Age of Accountability

[beefche]

I like how you have put the word 'many' into what you are saying now.

Before we were both speaking as though it is for all 8 year olds. Guess that was the problem

Now you are saying that there are 'SOME' eight year olds. That is not what you were saying earlier.

I am sorry. I telling the truth another attack?

Joker, you really should read the posts. Pam was trying to counter your assumption that 8 y/o cannot make a decision regarding baptism. Quit trying to make a point that isn't there.

[TheJoker]

By the age of 8 they should have learned that these things are not appropriate

I just don't understand those that have a hard time with the age of 8.

you underestimate children at that age.

I'll leave this discussion now. My argument wasn't meant to be children not knowing at 8. But all members being baptized at an age where they all would be ready. Such as 12.

But in any case. I can't seem to express my opinion without attacking someone. Goodnight.

[pam]

Sorry..none of those quotes prove your point.

[TheJoker]

Quit trying to make a point that isn't there.

The point is there. Maybe i didn't explain it too well. Doesn't mean it's not there.

It's 4:30am here So give me a break.

[TheJoker]

Sorry..none of those quotes prove your point.

Stop Attacking me!

Funnily enough. They do. You just can't seem to see it.

[pam]

Let's just say I disagree. But I'm done. I'll just once again bide my time.

[Justice]

I fail to see the meaning of that? Are you assuming because you are older you must know more?

Experience is worth all the education in the world, my young friend.

It's not about being older in years, but older and more mature in experience.

There is only one way to know, and that's to get older and have those experiences.

[Justice]

I think being baptized at 8 is a lot like what both of you are saying.

Is it too early for one to understand even much of what it means? Certainly. I'm not sure we ever fully comprehend what baptism really is.

But, at the same time, we need to start some where... maybe a good place is at the beginning? At age 8 one begins to recognize their actions in relation to others. They begin to understand consequences.

Just like on the first day of the week we can renew our baptismal covenants. If you're like me, you have learned a lot about those covenants since your baptism day. But, that comes from experience, not just years. Even people who are baptized at age 40 learn much about their baptism as they mature in the Gospel.

Baptism isn't the end, it's the beginning. 8 seems like a good age to start to me. :)

[Moksha]

Perhaps there are two separate issues in talking about the age of accountability.

1. The baptism of Children when they are eight y/o and whether they are

just doing what is expected of them. Makes me wonder about my own daughter, she verbalizes her thoughts and feelings well - but if asked to describe the meaning and significance of baptism, her understanding would be rudimentary at best. It did please us when she was baptized at eight and I was happy to be doing it.

2. Whether eight year olds can realistically be accountable for their misdeeds. During school years, my friends and I would frequently do things that we suspected adults would not approve of, but we did them anyway because it was fun. We really didn't have good judgment in these actions. We were young and dumb. Looking back, I can see that those misdeeds were both stupid and dangerous. Thank goodness for the chance to repent.

.

[Seminarysnoozer]

A child today at the age of 8, I think has more education than most had in their whole life during Jesus' time. An 8 year old today could easily, just like Jesus, sit with the doctors of that time and listen to them and ask them questions and astonish them with their understanding. Haven't we all watched, "Are you smarter than a 5th grader?" My two children that are older than 8, read the entire Book of Mormon and New Testament before they were baptized at the age of 8.

[Generally_Me]

At age 8, it seems, a child has been processing and understands "milk". They may not get the "meat" until much later, but then (as Beefche said) getting baptized at 18 doesn't mean that they are ready for "meat" yet either. Baptism is just a starting point, a covenant to try to follow the Gospel, to ask forgiveness when you do wrong. Other covenants come later, which is why you have to be older/more spiritually advanced to have the priesthood, get your endowments and be sealed.

There is a woman in my temple prep class who is quite a lot older than me. We'll just say she is a widow after 20 years of marriage and leave it at that. She was baptized about a year ago, after 2 years or so of study, fellowshipping and missionary discussions. She has been having a hard time with some of the concepts and at times seems rather "childlike" in her understanding and beliefs.

Cons: she didn't know exactly what she was promising when she was baptized.

Pros: She has so much wonderful stuff to learn! Comforts regarding her family, regarding God's mercy and justice, regarding how wonderful it feels to go through the repentance process daily. She has been an inspiration so far, to me anyway.

[Justice]

Beefche said that too? Oops, sorry, I guess I should read more carefully.

GMTA

[Hemidakota]

Experience is worth all the education in the world, my young friend.

It's not about being older in years, but older and more mature in experience.

There is only one way to know, and that's to get older and have those experiences.

Excellent wisdom...

[TheJoker]

Excellent wisdom...

Not really. It's just one of those things that people 'assume' to be fact.

1. I assume that Scientists are not all over the age of 50.

2. Stephen Hawking is not the oldest man in the world. But the smartest.

And as for Wisdom. Wisdom comes from experience. But assuming that age = more wisdom is simply not true.

My Granded has had many experiences. But is a clear racist. That come from Wisdom?

[Hemidakota]

Not really. It's just one of those things that people 'assume' to be fact.

1. I assume that Scientists are not all over the age of 50.

2. Stephen Hawking is not the oldest man in the world. But the smartest.

And as for Wisdom. Wisdom comes from experience. But assuming that age = more wisdom is simply not true.

My Granded has had many experiences. But is a clear racist. That come from Wisdom?

If one gauge his/her life after the world then you are correct. I do not! Nor I consider anyone in this world a genius when truth in the end will correct fables. We do know, the world will fail and fall as John seen [book of Revelation].

If I could look at two examples of two children, I guess being age of 12 [the Savior] is not consider enough time for wisdom or perhaps, age of 14 [Joseph Smith] is not enough to reach a level of wisdom that many in the church has not reached or may not reach in mortality?

It is expected with anyone in the gospel, as you age, you are expected to at least gain wisdom in those experiences.

[TheJoker]

If one gauge his/her life after the world then you are correct. I do not! Nor I consider anyone in this world a genius when truth in the end will correct fables. We do know, the world will fail and fall as John seen [book of Revelation].

'We' don't know anything. 'You' believe something.

If I could look at two examples of two children, I guess being age of 12 [the Savior] is not consider enough time for wisdom or perhaps,

Jesus was perfect. So that doesn't matter as his wisdom would already be pretty much better than any other in human existance. Joseph on the other hand is different. I guess it's what you believe his chuldhood consisted of.

age of 14 [Joseph Smith] is not enough to reach a level of wisdom that many in the church has not reached or may not reach in mortality?

Joseph on the other hand is different. I guess it's what you believe his chuldhood consisted of.

It is expected with anyone in the gospel, as you age, you are expected to at least gain wisdom in those experiences.

The same is true for life in general. But it's not always the case.

[LDSVALLEY]

Guess what we can have all the opinion we want. We can try to figure out if age 8 is appropriate or not. Maybe it should be 2,6,14 or 20 it does not matter.

The Lord has set the age.

Knowing that not every eight year old will be ready he put in place an interview to insure they are ready.

What we think, say, believe, desire is beside the point.

Why specifically eight...The Lord only knows!

[Gramajane]

I feel that being accountable at age eight is right-- as they have usually gotten the "reasoning thing" down well enough- (and as Satan is after them to make downward leading choices it totally then works to have them baptized and confirmed at that age as then they can have the companionship of the Holy Ghost to guide them, because they have received the GIFT of the H.G. by the laying on of hands by one with the proper priesthood authority. --- I'm just thankful that we also have the miracle gift of repentance!

[Hemidakota]

Guess what we can have all the opinion we want. We can try to figure out if age 8 is appropriate or not. Maybe it should be 2,6,14 or 20 it does not matter.

The Lord has set the age.

Knowing that not every eight year old will be ready he put in place an interview to insure they are ready.

What we think, say, believe, desire is beside the point.

Why specifically eight...The Lord only knows!

Exactly my point...what the Godhead mandated, that is the final word. It does not matter what members in the church or those of the world think or say.

President Spencer W. Kimball once stated -

"Parents must prepare children for baptism. The scripture says that parents shall teach their children to pray and walk uprightly before the Lord. And if they haven't taught their children the law of baptism and confirmation, and to do right by the time they are eight years of age, then the sin will be upon the heads of the parents. (D&C 68:25-28.) Now, that does not say parents start to teach the child at eight. It should have been done by the time the child is eight years of age. By then the child should have received many of the concepts that will be an important part of his life. So you will already have had your child taught and trained in honesty, uprightness, integrity, and cleanliness; in the love of the Lord and his fellowmen; and in all the things that a grown person should know. He should know much of it before he is eight. Then, when he is eight, he is clean, he is sweet, he is free from immorality or sins of any kind; and the father leads him to the baptismal font, perhaps, or baptizes him himself. My father baptized me. I baptized all my children, with the permission of the bishop, who has the responsibility, of course. We don't go and do it ourselves without authority. " (Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball by Spencer W. Kimball,76-35)

Even our teaching the child between good and evil does not start at the age of eight. It starts as they are born into this world. Edited October 16, 2009 by Hemidakota

[Hemidakota]

I feel that being accountable at age eight is right-- as they have usually gotten the "reasoning thing" down well enough- (and as Satan is after them to make downward leading choices it totally then works to have them baptized and confirmed at that age as then they can have the companionship of the Holy Ghost to guide them, because they have received the GIFT of the H.G. by the laying on of hands by one with the proper priesthood authority. --- I'm just thankful that we also have the miracle gift of repentance!

Agreed...what a miraculous event in anyone’s life.

Some added thought here by Lowell L. Bennion -

Baptism is for those who can repent, and who are capable and desirous of being baptized as a witness of their faith in Jesus Christ. Therefore, we do not baptize infants or people who are handicapped mentally to such an extent that they do not participate meaningfully in their own baptism.

In a revelation to Joseph Smith, the age of eight is given as the appropriate age for baptizing children who have been reared and taught the Gospel of Christ by parents in the Church. Parents are admonished in earnest words to teach their children and to prepare them for baptism.

And again, inasmuch as parents have children in Zion, or in any of her stakes which are organized, that teach them not to understand the doctrine of repentance, faith in Christ the Son of the living God, and of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of the hands, when eight years old, the sin be upon the heads of the parents. For this shall be a law unto the inhabitants of Zion, or in any of her stakes which are organized. And their children shall be baptized for the remission of their sins when eight years old, and receive the laying on of the hands. And they shall also teach their children to pray, and to walk uprightly before the Lord. And the inhabitants of Zion shall also observe the Sabbath day to keep it holy. (D&C 68:25-29)

The age of eight may seem a little young to some for baptism. Let it be remembered that this applies only to those who have been reared in the faith and also that it is voluntary on the part of the child. And there are good reasons, in our judgment, for this arrangement. A child of eight cannot grasp the full meaning of Christian discipleship. For that matter, who can, be he forty or sixty or seventy? But a child of eight can think for himself, make choices, and has considerable capacity to be a follower of Jesus. He has a child-like faith, a goodly amount of teachability, is often quick to forgive, and has capacity to love the Savior. Certainly, he is in a position to enter into Christian discipleship and to learn more of Christian faith and virtue. A child of eight needs the feeling of belonging to the community, of being accepted into warm fellowship by friends and neighbors and by adults who love him. Fellowship and responsibility in the Church will sustain him through the interesting but trying years of adolescence as he grows into maturity and adulthood.