The Great Apostasy- Why?

[E-NOS]

I've been attending Miss Prep lately and we've been going through Preach My Gospel. In section 3 Lesson 1, there's a subheading called "Heavenly Father Reveals His Gospel in Every Dispensation." We were talking about how God loves His children enough to want to guide them through all times of history. The first paragraph actually states "One important way that God shows His love for us is by calling prophets, who are given the priesthood."

My question is if God loves us to call living prophets, why did there need to "come a falling away" (2 Thessalonians 2:3) and the Great Apostasy? Why couldn't there have been some sort of restoration before America.

I know many people say that a country with religious freedom had to be established first, but He's God. couldn't he have called someone before then and kept the church on the earth?

[pam]

Great talk by Elder Russell M. Nelson concerning this:

LDS.org - Liahona Article - The Gathering of Scattered Israel

[tubaloth]

My question is if God loves us to call living prophets, why did there need to "come a falling away" (2 Thessalonians 2:3) and the Great Apostasy? Why couldn't there have been some sort of restoration before America.

I know many people say that a country with religious freedom had to be established first, but He's God. couldn't he have called someone before then and kept the church on the earth?

God COULD have done anything he wanted. If he wanted to restore the church sooner He could have. Your point is well taking. But God didn't do it that way. We have to trust God knew what he was doing, and Restored the Church as Soon as possible.

But I don't think he could have done it much sooner.

[pam]

Wasn't Joseph Smith foreordained to restore the gospel in this dispensation? And to restore the true Church and that would be when the Priesthood was once again restored upon the earth?

[bytebear]

Yes, I believe he was, as was every major prophet (i.e. every prophet that ushered in a dispensation). It's an interesting study, sensationalism. We think of main prophets, Adam, Moses, Enoch, etc.,) but there may have been other major prophets that we don't yet know about (as in we didn't know about Lehi until the translation of the Book of Mormon). So, there are times when God leaves man to his own understanding, and times when God sends prophets. I think it has to do with either an event or activity that needs leadership, or when the people are prepared to hear the word of God. Sometimes they are not the same though (as in Noah).

[livy111us]

Isaiah 5:2-6 gives a great explanation why the Lord did this. Because of the wickedness of the people, the Gospel was removed.

"And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break

down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down. And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned,

nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they

rain no rain upon it."

[rameumptom]

Alma 29:8 tells us that God gives to all people the amount of truth they are willing to receive. An apostasy happened because the people were not willing nor able to accept the fullness.

This has happened before. Even at Mt Sinai, the Israelites rejected the fullness of the gospel and Melch Priesthood, and so were left with a lesser truth and priesthood (Mosaic Law and Levitical Priesthood).

The Great Apostasy occurred, not because of anything God chose to do, but because he allowed people to accept or reject his gospel. History shows that even before the death of the apostles, divisions were starting to crop up in the Christian Church. Paul warned of grievous wolves that would enter into the flock after his departure. John's Revelation chews out several of the 7 Churches in Asia - perhaps the only ones left, worthy enough to be called God's church.

After their death, it got worse. Many people claimed to have the secrets of the apostles. Pseudo books with prophets and apostles' names on them cropped up. In fact, most scholars agree that all of the NT gospels were written decades later, and that about 1/2 of the Pauline Epistles were actually written by Paul.

In an attempt to get a handle on Christianity and its diverging sects, the proto-orthodoxy canonized a handful of religious books, creating the Bible. They rejected out of hand any new revelation or miracle as being non-canonical. Suddenly, they had cut themselves off from God's revelation, and ended up having to create committees of bishops to determine creeds and rules. Without revelation, concepts such as the Trinity, praying to saints, predestination, limited atonement, and baptizing babies came about.

Even today, amidst this great Restoration, there is a Great Apostasy that continues, as billions believe in lesser truths and error, with most rejecting the message brought by our missionaries and members.

[Hemidakota]

Wasn't Joseph Smith foreordained to restore the gospel in this dispensation? And to restore the true Church and that would be when the Priesthood was once again restored upon the earth?

We can be assured this probably occurred after the plan of salvation where the Son was given the authority to call forth His ‘friends’ [who stood by the Begotten of the FATHER] in given them assigned callings. I do believe Abraham spoke lightly of it in the Book of Abraham with those GOD chosen among all of HIS children.

We can assume, there was more than one pre-mortal council given that we are not written.

[beefche]

I've been attending Miss Prep lately and we've been going through Preach My Gospel. In section 3 Lesson 1, there's a subheading called "Heavenly Father Reveals His Gospel in Every Dispensation." We were talking about how God loves His children enough to want to guide them through all times of history. The first paragraph actually states "One important way that God shows His love for us is by calling prophets, who are given the priesthood."

My question is if God loves us to call living prophets, why did there need to "come a falling away" (2 Thessalonians 2:3) and the Great Apostasy? Why couldn't there have been some sort of restoration before America.

I know many people say that a country with religious freedom had to be established first, but He's God. couldn't he have called someone before then and kept the church on the earth?

If you keep reading in Preach My Gospel in that section you will read that there have been many times the world fell into apostasy. One time was right before Jesus was born. So, apostasy wasn't anything "new".

Further, in Preach My Gospel, in the same chapter, there is a section called "The Great Apostasy" where it goes into more detail about the last apostasy (the one I think you are referring).

Keep reading and studying the scriptures provided in Preach My Gospel. Here's the church website that can give you some more talks, scriptures, etc to study.

[thankfull]

We know this is the last dispensation and the fullness of times and that this land and time was prepared for the foundation of this great church to never be taken away again. Knowing what Mosiah taught us of kings and the corruption and evil they might bring. How a evil monarchy would pervert and change the ways of the Lord and lead people to sin.. The bible is proof of this. I also believe as was stated above that the people were not willing or obedient enough to allow the blessings of the gopel during that time. I am sure however that their were good people and examples are those who gave their life in preserving and publishing the bible as best they could.

"trust no man to be your teacher except he be a man of God, and keep his commandments" Evidently the majority of the people hearts were hardened and would not have been obedient to a prophet during this time. We must continually recognize the importance of this time and how blessed we are to live during this last dispensation.

[mnn727]

God could force us to do whatever He wanted us to, but then there would be no sense in this earthly existance for us, we are here to learn and grow and freedom to choose is a required part of that growth, even if its bad choices and wickedness, In order not to force us God had to wait for conditions to be right, he knew they were coming and he knew that those that died never hearing the gospel would have a chance in the spirit world to hear it.

Satan wanted to force us, God allows us freedom, even if he knows we will mess up. The apostacy was mankinds fault. God restored teh fullness of teh Gospel as quickly as He could without trampling over mankinds agency

Edited October 2, 2009 by mnn727

[thecourt]

The last poster is correct. Force is contrary to the plan. No one is going to forced to come unto Christ.

[Vort]

God could force us to do whatever He wanted us to

I believe this is false. Could God force us to be exalted? Clearly not.

Satan wanted to force us

Again, I believe this is false. Satan wants to destroy us, as he has wanted to do since he fell. I know of no scripture suggesting that Satan tried to "force us" to do anything -- unless you mean he wishes to destroy our agency. In that case, I agree.

The apostacy was mankinds fault. God restored teh fullness of teh Gospel as quickly as He could without trampling over mankinds agency

I was going to object to your wording, but in fact I think you've touched on a deep and important truth that I am only just beginning to understand. Exaltation, salvation, indeed existence itself, seem to be communal efforts. No single entity called "mankind" will be judged before the bar of God or receive its single everlasting inheritance, yet in some manner our progress as individuals is circumscribed and even defined by our progress as a species. I still don't know what to make of this, but it seems to be a true principle.

[pam]

I'm not sure I believe the comment that Satan wanted to force us is entirely incorrect. Satan's plan was to take away our agency and therefore all would return to our Heavenly Father. Would that not in some way be force?

[mnn727]

I'm not sure I believe the comment that Satan wanted to force us is entirely incorrect. Satan's plan was to take away our agency and therefore all would return to our Heavenly Father. Would that not in some way be force?

Exactly, Satans plan would have brought everyone back by forcing them to be rightous - this plan was rejected by our wise Father in Heaven as it would have prevented our freedom to choose.

[mnn727]

I believe this is false. Could God force us to be exalted? Clearly not.

.

Why not, that was Satans plan, are you saying that Satan was more powerful than God. God could take away our agency and force us all to become exalted - of course in doing so it would be an empty victory all around.

[Vort]

Satan's plan was to take away our agency and therefore all would return to our Heavenly Father. Would that not in some way be force?

I don't believe the scriptures ever teach that Satan had any such "plan". The only teaching I find that bears any slight resemblance to what you have said is that Satan proposed a modification to the Father's plan in order to usurp his glory:

And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.

Of course, Satan had no way to make good on his claim; he was lying, as should come as no surprise to us.

As I said before, I concede that, if you refer to Satan's desire to destroy our agency as an attempt to "force" us, then that might qualify.

[Vort]

I believe this is false. Could God force us to be exalted? Clearly not.

Why not, that was Satans plan,

I see no evidence that Satan had a "plan" beyond usurping the glory of God. If you can teach me the scriptures that tell of this Satanic plan, I would love to hear.

are you saying that Satan was more powerful than God. God could take away our agency and force us all to become exalted - of course in doing so it would be an empty victory all around.

No, he could not do so. Suggesting he could do so betrays a misunderstanding of what exaltation means. Compare Alma's teachings to his son Corianton about the meaning of "restoration".

[mnn727]

We have to agree to disagree on this one.

[Vort]

We have to agree to disagree on this one.

I have noticed a tendency among some here (and other places) to say "let's agree to disagree" whenever they can't substantiate their argument. As near as I can tell, "let's agree to disagree" really means "I don't believe you, but I can't disprove what you say or buttress my own arguments, so instead of admitting that I might be wrong, I'd rather drop the whole topic."

Which is fine, as far as it goes, but it doesn't seem to me a very useful way to find truth.

Can you imagine if Pasteur's contemporaries had said, "Let's just agree to disagree about this 'microbiology' stuff"?

Edited October 6, 2009 by Vort

[mnn727]

You have your interpretation/opinion of scripture and I have mine, you can't argue interpretation or opinion. I see that verse you quoted as ample proof of my veiwpoint and apparently you see it as proof of yours. You have proven nothing to me to support your argument, and I have proven nothing to you, we are at a stalemate - hence my saying we will have to agree to disagree.

I guess we could degrade to calling each other names I guess, but thats about all thats left and I for one will refrain.

Edited October 6, 2009 by mnn727