Is our faith historical?

[Hemidakota]

Can anyone explain to me what is up with Hill Cumorah?

Anthony W. Ivins (and numerous others) stated the correct location was in fact the NY Hill Cumorah.. but it's pretty obvious that's not entirely truthful. I understand that the 'geography' of the BoM isn't known but we can rule out most areas to give us a general idea.. south of the U.S

Joseph Smith never called that hill Cumorah. It was the body of members who gave it the name Cumorah. Try Meso America for the hill site.

Those who seek with desire to know the BoM geological area can find it...

[Guest Believer_1829]

Joseph Smith never called that hill Cumorah. It was the body of members who gave it the name Cumorah. Try Meso America for the hill site.

Those who seek with desire to know the BoM geological area can find it...

I gave a similar response to the OP's question in one of my posts that was completely ignored for the sake of attacking me for pointing out the blatantly obvious about the OP.

[mnn727]

Just because something has not been found, does not mean it does not exist. The middle East has a dry arid climate, good for preserving artifacts, bones etc. The American continant does not have a dry arid climate for the most part and where many Mormons believe the BoM happened is a rain forest where many things rot in years and decades.

Edited August 13, 2009 by mnn727

[Guest Believer_1829]

Not important at all, Our worship is based on what the Lord has revealed to this people in these days. It make no difference what Adam or Noah or Peter, James and John did. Zero bearing at all since the Lord has given us our instructions through His Prophets and Apostles.

I would disagree...

The teachings and practices of ancient Prophets and Apostles absolutely should make a difference to us, else of what use are the scriptures? For what purpose were they given?

I believe the 2 Nephi verse in my signature with all my heart.

[NeuroTypical]

Is our faith based upon something historical?

What a strange question. No, if you're basing a belief system on historical fact, it's not faith. I don't need to have faith that Egypt used to be run by pharoas, for example. Christian faith is based on the reality and divinity of Christ - something that no archaeological record will ever prove.

We read about the battle that took place at the hill called kumorah, over a million people died on this small hill and not one piece of archelogical evidence has been found to support this.

Consider the difference between archaeological evidence, and conclusive archaeological evidence. Plenty of the first has been found, almost none of the second.

And last but not least is that DNA evidence proves that the native americans are from east asia. This same DNA evidence is used to put criminals behend bars, would count the book of mormon as a fraudalent book.

That claim is a damnable lie propagated by people who have been soundly denounced by real live DNA scientists. My advice - take a week or two and pour through these resources:

The Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship - DNA criticism response page

These are sincere questions, that I believe are worth looking into.

Well, they were sincere questions a decade ago, before anyone responded to them. Now the responses are out there, and they're good responses. So today, these questions are only indicative of ignorance, sincere or not.

LM

[mnn727]

I would disagree...

The teachings and practices of ancient Prophets and Apostles absolutely should make a difference to us, else of what use are the scriptures? For what purpose were they given?

.

They are useful for instruction, but not as an example for our current form of worship, just because Abraham sacrificed lambs doesn't mean we should. Just because John the Baptist lived in the wilderness and ate locusts and honey doesn't mean all Christians should.

After reading the OP further I realize he/she was not talking about worship and changed my post to reflect that they were talking about 'proof"

Proof elimainates the need for faith.

[hordak]

Is our faith based upon something historical? Very important question to ask ourselves. I have been researching for ancient documents or archeological evidence to support the stories that the young joseph smith wrote about in the book of mormon. Joseph stated that the Nephites were people of great writings and record keeping. But we dont have a single ancient papyrus or scroll or even a fragment of this history prior to 1830. With the Bible we have the dead sea scrolls which reveal that the ancient writings of old are accurate with the kjv Bible we still have today. Dead Sea scrolls - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We read about the battle that took place at the hill called kumorah, over a million people died on this small hill and not one piece of archelogical evidence has been found to support this. Also it has been proven that the native american people came from east asia, and migrated down from their. If you look at pictures of the peoples from east asia and compare it to the native americans you can clearly see the resemblance, also the archeology of native americans shows simularities between the people. And last but not least is that DNA evidence proves that the native americans are from east asia. This same DNA evidence is used to put criminals behend bars, would count the book of mormon as a fraudalent book. Have you ever been to zerehemlah,ancient bountiful? Nobody has, these cities do not exist. But we can go to Jerusalem,Bethlaham,the sea of Galilee, and all the cities the Bible speaks of.

These are sincere questions, that I believe are worth looking into. If someone has some evidence please let me know.

Many Blessings!

I have never understood this argument. Iliad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia is an ancient writing that is accurate with the books we have today. The places are real, you can visit Troy, Ithaca, and Sparta today, yet very few people worship Zeus and Poseidon based on the historical accuracy of the geography in this ancient text.

Point isn't to bad mouth the bible, but that worshiping a God based on the ancient followers geography knowledge in not the best idea. Just saying

[bmy-]

Joseph Smith never called that hill Cumorah. It was the body of members who gave it the name Cumorah. Try Meso America for the hill site.

Those who seek with desire to know the BoM geological area can find it...

On the top of the mound were stones which presented the appearance of

three altars having been erected one above the other, according to the

ancient order; and the remains of bones were strewn over the surface of

the ground. The brethren procured a shovel and a hoe, and removing the

earth to the depth of about one foot, discovered the skeleton of a man,

almost entire, and between his ribs the stone point of a Lamanitish arrow,

which evidently produced his death. Elder Burr Riggs retained the arrow.

The contemplation of the scenery around us produced peculiar sensations in

our bosoms: and subsequently the visions of the past being opened to my

understanding by the Spirit of the Almighty, I discovered that the person

whose skeleton was before us was a white Lamanite, a large, thick-set man,

and a man of God. His name was Zelph. He was a warrior and chieftain under

the great prophet Onandagus, who was known from the Hill Cumorah, or

eastern sea to the Rocky mountains. The curse was taken from Zelph, or, at

least, in part--one of his thigh bones was broken by a stone flung from a

sling, while in battle, years before his death. He was killed in battle by

the arrow found among his ribs, during the last great struggle of the

Lamanites and Nephites.

History of the Church, 1948 ed., vol. 2, pp. 79–80

Bishops

“Attention Called To ‘Book of Mormon’ Maps”

Our attention has been brought in the past few weeks to certain “Book of Mormon Lands” maps which are being offered

to Church leaders and auxiliary workers by a California organization. They are apparently being distributed free of

charge.

We wish to refer bishops to the printed matter at the bottom of the map, which contains an inference that there are two,

rather than one, Hills Cumorah — one in Mexico as well as the one in New York.

The Church has never accepted this contention.

Bishops are requested to make cognizant of this discrepancy those in their wards who might be sending for these maps or

using them for instructional purposes. This concept of two Cumorahs should not be taught as official Church doctrine

The Messenger, July 1960, No. 51.

Also mentioned was.. (Well known that Olvier Cowdery believed and spoke of Hill Cumorah being in NY)

Later, during the Nauvoo period of the Church, and again under the direction of the Prophet Joseph Smith, these same letters by Oliver Cowdery, were published in the Times and Seasons, without any thought of correction had this description of the Hill Cumorah been an error.

There's some discussion to this.

Edited August 13, 2009 by bmy-

[deseretgov]

I think Zelph is a really interesting figure. It's also interesting that the government keeps the exact location of the mound, where Zelph was found, a secret.

[Moksha]

Attacking something for how it is said, rather than what was said, seems the stuff of apologetics.

My answer to Michael220, is that our beliefs do not have to be based on historical truth or accuracy. That which is symbolic in and of itself is worthy of praise and faith. Symbolic truths can help guide and add meaning to our lives.

:)

[Moksha]

I think Zelph is a really interesting figure. It's also interesting that the government keeps the exact location of the mound, where Zelph was found, a secret.

Sometimes I think the great Zelph coverup had been maintained so long by the government that it has lost it usefulness. After all, the Book of Zelph has already been published. Go figure.

[deseretgov]

After all, the Book of Zelph has already been published. Go figure.

True. Even the government cannot cover up the truth that is contained in the Book of Zelph!

[JohnnyRudick]

By the way:eek:

What ever happened to our friend Michael220?

Bro. Rudick

[deseretgov]

He turned into Michael221?

[JohnnyRudick]

They are useful for instruction, but not as an example for our current form of worship, just because Abraham sacrificed lambs doesn't mean we should. Just because John the Baptist lived in the wilderness and ate locusts and honey doesn't mean all Christians should.

After reading the OP further I realize he/she was not talking about worship and changed my post to reflect that they were talking about 'proof"

Proof elimainates the need for faith.

There is a big difference between Abraham sacrificing a lamb the Lord;

1. as a Sacrifice to God.

or/and

A picture of the Sacrifice for sin and the ultimate Sacrifice for Sin.

And

2. John the Baptist living out in the wilderness on a subsistence life,

existing on what was at hand.

Right?

Bro. Rudick

Edited August 14, 2009 by JohnnyRudick
Forgot my "2" ;-)

[bytebear]

For what it's worth, Genghis Khan lived from 1162–1227 AD. We know he lived, and we know he had palaces in China.

On October 6, 2004, a joint Japanese-Mongolian archaeological dig uncovered what is believed to be Genghis Khan's palace in rural Mongolia, which raises the possibility of actually locating the ruler's long-lost burial site. There is no archaeological evidence of any of his hoards of armies.

In other words, even knowing where his palace should be, archaeologists don't really know if what they found is it.

Now, you want to presume it should be easy to find such places mentioned in the Book of Mormon, that existed centuries earlier, and in a geographical area massively larger than the area in the previous example?

Food for thought.

[Michael220]

Hello Maxel.

I love the passage of scripture you posted, (Matt 15:16-17) and I agree with it. But, Jesus also said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life! John 14:6. So in a whole we cant throw out truth and research for an experience alone. We are told "Test all things" 1 Thessalonians 5:21

Since Jesus is the "truth" that would mean history would honestly expose any scripture we had that came from Him. So if the history is false, it cannot reveal Jesus, because He is the Truth!

[Michael220]

Hey Johnny, Im here. I have been working many hours. Checked this thread out and saw all the responses. Ha, looks like im going to be busy in here for a while. Many Blessings!

[Michael220]

see:

"Debating the Foundations of Mormonism: The Book of Mormon and Archaeology

2. Ancient Writing

Another fact obvious that September day was that some ancient Americans were literate, a ludicrous claim for anyone in upstate New York to make in 1827. We now know of at least six Mesoamerican writing systems that predate the Christian era. This should count for something, but it is not enough for dedicated skeptics. They demand to see reformed Egyptian, preferably on gold pages, and to find traces of the Hebrew language. There are leads on both, but nothing conclusive yet. New scripts are still being discovered, and many texts remain undeciphered. I was just in a meeting two weeks' ago in Guatemala City where a scholar presented evidence, then just a few hours' old, that Maya writing dates back to 400 BC instead of AD 300. The origins of Mesoamerican writing is a topic that is just taking off, so we can expect new scientific revelations in the coming year. This example of an early script was recovered 57 years ago and qualifies as America's earliest writing sample, but so far nothing much has been made of it, and most scholars have forgotten that it exists.

3. The Arts of War

The golden plates ended up in New York because the Nephites were exterminated in a cataclysmic battle. The Book of Mormon account brims with warfare and nasty people. Until 20 years ago the book's claims on this matter were ridiculed. Now that Maya writing can be read, warfare appears to have been a Mesoamerican pastime.

etc. etc., you can read the entire link

not one piece huh? try again.

see:

Book of Mormon/Warfare - FAIRMormon

try again.

Topical Guide/Book of Mormon/Archaeology and the Book of Mormon/DNA and the Book of Mormon - FAIRMormon

Maya murals are surfacing which clearly depict dark skinned and light skinned people.

from:

More Amazing Photos - Book of Mormon Evidences - LDS Scriptures Supported by Science

have you ever been to mesoamerica? the cities exist.

If you are serious about researching this stuff, read through the fair site, LDS FAIR Apologetics Homepage read through farms, read through Mormon Truth and Book of Mormon Evidences: Not Proof, But Indications of Plausibility as a start if you want. These are all quesitons that have been answered.

or, I should say, they have been answered to the same extent that they have been answered for the Bible. (The same types of issues/questions can be asked of both books)

not one piece huh? try again.

see:

Book of Mormon/Warfare - FAIRMormon

Hey I looked at this mayan piece. Im sorry I dont understand the value of it supporting a Jewish migration though. It's clear their are "mayan" ruins in south america. No one is denying this. But the problem lies with the fact that their is no "Hebrew" similiarities. All the ruins down in that area are full of "pagan" artifacts. Also none of the writings depict any linguistical similiarities with the Hebrew tongue. Again, their is no historical evidence of any cities named, "Zerehemlah Bountiful" etc. Palenque has no record of being called these names.

The Majority of cities recorded in the Bible still have their original name, from thousands of years ago. When cities change names their is a history kept of it.

I appreciate your post, but im sorry. I dont see anything with any evidence to even show that a people called the "nephites" existed.

Also the Hill Cummorah, 1 million people dying in a battle, that is almost equivalent to taking all the people in the Salt Lake Valley and having them pass away on one relatively small hill and their not being one piece of evidence later. This is impossible. How could it be?

Many Blessings to you.

Michael................

not one piece huh? try again.

see:

Book of Mormon/Warfare - FAIRMormon

John 8:32

And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." NKJV

[Michael220]

Hey I looked at this mayan piece. Im sorry I dont understand the value of it supporting a Jewish migration though. It's clear their are "mayan" ruins in south america. No one is denying this. But the problem lies with the fact that their is no "Hebrew" similiarities. All the ruins down in that area are full of "pagan" artifacts. Also none of the writings depict any linguistical similiarities with the Hebrew tongue. Again, their is no historical evidence of any cities named, "Zerehemlah Bountiful" etc. Palenque has no record of being called these names.

The Majority of cities recorded in the Bible still have their original name, from thousands of years ago. When cities change names their is a history kept of it.

I appreciate your post, but im sorry. I dont see anything with any evidence to even show that a people called the "nephites" existed.

Also the Hill Cummorah, 1 million people dying in a battle, that is almost equivalent to taking all the people in the Salt Lake Valley and having them pass away on one relatively small hill and their not being one piece of evidence later. This is impossible. How could it be?

Many Blessings to you.

Michael................

not one piece huh? try again.

see:

Book of Mormon/Warfare - FAIRMormon

John 8:32

And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." NKJV

[Guest Believer_1829]

not one piece huh? try again.

see:

Book of Mormon/Warfare - FAIRMormon

Hey I looked at this mayan piece. Im sorry I dont understand the value of it supporting a Jewish migration though. It's clear their are "mayan" ruins in south america. No one is denying this. But the problem lies with the fact that their is no "Hebrew" similiarities. All the ruins down in that area are full of "pagan" artifacts. Also none of the writings depict any linguistical similiarities with the Hebrew tongue. Again, their is no historical evidence of any cities named, "Zerehemlah Bountiful" etc. Palenque has no record of being called these names.

The Majority of cities recorded in the Bible still have their original name, from thousands of years ago. When cities change names their is a history kept of it.

I appreciate your post, but im sorry. I dont see anything with any evidence to even show that a people called the "nephites" existed.

Also the Hill Cummorah, 1 million people dying in a battle, that is almost equivalent to taking all the people in the Salt Lake Valley and having them pass away on one relatively small hill and their not being one piece of evidence later. This is impossible. How could it be?

Many Blessings to you.

Michael................

not one piece huh? try again.

see:

Book of Mormon/Warfare - FAIRMormon

John 8:32

And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." NKJV

That's the problem when you don't know the internal history of the book you are trying to discredit.... you don't know what too look for and don't recognize evidence when you see it.

Keep reading the thread the "Hill Cumorah" question is answered.

[Guest Believer_1829]

Some links...

He Walked the Americas

Amazon.com: He Walked the Americas (9780964499706): L. Taylor Hansen: Books

[Guest Believer_1829]

Videos to watch...

[Elgama]

I'm agreeing with the view no my faith is no historical. My religion has some historical and archaeological merit but my Faith is centered on that personal relationship with God

The Book of Mormon is a document so in that sense its historical lol History is the written word and archaeology is physical evidence. For me the most important evidence in my religion is what President Monson has said at latest session of conference

-Charley

Edited August 15, 2009 by Elgama

[Snow]

Is our faith based upon something historical? Very important question to ask ourselves. I have been researching for ancient documents or archeological evidence to support the stories that the young joseph smith wrote about in the book of mormon. Joseph stated that the Nephites were people of great writings and record keeping. But we dont have a single ancient papyrus or scroll or even a fragment of this history prior to 1830. With the Bible we have the dead sea scrolls which reveal that the ancient writings of old are accurate with the kjv Bible we still have today. Dead Sea scrolls - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We read about the battle that took place at the hill called kumorah, over a million people died on this small hill and not one piece of archelogical evidence has been found to support this. Also it has been proven that the native american people came from east asia, and migrated down from their. If you look at pictures of the peoples from east asia and compare it to the native americans you can clearly see the resemblance, also the archeology of native americans shows simularities between the people. And last but not least is that DNA evidence proves that the native americans are from east asia. This same DNA evidence is used to put criminals behend bars, would count the book of mormon as a fraudalent book. Have you ever been to zerehemlah,ancient bountiful? Nobody has, these cities do not exist. But we can go to Jerusalem,Bethlaham,the sea of Galilee, and all the cities the Bible speaks of.

These are sincere questions, that I believe are worth looking into. If someone has some evidence please let me know.

Many Blessings!

Excellent questions, very good. I am not a Book of Mormon expert so unfortunately I do not have a lot to offer. But you do mention the Bible. What historical evidence exists for, let's start at the beginning, the accounts described by Genesis?

2nd request