where doctors are running unnecessary tests to as standard CYA.

SUGGESTION #4:

Have some sort of oversight committee (that is comprised of medical/legal/insurance professionals) that does nothing but audit performance of medical practitioners. Let THEM keep the doctors on their toes to do what's right and to keep things in financial check.

SUGGESTION #5:

Reform Medicaid. I won't pretend to know HOW on this one, as it's a Hydra at this point... but perhaps make some adjustment that allows for temporary coverage of those who can PROVE they haven't the assets to afford TRULY CRUCIAL medical care.

FINALLY! A great shift in this here thread! Solutions!

Okay, let me add my 2 cents:

SUGGESTION #1 is good. I would love it all a'la carte. Just like buying a car - I'm healthy, non-smoker, non-drinker, so I'd like the el-cheapo Honda base insurance without french fries for $100 a month - I pay my own doctor's visits and prescriptions, you cover hospital and surgical. But my mother had a history of breast cancer, so add the Honda premium cancer package for $100 more a month. I'm only tied to the insurance for 1 year since it is an el-cheapo Honda base package. So, if Honda doesn't perform to my satisfaction, I can exchange it for a Chevy next year.

Of course, this necessitates people to KNOW everything they need to know about health insurance and how it works and be RESPONSIBLE. There is no "safety net" for ignorance - oh, I didn't know it didn't cover maternity! And here the girl is pregnant...

So, yeah, I wouldn't mind the government providing healthcare education.

SUGGESTION #2 and #3 are a MUST.

SUGGESTION #4 already exists. It's called the American Medical Association. You don't want legal people in there unless you have #3 firmly in place.

That's what happened in Florida. FMA lobby was able to introduce a bill that limits the amount of money a lawyer can make out of mal-practice lawsuits - this was in the hopes that ambulance chasers will not be able to make it worth their while. The Florida Lawyers lobby countered with 2 bills - 3 strikes and you're out bill (3 mal-practice incidents and you lose your license to practice medicine in florida) - and the open records bill - where the AMA will have to release all their peer-to-peer investigations to the public. This made the lives of doctors hell - because now, the Florida Lawyers can pick any AMA investigations of their peers and make it into a lawsuit. And with the 3-strikes and you're out bill (with Floridians track record of anti-doctor sentiment), doctors will not risk going to court but would, instead, go for settlement - Lawyers win!

Floridians didn't bother to research the 3 bills - they said YES to all of them. So, yeah, Lawyers paradise in Florida. You will not find too many good doctors in Florida anymore. And at the same time, FMA stopped their peer to peer investigations to eliminate the risk of providing fodder for frivolous lawsuits... so patients lose.

SUGGESTION #5... definitely. I don't know how to get that done either besides stop spending the money on non-medicaid programs. From what I understand, the Medicaid tax dollars are "borrowed" by other non-medicaid related programs so that it doesn't even have the luxury of gaining interest besides the rate of inflation.

My additions:

SUGGESTION #6. Keep healthcare and employers separate. Currently, there is a tax haven for those who purchase their health insurance through their company. I say, make health insurance tax deductible whether it is purchased through the company or not. This way, employees can use healthcare benefits as a TRUE comparative benefit between employers. And, employees can opt out of restrictive choices of employer-supplied healthcare - cash the benefit in - and purchase their own private insurance. And, if they lose their jobs, they don't have to lose their insurance.

SUGGESTION #7. Make HSA's even better. I LOVE HSA's! Right now, you can only have it if you have a high deductible or "el-cheapo Honda" insurance. I say, make it available for everybody just like the IRA's!

SUGGESTION #8. Open up the VA for the poor and downtrodden. Citizenship or legal residency required, of course. Or, instead of opening up the VA... make their own VA version... state-run. Eligibility requirements to be state-provided.

Edited July 31, 2009 by anatess

[Wingnut]

And when I say preventative care, I think it should be limited to annual physicals, maternity care, and vaccinations. You might work in standard blood work every three years, but I wouldn't do any more than that. If every citizen were able to get these routine visits, I think it would go a long way toward improving our health as a whole. Medical care beyond these needs would continue to be covered by private insurance.

Mammograms?

[rameumptom]

If you are going to get the government involved in largesse, then the Cash For Clunkers program is the way to do it. You give the incentive to the people, and let them choose where they are going to use it. No need to directly bail out GM/Chrysler. Just give a few billion in rebates for buying new cars, and you'll see a big stimulus in the economy occur.

Offer to pay off $50,000 on every mortgage, with 12 months no payments, and you'll see everyone buying stuff again. And staying in their homes, which will suddenly have regained value.

[Churchmouse]

Thank you to whichever mod edited the derogatory "King" out of the thread title.

Yes, censorship is wonderful. I hear they were crazy about it in Nazi Germany and the former Soviet Union.

[FunkyTown]

Yes, censorship is wonderful. I hear they were crazy about it in Nazi Germany and the former Soviet Union.

Yes. If there's one thing the Nazis and the Soviets were crazy about, it was the right of individuals to decide what they will and won't allow on private property, such as this website.

I... Wait... Wait... I'm totally wrong. The Nazis and Soviets didn't allow private citizens to decide whether or not propaganda would be allowed in their homes. I don't know why I would say such a thing, 'cause it's so wrong. Man, I need to stop making false comparisons.

[Palerider]

They found out that Sen Dodd has prostate cancer....instead of going to Canada or Europe for his operation, since the medical care is better there....he is going to have the surgery here in the states.....then he will be back to help overhaul our poor system....:huh:

[Bob_Blaylock]

If you are going to get the government involved in largesse, then the Cash For Clunkers program is the way to do it.

I was thinking, a few days ago, about the “Cash for Clunkers” scam. It seems to me that there is a very obvious, fatal flaw in it, as far as the idea that it can help the economy.

The idea is to get people to buy new cars, thus spurring the manufacture and sale of these new cars. More cars being manufactured creates more wealth, and that's good for the economy.

But to get people to buy new cars, older cars that are still perfectly fine are being bought up and DESTROYED. Think about what this means. A car that is reliable, and in good running condition, is a valuable asset, representing a significant amount of wealth. For many people, their car is the most valuable single asset that they own.

When a car is destroyed, IT IS WEALTH THAT IS BEING DESTROYED, and that is bad for the economy. In fact, I bet that the wealth that is being thus destroyed in the form of these cars is greater than the wealth that is being created in the process of manufacturing and selling new cars to replace them.

[farmer]

copied and pated this. Some of the cotent is a couple pages off but I did not check all pages, just a few

Contact your Representatives and let them know how you feel about this…Another 500 pages to go. Below are a few of the items that are downright unconstitutional

· Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure!

· Page 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed!

· Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process).

· Page 42: The "Health Choices Commissioner" will decide health benefits for you. You will have no choice. None.

· Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services.

· Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard.

· Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.

· Page 65: Taxpayers will subsidize all union retiree and community organizer health plans (read: SEIU, UAW and ACORN).

· Page 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to participate in a Healthcare Exchange.

· Page 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare Exchange (i.e., total government control of private plans).

· Page 91: Government mandates linguistic infrastructure for services; translation: illegal aliens.

· Page 95: The Government will pay ACORN and Americorps to sign up individuals for Government-run Health Care plan.

· Page 102: Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled: you have no choice in the matter.

· Page 124: No company can sue the government for price-fixing. No "judicial review" is permitted against the government monopoly. Put simply, private insurers will be crushed.

· Page 127: The AMA sold doctors out: the government will set wages.

· Page 145: An employer MUST auto-enroll employees into the government-run public plan. No alternatives.

· Page 126: Employers MUST pay healthcare bills for part-time employees AND their families.

· Page 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays an 8% tax on payroll.

· Page 150: Any employer with a payroll of $250K-400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays a 2 to 6% tax on payroll.

· Page 167: Any individual who doesn’t' have acceptable healthcare (according to the government) will be taxed 2.5% of income.

· Page 170: Any NON-RESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes (Americans will pay for them).

· Page 195: Officers and employees of Government Healthcare Bureaucracy will have access to ALL American financial and personal records.

· Page 203: "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax." Yes, it really says that.

· Page 239: Bill will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors and the poor most affected."

· Page 241: Doctors: no matter what specialty you have, you'll all be paid the same.

· Page 253: Government sets value of doctors' time, their professional judgment, etc.

· Page 265: Government mandates and controls productivity for private healthcare industries.

· Page 268: Government regulates rental and purchase of power-driven wheelchairs.

· Page 272: Cancer patients: welcome to the wonderful world of rationing!

· Page 280: Hospitals will be penalized for what the government deems preventable re-admissions.

· Page 298: Doctors: if you treat a patient during an initial admission that results in a readmission, you will be penalized by the government.

· Page 317: Doctors: you are now prohibited for owning and investing in healthcare companies!

· Page 318: Prohibition on hospital expansion. Hospitals cannot expand without government approval.

· Page 321: Hospital expansion hinges on "community" input: in other words, yet another payoff for ACORN.

· Page 335: Government mandates establishment of outcome-based measures: i.e., rationing.

· Page 341: Government has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans, HMOs, etc.

· Page 354: Government will restrict enrollment of SPECIAL NEEDS individuals.

· Page 379: More bureaucracy: Telehealth Advisory Committee (healthcare by phone).

· Page 425: More bureaucracy: Advance Care Planning Consult: Senior Citizens, assisted suicide, euthanasia?

· Page 425: Government will instruct and consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney, etc. Mandatory. Appears to lock in estate taxes ahead of time.

· Page 425: Government provides approved list of end-of-life resources, guiding you in death.

· Page 427: Government mandates program that orders end-of-life treatment; government dictates how your life ends.

· Page 429: Advance Care Planning Consult will be used to dictate treatment as patient's health deteriorates. This can include an ORDER for end-of-life plans. An ORDER from the GOVERNMENT.

· Page 430: Government will decide what level of treatments you may have at end-of-life.

· Page 469: Community-based Home Medical Services: more payoffs for ACORN.

· Page 472: Payments to Community-based organizations: more payoffs for ACORN.

· Page 489: Government will cover marriage and family therapy. Government intervenes in your marriage.

Page 494: Government will cover mental health services: defining, creating and rationing those services.

[Maureen]

Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services.

This line jumped out at me as probably not credible. This is what I found:

PolitiFact | No free health care for illegal immigrants in the health bill

M.

[farmer]

This is the copy that was referenced. http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/20090714/aahca.pdf

There are several different versions I think out there. This one comes from Pelosi's site. I have done some more digging and to be fair I would say that the guy that did this list probably read into it a bit in some places but then again I don't speak legaleese.

[Palerider]

This is interesting....I read on line from a European newspaper that the Dr's are upset because the gov't has cut their hrs...they went from something like 54hrs down to 48hrs a week. This might seem like a big deal to us but the concern was....if they have a outbreak of swine flu...they will have enough Dr's to keep up with the demand.

Aaahh yes...nothing like the Gov't being involved in healthcare.

[Dr T]

I read something about the government wanting full direct access to our bank account info too "for the health care system."

[jadams_4040]

The more I see about this the more it looks like we are on the road to elderly euthanasia. This may not bother the younger members here, but it should.These things take place a little at a time. It may not effect older people like myself, but 30 or so years down the road a government official may decide when and whom is obsolete. If we were to go back sixty years did people believe there would be a day when unborn children lives could be terminated with the governments blessing?

As for the King part. I believe that Obama believes himself to the the King of the United States. A king's decisions are not questioned and are carried out without debate. He did this with the economy. Elected officials didn't even get a chance to read the package before it was voted on. Now we are finding out what it contained. I'm seeing his style now. Push things through the Democratic controlled Senate and House as quickly as possible. He finally hit a wall with this Healthcare Plan of his and it's the "blue dog" Democrats that stopped him. His sky high popularity has vanished and people , on both sides of the aisle, are beginning to question their choice.

Now that I'm retired I get free healthcare through the Veterans Administration. I pay $250 a month for my wife, and have a $5,000 deductable, but I prefer that to what the govenment is offering.

i think its quite obvious yu really should start to learn more of the facts and not take right wing talk shows for the complete gospel.:)

[Palerider]

i think its quite obvious yu really should start to learn more of the facts and not take right wing talk shows for the complete gospel.:)

why of course....we already know the Left wingers would never lie about anything.....:o

[Guest]

Okay, there's a time for Right Wing versus Left Wing, Republicans versus Democrats, Conservatives versus Liberals but I don't think this is the right time for it... I would like to suggest we take all this out of this here thread so that we can truly address the issue at hand with eyes solely for the benefit of the American people without regard for political affiliation. Think we can do that?

It's difficult enough to understand the impacts of this healthcare reform bill without clouding the waters with kool-aid from both sides of the political spectrum.