Christian thought

[bytor2112]

Bytor, repentence is usally done through a prayer, often at a prayer bench, and usually with a pastor or counselor who helps walk the person through it. Sometimes it is a short and simple time, and other times it can be emotional. After repentance and conversion, there is of course discipleship. New converts learn the ways of holiness, as well as the Christian disciplines of prayer, Bible study, witnessesing, etc. And chances are, within the next few weeks or so, s/he will have an opportunity to follow the Lord in water baptism.

So, if a member of your church comes to you (would they do that?) and he says, 'PC, I have been committing adultery and I am so ashamed." Do you counsel? Is confession to an ecclesiastical leader/authority necessary or can hi repentance be a private matter between him and God? Discipline?

Thanks in advance.

[prisonchaplain]

A question PC.

You just learned that you have been accepted into the Harvard Business School. You are pondering the possibilities and you would really like to go to Harvard but there is no way you could pay for the tuition let alone other expenses to go back to school. A friend of yours comes to you and offers to pay all expenses if you will promise to work for him when you finish but there is one other stipulation. The friend ask that you not indulge in pornography. Since you are not involved in pornography you accept his terms.

If there are any terms what-so-ever; can you honestly say that his offer is a “free” gift?

By being loyal to the terms; do you earn your opportunity to go to Harvard? If I were to tell you that you should not brag about not indulging in pornography that in reality the “redemption” of your expenses was really a gift – would I be basically telling the truth? Would I be literally correct?

The Traveler

Traveler, you're working so hard to demonstrate to me that our salvation is at least partially earned. So, rather than go back and forth with analogies, can you simply tell me your take on Ephesians 2:8-9?

[prisonchaplain]

So, if a member of your church comes to you (would they do that?) and he says, 'PC, I have been committing adultery and I am so ashamed." Do you counsel? Is confession to an ecclesiastical leader/authority necessary or can hi repentance be a private matter between him and God? Discipline?

Thanks in advance.

Your example is the most difficult one of all. First, no they would not need to come to me. They can go straight to God. On the other hand, there are some sins that must be confessed to the victim. There are some also that may even lead to a public confession to the church. I've heard of teenagers confessing that to a youth group that they let God and their church down by having premarital sex. She'd gotten pregnant, counseled with the youth pastor, and she wanted to make it public, so there would be no rumors and guessing. It turned into a time of great witness, and the group rallied to her support.

All that to say, the church, through counseling, and just through being a community of faith, can certainly have a role in Christian confession (as opposed to the initial repentance that leads to conversion). Ultimately though, we do give it to God.

And yes, there are times when an unrepentent church member might be asked to leave. These things are not common, but it can happen.

[prisonchaplain]

I have heard people say that you are saved if you "accept Jesus into your heart". It might at first sound trivial, but if you have actually accepted Jesus into your heart, you would not do anything that goes against God's will. If you sin, it would mean that you had not really taken Jesus into your heart in the first place.

There is truth to the power of concentrating on accepting Jesus into your heart.

70 X 7

It's a miserable way to live...being a Christian and in sin. But, some Christians do go through stretches of rebellion and sin. Thank God Peter did not give into to the depressing thought that since he thrice denied his Savior, he wasn't really saved...didn't really have Jesus in his heart. 'Cause I'm rather certain he did.

[Traveler]

I just wanted to point out that our Evangelical are not really that far off. The gift of grace that redeems us from the wages of sin (death) and overcomes the transgression of Adam and the fall of man, is a free gift of G-d.

It is interesting to me how this whole discussion gets turned around in that many LDS try to argue the need for works and the Evangelicals keep arguing it is a free gift of grace. The truth is that no works are needed. The gift of Christ is truly a free gift of grace. Because of Jesus Christ all mankind is saved from death and hell and will be resurrected from the dead, thereby overcoming the fall. This is regardless of any works of man.

The point I have tried to get someone else to catch is that the gift of Christ is free. No man need do anything, accept anything or believe anything. I am not clear because I cannot get an definite answer but it appears that Evangelicals believe that the gift of grace require works but they do not want to call the necessary works – works. As best I understand is that un-work works of faith and belief are required to earn or enable the gift of Christ but there is no admission that faith and belief earn or enable anything but without it there is no gift. The whole thing is almost comical how LDS and Evangelicals end up discussing the doctrines backwards.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

Traveler, our vision of the future...a stark choice between one heavenly kingdom, and an eternal hellfire, drives our definitions here. I understand you to believe that most all of creation will end up in one of the three heavenly kingdoms. So, certainly for the telestial kingdom, nothing at all--not even acceptance--is required for entry. It is a grace that is so complete, that even some moderate, godless sinners might make it. For us, grace is for those who receive it. The receiving of the gift is wise, but not a work, not meritorious--especially in light of Ephesians 2:8-9.

So, could it be that the core of our disagreement is not grace vs. works, but Heaven and Hell vs. the three kingdoms?

[Traveler]

Traveler, you're working so hard to demonstrate to me that our salvation is at least partially earned. So, rather than go back and forth with analogies, can you simply tell me your take on Ephesians 2:8-9?

The LDS view is very clear, simple and is the only real answer I see to the scripture. The gift of Christ is a free gift to all men. For all receive the free gift of salvation and are redeemed from the “wages” of sin and will be resurrected. It is truly a free gift and nothing we do has anything to do with that great gift of mercy from G-d. The gift of Jesus is given by faith, but it is his faith not ours.

But there is more in eternity than overcoming the wages of sin. The treasures of heaven (or blessings of eternity) must be laid up in store (earned) – That is why Jesus commanded that we lay up in store the treasures in heaven – so we will have them. The treasures of heaven are laid up in store by our works of faith, belief and love in and of G-d.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

Traveler, our vision of the future...a stark choice between one heavenly kingdom, and an eternal hellfire, drives our definitions here. I understand you to believe that most all of creation will end up in one of the three heavenly kingdoms. So, certainly for the telestial kingdom, nothing at all--not even acceptance--is required for entry. It is a grace that is so complete, that even some moderate, godless sinners might make it. For us, grace is for those who receive it. The receiving of the gift is wise, but not a work, not meritorious--especially in light of Ephesians 2:8-9.

So, could it be that the core of our disagreement is not grace vs. works, but Heaven and Hell vs. the three kingdoms?

I see our disagreement in that Evangelicals do require a work of acceptance or belief to enable the free gift of grace. Because (according to LDS understanding) all that are resurrected are resurrected to glory and because all are resurrected they receive the free gift of redemption from the wages of sin. It does not matter if they accept it or not – they will still be resurrected and brought to stand before G-d.

I am still very confused because you say it is a free gift but then you require something which makes it not free. I really do not understand your doctrine – there appears to be a contradiction but an attempt to make words mean something other than how they are used.

If anything – anything at all is required – then the gift is not free. You say it is free if it is earned by believing (but another word that means earned – like do, is substituted so you say it really does not mean that it is a qualifying duty) – that really confuses me.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

Traveler, by defining "work" so rigidly, you would appear to make the evangelical position untenable. However, if you take our understanding as a whole:

1. Heaven vs. Hell

2. Only those who believe have everlasting life (John 3:16-18)

3. We saved by grace, not works

Then salvation = heaven, and only those who believe go. Ergo, "belief" would not be considered a work, nor repentence for that matter. You insist that if you do something it's a work, yet the Old Testament standard of work was far less rigid. You could travel a certain distance on the sabbath, you could eat, talk, etc. I've been told the literal understanding of work in Hebrew is to spark a fire. So, imho, it's not evangelical theology about salvation and works that's flawed, but the extremely rigid understanding that even assent to Christ's reality is considered a labor.

[FunkyTown]

70 X 7

It's a miserable way to live...being a Christian and in sin. But, some Christians do go through stretches of rebellion and sin. Thank God Peter did not give into to the depressing thought that since he thrice denied his Savior, he wasn't really saved...didn't really have Jesus in his heart. 'Cause I'm rather certain he did.

Whoah... I just thought about this:

1) If Salvation is a free gift of God, regardless of your actions as long as you have accepted Christ as your saviour, then isn't the flip of that also true: Damnation is a free gift of God, regardless of actions as long as they have not accepted Christ as the savior?

2) If both Damnation and Salvation are free gifts of God and God knows who will and who will not accept Christ, why create people you know are going to fail and be eternally Damned? Why not just create people who will pass the test so that eternal damnation need not be suffered.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Another metaphor; If you were going to lose your house because you couldn't make the payments to the bank you would need someone to save you from losing your house. If a friend stepped in to buy the house from the bank so you could stay there are two possibilities at this time. Either the friend says, 1.) I bought it for you, here it is. or 2.) I bought it, but now you will keep it under my terms, I will charge you rent. You don't have to lose the house, that's a gift. But you still have to pay the friend back under his terms. So, there is still work even though you have the gift of the house.

I believe option 2 is more like the gift of God. You still wouldn't boast that the house is yours, because you couldn't do it without your friend. This option still satisfies the debt and allows us to have some responsibility. If it was given in whole (option 1) without any price to pay then there is no responsibility. There are many stories in the bible that imply we have at least some responsibility. I am curious how you would interpret "Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury." in the parable of the ten talents. What is meant by putting money to the exchangers? because remember in those that didn't do that work, the talent was taken away, and "cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." So, at least in my mind, if you don't work what was given, you lose it.

Another point to clarify in this discussion: PC, do you believe God and Jesus are the same person, or separate? That has to be established to talk about who is giving what gift.

[prisonchaplain]

Whoah... I just thought about this:

1) If Salvation is a free gift of God, regardless of your actions as long as you have accepted Christ as your saviour, then isn't the flip of that also true: Damnation is a free gift of God, regardless of actions as long as they have not accepted Christ as the savior?

2) If both Damnation and Salvation are free gifts of God and God knows who will and who will not accept Christ, why create people you know are going to fail and be eternally Damned? Why not just create people who will pass the test so that eternal damnation need not be suffered.

If my child does well they get smiles, kudos, and maybe even a treat. I suppose the flip side is if they do poorly they get scoldings, frowns, and restrictions. I hardly consider the latter "gifts." The short answer to your query is something you call FREE AGENCY.

[Traveler]

If my child does well they get smiles, kudos, and maybe even a treat. I suppose the flip side is if they do poorly they get scoldings, frowns, and restrictions. I hardly consider the latter "gifts." The short answer to your query is something you call FREE AGENCY.

You may have missed the question? Perhaps if it was asked in a different way. Why would G-d deliberately and knowing create someone with only the capacity and propensity to fail and lacking whatever it is in others that you created and know will succeed? Then give them their agency knowing what great destruction will come upon them – take no responsibility what-so-ever for having all control with no other input to create a failure; blaming only what you alone created, damning them to eternal hell and calling yourself good, loving and compassionate?

Why not just create all men to succeed or not give agency to the one’s that will not succeed like all other things you made in creation?

Even with your own children if there was something that you would give them so that they could succeed on their own with their agency – would you not do that? Why won’t G-d do it – unless there is a reason that he can’t?

The Traveler

Edited October 1, 2009 by Traveler

[Hemidakota]

Perhaps Heavenly Father can give us a hug every so often....as we do as a parent to our own children. :)

[ViolinGirl]

I guess you could call me an "Evangelical." I believe that in order to get to heaven, you need to accept Christ as your savior AND I believe that 'good works' are also necessary. Our pastor reminded us a few ago that faith without works is nothing. To me, that means my faith is useless unless I do something constructive with it. Why bother to accept Christ if you're not willing to try to live the life He's commanded you to?

[Justice]

Whoah... I just thought about this:

1) If Salvation is a free gift of God, regardless of your actions as long as you have accepted Christ as your saviour, then isn't the flip of that also true: Damnation is a free gift of God, regardless of actions as long as they have not accepted Christ as the savior?

2) If both Damnation and Salvation are free gifts of God and God knows who will and who will not accept Christ, why create people you know are going to fail and be eternally Damned? Why not just create people who will pass the test so that eternal damnation need not be suffered.

Funky, that has been one of my major concerns with that doctrine for over 30 years now.

I must admit, I have a hard time separating who will be saved and who will not be if NOTHING is required.

If one does nothing they go to hell. On the other hand, if one does nothing they are saved.

I don't have a supreme intellect, yet even I can see where that is neither fair, nor is it taught in the Bible.

I think PC missed some of my questions on a previous page, but I'm not sure there's not an answer anyway.

Edited October 1, 2009 by Justice

[Justice]

If my child does well they get smiles, kudos, and maybe even a treat. I suppose the flip side is if they do poorly they get scoldings, frowns, and restrictions. I hardly consider the latter "gifts." The short answer to your query is something you call FREE AGENCY.

But, you say none of what the child does brings any merit whatsoever. A child can act or do (or not do) anything it pleases and reap a reward because Christ atoned for their sins.

If you don't have to do anything to be saved, then all would be saved (like resurrection--all are resurrected regardless of what they do, or it doesn't require action on man's part).

If there is no condition placed on exaltation then God would save all men, would He not?

According to your belief the answer would have to be no... because there are no conditions placed on "being saved" yet not all will be saved. The only possible explanation is that God chooses, since there are only 2 in the equation. If man cannot do anything to merit the choice, then God must make it alone.

But, again, if God could save ONE man by His choice, with nothing from the man, then He could and would save ALL men.

It's a vicious circle with no real answer.

Edited October 1, 2009 by Justice

[prisonchaplain]

Another metaphor; If you were going to lose your house because you couldn't make the payments to the bank you would need someone to save you from losing your house. If a friend stepped in to buy the house from the bank so you could stay there are two possibilities at this time. Either the friend says, 1.) I bought it for you, here it is. or 2.) I bought it, but now you will keep it under my terms, I will charge you rent. You don't have to lose the house, that's a gift. But you still have to pay the friend back under his terms. So, there is still work even though you have the gift of the house.

The house is a mansion, and I could never pay Him back adaquately. Worse yet, not only was I about to go bankrupt over this, but I was seriously upside down on my loan (the house is worse less than the loan). My only hope is a total bailout. Out of gratitude though, I'll follow the financial counsel of my friend and benefactor from this day forward.

There are many stories in the bible that imply we have at least some responsibility. I am curious how you would interpret "Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury." in the parable of the ten talents. What is meant by putting money to the exchangers? because remember in those that didn't do that work, the talent was taken away, and "cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." So, at least in my mind, if you don't work what was given, you lose it.

I take it to mean I should invest my salvation--if I don't I'll lose it. But, my good works, my diligence are in response to and a product of my conversion--not prerequisites.

Another point to clarify in this discussion: PC, do you believe God and Jesus are the same person, or separate? That has to be established to talk about who is giving what gift.

They are distinct persons.

[prisonchaplain]

You may have missed the question? Perhaps if it was asked in a different way. Why would G-d deliberately and knowing create someone with only the capacity and propensity to fail and lacking whatever it is in others that you created and know will succeed?

You presume predestination here...that we are incapable of choosing to follow God. Scripture tells us that whosoever will may come. Whoever believes in Jesus will be saved. Choose this day whom you will serve. Repent for the time is at hand! We are capable of accepting God's gift--everyone is. Do you not call this free agency?

Then give them their agency knowing what great destruction will come upon them – take no responsibility what-so-ever for having all control with no other input to create a failure; blaming only what you alone created, damning them to eternal hell and calling yourself good, loving and compassionate?

Are you questioning God? He gives us free will. Everyone is capable of loving him. Those who willfully reject their Creator have no excuse. Romans 1 declares that man is without execuse.

Why not just create all men to succeed or not give agency to the one’s that will not succeed like all other things you made in creation?

A human without free agency is not human. God wanted humans.

Even with your own children if there was something that you would give them so that they could succeed on their own with their agency – would you not do that? Why won’t G-d do it – unless there is a reason that he can’t?

The Traveler

If we could not fail then we would not be human.

[prisonchaplain]

Funky, that has been one of my major concerns with that doctrine for over 30 years now.

I must admit, I have a hard time separating who will be saved and who will not be if NOTHING is required.

Nothing is required to accept the gift of salvation. But truly accepting it will change one's life. There will be fruit--love and yes, good works.

If one does nothing they go to hell. On the other hand, if one does nothing they are saved.

Hell is for those who die in their sins. Heaven is for those who live in Christ's love. Their lives will be dramatically different.

I don't have a supreme intellect, yet even I can see where that is neither fair, nor is it taught in the Bible.

I think PC missed some of my questions on a previous page, but I'm not sure there's not an answer anyway.

What's not fair? The damned pay for their sins, the redeemed accept Christ's sacrifice as payment for their sins, and they embrace his life.

[Justice]

Hell is for those who die in their sins. Heaven is for those who live in Christ's love. Their lives will be dramatically different.

You're mincing words.

If you die in your sins you have done nothing; no works of God.

In order to live in Christ's love you MUST do something.

Yes, their lives will be dramatically different because those who live in Christ's love chose to repent and keep God's commandments. Those who die in their sins did not make that choice.

In order to not die in your sins you must do something. Whatever it is, it definately is a work that you chose, and those who die in their sins did not.

The only other possible answer is that God is responsible for everything. And, in that case all could be saved.

[Justice]

What's not fair?

According to you, neither side did anything. Why is one damned and one saved?

[prisonchaplain]

Justice, believing in Christ, receiving the gift of salvation, repenting of sins...these are not works. They are realizations. We don't buy our salvation. We don't pay for it. We get it, and then work it out.

[Moksha]

We don't buy our salvation. We don't pay for it. We get it, and then work it out.

Yeah, but sooner or later some angel named Vinnie comes knocking at you cloud wanting payback plus 20%.

[Justice]

Justice, believing in Christ, receiving the gift of salvation, repenting of sins...these are not works. They are realizations. We don't buy our salvation. We don't pay for it. We get it, and then work it out.

So, why do some have it and others not?

God offers these gifts freely to all. TO ALL.

I'm not trying to be difficult, but I really don't see how you can say they "do these things" but they don't do anything.