Are we approaching another revolution?

[Jbs2763]

As we are watching this healthcare reform debate spread across the US. It is seeming that the people are very much on the same page, alot of them in not wanting the goverment to control the healthcare, the people are uniting and speaking out against the government, such is protected under the 1st amendment, and principles this country was FOUNDED upon. I saw a clip in where Alren Spectot sentator from PA, said the following

"We can't let town hall meetings dominate the political process, that would be destructive to what we need to do to figure out what is the best approach..." /QUOTE]

Is that not DISGUSTING????

If he'd of said that in 1775 wearing a powdered wig? how would WE the PUBLIC of reacted to that???? What would Thomas Payne said about it? Benjamin Franklin? These people are wanting to take over the country, and not make the voice of the people imporatant, Town Hall meetings are what started the movement for independence. THE BIG QUESTION IS...will the colective WE remember all of this next November? probably not...but that is the only way we can get real CHANGE is to throw all these....*poopyheads* out of office...some of these guys are in the senate and congress for 60 years!!!!!!

I really don't like where we are headed as a country, I think we are headed towards disaster...

To quote the man eleceted President...

"You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them...And they fell through the Clinton Administration, and the Bush Administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not.

And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations." Barrack Hussien Obama/QUOTE]

yeah, thats me I'll gladly cling to God and my guns while you steer this great ship called America into the dirt......

btw..here is the clip that set me off

YouTube - Specter: Health care protesters dont represent America

Edited August 17, 2009 by Jbs2763
spacing

[boyando]

To answer your question, yes we are. Isn't that what was meant by "change".

[prisonchaplain]

No. We're not headed for revolution. Already, healthcare reform is transforming. We're an independent lot, not given to full-blown socialism. But, conditions do not come close to provoking revolution today. Rather, we may travel this leftist road for a few years, and then see a renewed "classic liberal" swing (i.e. towards semi-conservative, semi-Libertarian approaches).

America is mostly moderate, but deep down we favor freedom over controls, opportunity over modest certainties.

[FunkyTown]

To answer your question, yes we are. Isn't that what was meant by "change".

This is an interesting question - Is the United States headed for a civil war?

Asking that question says a lot more about the person asking the question than it does about the current political climate. It generally says that the asker is willing to take up arms against their own government if things get bad enough.

This is definitely an economic issue. Interestingly, what is happening in the USA happened pretty much exactly in Athens, when the wealthy landowners refused to budge as they felt their rights were being removed and the poor masses pushed for land reform.

It did end up with a massive wealth distribution plan and managed to save Athens... At least for a few decades.

[hordak]

I don't think our country is set up in a way where it could happen. Too many different groups, with different agenda. In fact it wouldn't surprise my to find out the idea of diversity is meant to keep us divided. We have representative government and the leaders are people who we elected. How do you revolt against the people you put in office? People who have the chance to lose that office every 4 years.

[boyando]

No. We're not headed for revolution. Already, healthcare reform is transforming. We're an independent lot, not given to full-blown socialism. But, conditions do not come close to provoking revolution today. Rather, we may travel this leftist road for a few years, and then see a renewed "classic liberal" swing (i.e. towards semi-conservative, semi-Libertarian approaches).

America is mostly moderate, but deep down we favor freedom over controls, opportunity over modest certainties.

The question then becomes (I know I'm going to hear a lot from the classic Bush hating crowd for this one) does the current government, by the people and for the people, believe that they are smarter than the people, and therefore not subject to the people? To me it appears that way.

So I see a revolution coming. Will it be a classic revolution, were the people take up arms? I doubt it. Who knows what it will look like.

And I would disagree that Americans are moderate. I believe that they are compassionate. And if presented with the facts, have and always will do the "right" thing (you like how I put a plug in for the right?).

[bytor2112]

IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

Are we there yet? No. Thankfully no. But political unrest is good and may free us from some of the idiots in Congress.....both sides of the aisle.

[Moksha]

Is that not DISGUSTING????

Positively REVOLTING!!!

[Guest Godless]

Obama promised health care reform when he was running for office. If a significant number of Americans were truly opposed to this, he wouldn't have been elected. I honestly don't believe that the anti-reformists are nearly as strong or as numerous as they appear to be. Their voice has been amplified by the media, which is the only reason why they appear to have any legitimacy.

Conservatives just can't seem to get over the fact that they've found themselves in the exact same position that American liberals were in for the 8 years preceding Obama. No revolution took place under Bush, and no revolution is going to take place under Obama. This is a classic case of the other team employing the old tricks of its opponents. Just look at what's been going on. Organized protests, accusations of compromised free speech, media condemnation of the current administration. Does any of this really seem new to you? It shouldn't.

[Guest Believer_1829]

No, Obummer promised "Hope and Change", his election in no way reflected support by Americans for his intended policies.

[Guest Godless]

No, Obummer promised "Hope and Change", his election in no way reflected support by Americans for his intended policies.

Health care reform was one of his major talking points during the campaign. Do you really think that a majority of Americans are too naive to look past campaign slogans and actually look at the issues (maybe many, but not a majority).

[Guest Believer_1829]

Health care reform was one of his major talking points during the campaign. Do you really think that a majority of Americans are too naive to look past campaign slogans and actually look at the issues (maybe many, but not a majority).

I believe, unfortunately, more people then usual were caught up in hype this last election then is the norm. Also a failure on the part of the news media to explore specifics about Obummer's policy ideas left the American public with no real idea of what he would put forward (as evidence by the opposition when his ideas actually came to fruition). Most only knew that "healthcare is broke" and "Obama wants to "fix" it"". Now they know his ideas for fixing it, and they are not impressed.

[talisyn]

Obama promised health care reform when he was running for office. If a significant number of Americans were truly opposed to this, he wouldn't have been elected. I honestly don't believe that the anti-reformists are nearly as strong or as numerous as they appear to be. Their voice has been amplified by the media, which is the only reason why they appear to have any legitimacy.

Conservatives just can't seem to get over the fact that they've found themselves in the exact same position that American liberals were in for the 8 years preceding Obama. No revolution took place under Bush, and no revolution is going to take place under Obama. This is a classic case of the other team employing the old tricks of its opponents. Just look at what's been going on. Organized protests, accusations of compromised free speech, media condemnation of the current administration. Does any of this really seem new to you? It shouldn't.

Thank you. I've been saying this for months. I've noticed the shrillest yammering voices are from those who thought Pres. Bush should have all sorts of shiny new powers and now find themselves with a left-leaning new president (not talking about anyone here, mostly talking about congressional reps and senators). Talk about a change

Revolution on schedule every 4 years. I'm not a politician so you can trust me.

[prisonchaplain]

The question then becomes (I know I'm going to hear a lot from the classic Bush hating crowd for this one) does the current government, by the people and for the people, believe that they are smarter than the people, and therefore not subject to the people? To me it appears that way.

In a sense, I sincerely hope so! I do not want my political leaders to be "thumb to the wind" poll-chasers. They ought to stand their ground and say, "Here's where I stand. If you agree, vote for me, if not throw me out." Most Democrats campaigned for change, and that's what they're pursuing. I don't agree with what their doing, and I hope they cave in to pressure, for policy reasons. But, I respect consistency, and would not accuse them of out-of-touch elitism for sticking to their guns.

[prisonchaplain]

Health care reform was one of his major talking points during the campaign. Do you really think that a majority of Americans are too naive to look past campaign slogans and actually look at the issues (maybe many, but not a majority).

While healthcare was admittedly important in Obama's campaign, I don't think it necessarily follows that this policy made his election. Most Americans want to help the truly needy, but are skeptical of this sweeping approach. It remains to be seen just how this will play out.

[bytor2112]

Obama promised health care reform when he was running for office. If a significant number of Americans were truly opposed to this, he wouldn't have been elected. I honestly don't believe that the anti-reformists are nearly as strong or as numerous as they appear to be. Their voice has been amplified by the media, which is the only reason why they appear to have any legitimacy.

Conservatives just can't seem to get over the fact that they've found themselves in the exact same position that American liberals were in for the 8 years preceding Obama. No revolution took place under Bush, and no revolution is going to take place under Obama. This is a classic case of the other team employing the old tricks of its opponents. Just look at what's been going on. Organized protests, accusations of compromised free speech, media condemnation of the current administration. Does any of this really seem new to you? It shouldn't.

According to the latest polls, Americans are declaring themselves Conservative, not liberal. The problem President Obama has is that he only won 28 states....not a huge mandate, Bush won 31 in 2004, Reagan won 49 in 1980, etc. The Democrats control both Houses, but many of the new members of Congress ran on conservative platforms and 13 of the new Democrat Senators are from states that McCain won. Obama benefited from the September market crash....McCain was leading in the polls until then. Americans were far more concerned with the economy than socializing health care. So, not a hard lean left with the electorate.

My point is that Obama has been on a spending tear and he has yet to solve the economic recession and people are still losing jobs and now he wants to revamp the way Americans receive health care and people are spooked. He should slow down. If it is a good thing, let's get it right. I am all ears, but please, prove to me that it's going to be better, cost less and GIVE ME SOME DETAILS.

Edited August 18, 2009 by bytor2112

[Maxel]

Do you really think that a majority of Americans are too naive to look past campaign slogans and actually look at the issues (maybe many, but not a majority).

I dunno about anyone else, but I have to answer "yes". Everywhere I look, people either make two mistakes: falling into partisan politics and not looking at the issues beyond "what does the party I belong to think?" or political apathy: they've so worn down by life and the economy and corrupt politics that they'll latch onto anyone who promises a release from those things.

What did Obama's campaign consist mostly of? Change! Change, no more Washington as usual. Of course there are plenty of people looking past the slogans to the real issues, but the media has control of the opinions of much of America- and is there any real doubt as to who most of the mainstream media favored during the election?

Edited August 18, 2009 by Maxel
Fix typo

[bytebear]

Obama also promised not to raise taxes, but few people think he will keep that promise, and this health care plan is only adding more doubt to that promise. I agree that people were swept up in the excitement of hope and change, and I think race played a large part of that. it was a signal that we had emerged beyond our racist past as a nation. But, I think now people are realizing that the price of absolution was higher than they wanted to pay.

[talisyn]

Obama also promised not to raise taxes, but few people think he will keep that promise, and this health care plan is only adding more doubt to that promise. I agree that people were swept up in the excitement of hope and change, and I think race played a large part of that. it was a signal that we had emerged beyond our racist past as a nation. But, I think now people are realizing that the price of absolution was higher than they wanted to pay.

I would love to say we have emerged from our racist past but news like this make me wonder

Man carrying assault weapon attends Obama protest - Yahoo! News

When guns go to political rallies reasonable discussion ends.

[spiritseeker]

In my humble opinion it's about time America enters the 21'st century. Many nations have had socialized medicine. I grew up in Germany and we knew that if you were sick you could see the doctor. Okay , maybe there was a waiting period but never the less we saw a doctor. But, I am now one of a majority of Americans who do not have health insurance. Hence I can't afford to see a doctor... So, I thank President Obama for standing his ground! Perhaps this will lose me friends around here. But , I don't care what you label it people need healthcare we are the richest nation in the world and yet its citizens go with out proper healthcare. Shame on us!!! If you want to call it socialism then I say Long live socialism!! I voted for President Obama and I think he is doing a wonderful job!

[Guest Godless]

My point is that Obama has been on a spending tear and he has yet to solve the economic recession and people are still losing jobs and now he wants to revamp the way Americans receive health care and people are spooked. He should slow down. If it is a good thing, let's get it right. I am all ears, but please, prove to me that it's going to be better, cost less and GIVE ME SOME DETAILS.

I agree that economic concerns should come before health care reform. However, the fact remains that both issues received ample discussion during the election campaign. Americans knew long before election day that health care reform was on the agenda.

As for the details, they're out there, unbiased and black-and-white. The problem is that many Americans on both sides of the spectrum are too wrapped up in the hype to learn the truth about this legislation. The way I understand it, the government model will merely be a supplement to the systems already in place. Obama may have failed miserably with his UPS/Fed-Ex/USPS analogy, but he was definitely on the right track. USPS isn't the only mail service out there, and similarly, federally-run health care will never be the only option available to Americans. It's just a supplementary measure to help those who can't afford the services of private providers.

[DigitalShadow]

According to the latest polls, Americans are declaring themselves Conservative, not liberal. The problem President Obama has is that he only won 28 states....not a huge mandate, Bush won 31 in 2004, Reagan won 49 in 1980, etc. The Democrats control both Houses, but many of the new members of Congress ran on conservative platforms and 13 of the new Democrat Senators are from states that McCain won. Obama benefited from the September market crash....McCain was leading in the polls until then. Americans were far more concerned with the economy than socializing health care. So, not a hard lean left with the electorate.

I would be genuinely curious to see some polls on what percent of people consider themselves conservative vs liberal. I don't get out of Utah much and sometimes it's hard to see through the overpowering conservativeness that is Utah.

Edit: found some Gallup poll statistics ?Conservatives? Are Single-Largest Ideological Group

Very interesting data there. I find it particularly interesting that in the 18-29 age group, there are more liberals than conservatives, which either means people become conservative with age (thankfully hasn't happened to me yet) or the statistics are going to be shifting the other way in the future.

Edited August 18, 2009 by DigitalShadow

[bytor2112]

I would be genuinely curious to see some polls on what percent of people consider themselves conservative vs liberal. I don't get out of Utah much and sometimes it's hard to see through the overpowering conservativeness that is Utah.

Edit: found some Gallup poll statistics ?Conservatives? Are Single-Largest Ideological Group

Very interesting data there. I find it particularly interesting that in the 18-29 age group, there are more liberals than conservatives, which either means people become conservative with age (thankfully hasn't happened to me yet) or the statistics are going to be shifting the other way in the future.

Here you go......

[Danite]

The Savior isn't returning on Air Force 1 and personally I don't think the American people have the stomach or the will to revolt , we have it way to easy, compared to the rest of the world.

[bytor2112]

Very interesting data there. I find it particularly interesting that in the 18-29 age group, there are more liberals than conservatives, which either means people become conservative with age (thankfully hasn't happened to me yet) or the statistics are going to be shifting the other way in the future.

You are spot on.....people tend to become more conservative with age. I would definitely have described myself as (gasp) liberal 20 years ago. What changed? Well, for me it was more life experience. Economic issues began to have real meaning because it was directly affecting me.....got a real job, family, etc. I wasn't as idealistic....became more of a realist and began to understand that the government is way too big, spends/wastes my money without any real accountability, the same problems ALWAYS seem to exist and are never really solved by government intervention. SO I began to believe in a limited role for government, lower taxes, etc. The social issues really didn't sway me until I became active in church....I just thought, why should government be involved in that?????